09-07-2001 03:05									#1
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In solo play,difficulty level greatly effects battle outcomes.Much better #s on king as opposed to deity for instance.
Does this apply to MP?

It seems to me that the game uses king level #s as far as human controlled units are concerned but then again I get some awfully odd outcomes sometimes which remind me of a deity level warrior that beats an archer on hills.

	09-07-2001 17:44									#2
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This might not be true but I have the feeling that king favors the defence whereas deity favors the offense.
This is definitly true with the barbs. Never let a barb attack you at deity, always attack him, even with a warrior

	09-07-2001 18:53									#3
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barbs have 150% defence and attack on diety, at king they have 50% of what a normal unit has

	09-07-2001 19:45									#4
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I thought that on Deity, that the barb bonus was only on attack, not defense.

RAH

	10-07-2001 04:50									#5
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hmmm...I wonder if the host has different #s than others.The game still kinda revolves around the host's civ.Would non hosts be considered ais by the game?

I find that regardless of level,things seem to favor the defender.You really need superior tech to launch most successful invasions.Even then I've lost many a dragoon to pikes for example.Thens theres those darn 2x cities on hills and what not.I think its time to join the trade loving doves in MP

I always try to hit barbs first unless fortified vet on good defensive terrain.They don't have defensive bonus.Maybe 50% under normal conditions.They seem to attack with normal #s with the occasional veteran.As compared to my units anyways.
My warriors always lose.Almost always.I'll use them to weaken and once in a blue moon I get to say "Yes!"

	10-07-2001 05:37									#6
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play me in a wargame.

	10-07-2001 05:56									#7
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quote: Originally posted by rah I thought that on Deity, that the barb bonus was only on attack, not defense. RAH

You're right. It's 25% (of attack strength) at Chief level; 50% at Warlord; 75% at Prince; 100% at King; 125% at Emperor; 150% at Deity. Defence factors don't change with difficulty levels. In theory, anyway. Sometimes I wonder.

	10-07-2001 18:27									#8
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hmmm...I wonder if the host has different #s than others.The game still kinda revolves around the host's civ.Would non hosts be considered ais by the game?

As far as barbs are concerned. NO

Barbs never seem to be able to kill any AI units, but in our games the barbs trash all the players. So I think No. And since I've won my fair share of battles and lost my fair share of battles. I would also say NO for military units.

I usually host so I believe I have enough experience to properly judge. But feel free to run hours and hours of extensive tests to verify it, please feel free.

The sneak attack bonus is something else.

RAH

	10-07-2001 22:09									#9
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quote: But feel free to run hours and hours of extensive tests to verify it, please feel free.

um...I'll get right on it

So if I am plotting an attack should I be thinking king level AI as far as defensive abilities?

	10-07-2001 22:36									#10
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Except for the very first unit attack, NO.

Everything will play straight up. I keep forgetting what everyone thinks the sneak attack bonus is, but I seem to believe 50% added offense is about right. Now if you could sucker someone into peace after the first attack, attack again, make more peace, and attack again.......... I would claim you as the world's greatest diplomat.

RAH

I really thought you'd want to test it.

	10-07-2001 22:48									#11
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I don't know where or when I said, but I know I don't believe in the common thought of "Host Advantage" as thoroughly as I once did.

I know, I know. Sometimes Host gets extra tech and we restart, but from what I think I'm beginning to see is that is you get extra techs, it's because you're about to get it in the backside some other way. Probably in having bad starting position.
Also, some of the techs I might get as Host, I notice are not white, so doesn't that mean someone else got, too?
If Host has three techs even, and they're not white, has he truly Host Advantage from that perspective?

Erroneous, or has anyone else thought along these lines?

	11-07-2001 01:27									#12
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Of course its a huge advantage.Free starting techs are always blue.

I can't beleive some are still not restarting for host techs.About a million years ago Bird and I let Rah have bronze as a bunch of restarts was not going too well.One tech in the hands of a good player is pretty much the game.He blasted to Monarchy and never looked back.It doesn't seem like much but...let alone 3 or 4.

	11-07-2001 16:37									#13
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Yep Smash, even a single tech is a heck of an advantage.
Does anybody not reset when the host gets a tech anymore?

After hundreds and hundreds games as the host, I've seen no pattern between what you see on the opening screen and the number (if any) of free techs. However, We do play on tiny worlds with large continents so everyone starts close to each other. I think the software and I dissagree on what constitutes a bad start that requires a few techs to make it even. I've started on an artic plain in the middle of nowhere and not recieved and free techs. And then started in the middle of a fours special pattern and recieved 3 free techs. It seems more determined by the distance to the closest other civ. Since I think the program thinks it's good for you to be close to one civ for early contact it won't give you techs if you start 10 squares away from someone. (in MP I don't consider that a good thing) But If you're all alone (which is what I prefer) it thinks POOR Player and rewards him with a few techs to make up for it.

I think the color you choose has a bigger impact than any hosting difference.

RAH
Ramblings of an old man.

	12-07-2001 21:30									#14
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A little off subject but I will post it here anyway. A while back in a thread I had mentioned that I had thought I had remembered getting starting techs as non-host. Others responded that this was impossible (i think RAH and Ming were among them but it was pretty much universal). Well last night I was playing a game with Slowwhand as host and I started with pottery. I have the save if anyone is interested and I am sure Slowwhand will verify it also. I'll admit it doesn't happen often ( first time since that thread probably 2 months ago) but it did happen.

BACK ON SUBJECT
When I host I announce any starting techs I get and let players decide if they want to restart. Believe it or not quite often they don't want to.

	12-07-2001 22:58									#15
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Very interesting DD. I assume it was a random start. Yes it would be interesting to see the initial starting save. Unless everyone that plays when I host lies , I've never seen it in over a thousand games/restarts.

I can't believe that people are OK with the host having a tech. Man, give me a freebie and I'll go to town. (especially if it's on the path to monarchy) They must really like what they see on the screen when they agree to it, but it is surprising that all would agree, since usually someone has something to ***** about.

Granted restart after restart gets annoying but I can only remember a dozen or so starts that took more than 5 resets. And none took more than 8. So if the people are trained well, it only adds 5-10 minutes to a game (if that). More than worth it to equalize the start as much as possible.

RAH

	12-07-2001 23:32									#16
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I know you can get tech as non host if you hot-join but I have never seen any free tech as a non host when I was in from the start.

you may be tempted when a host has 1 tech and you see a river and whale in your start,But chances are the world has good terrain also.

	12-07-2001 23:40									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Smash Of course its a huge advantage.Free starting techs are always blue. I can't beleive some are still not restarting for host techs.About a million years ago Bird and I let Rah have bronze as a bunch of restarts was not going too well.One tech in the hands of a good player is pretty much the game.He blasted to Monarchy and never looked back.It doesn't seem like much but...let alone 3 or 4.

Read and try to comprehend the whole statement.
I think there's a trade off of sorts. Maybe not, but I don't think you can say with absolution that there isn't.
And yes, other players can get techs and settlers too; not just the host, so your outrage is even more amusing.

	13-07-2001 00:01									#18
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"other players can get techs and settlers too"

AHHHH, you're talking about games lower than Deity.

In Deity, everyone always gets two settlers, and we've never seen a non-host get a tech. (we'll see about the earlier post)


DD, was that a deity game.

Short of seeing gold next to a river basin and 2 huts in the opening, i'd never agree to one freebie, never ever two

	13-07-2001 00:46									#19
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quote: Originally posted by rah DD, was that a deity game.

I don't remember - I'll have to check. I usually play deity, thus my name, but sometimes on the zone I'll play other settings.

Another thing I have seen happen as a non-host (and i will save if it happens again) is starting 3rd or worse on demographics for literacy. This would imply to me that someone other then the host has techs, although I have never verified it.

PS. I agree any free tech is HUGE (even if it is off of the Monarchy path) I'll even take warrior code - archers without having to go off the tech path are a nice luxury early in the game.

	13-07-2001 00:56									#20
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"Another thing I have seen happen as a non-host (and i will save if it happens again) is starting 3rd or worse on demographics for literacy. "

My question on this one would be "Any AIs"


Rich
Yep even warrior code is cool when it's free and doesn't count against the increasing beaker counts.

	13-07-2001 00:56									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Smash I know you can get tech as non host if you hot-join but I have never seen any free tech as a non host when I was in from the start.

I know I didn't hot join. Slowwhand if you are out there - was our game king or deity - I know it was 2x1x. Oh well I'll check and let everyone know tomorrow.

Could there also be different versions of the game/patches that could cause this difference.

	13-07-2001 01:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by rah My question on this one would be "Any AIs"

I don't remember but its possible. By that question are you saying that if there is an AI in a MP game, non-hosts can get techs. And if the answer to that question is yes, are you saying only the AI and host can get techs or does the mere fact that there is an AI, allow all players to get techs. Because that may be the issue. I'm pretty sure last nights game had AI's but I don't remember. Slowwhand Help!! Maybe I should change my name ot Alzheimer Dude

	13-07-2001 01:19									#23
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Since we rarely add an AI in MP, I really don't know, I was just speculating. But that might have some impact. I've never played on the zone.

99% of our games are deity, no AIs. So that's all I can comment on with any authority.

Rich
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Everyday is a new day.

	13-07-2001 08:33									#24
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if you have some ais in a game they can get techs to start.Just not humans.I've never gotten a tech as non host at any level although not many games outside deity.I found this out when I tryed to "bank" some non-host techs savs for saving time starting but when I checked,some other civs got techs so that plan was tossed.

	13-07-2001 10:36									#25
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when you have less then 5 cities on diety you get a massive defence bonus against barbs

	13-07-2001 22:19									#26
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The game in question was 2x1x King. 2 humans and 3 ai's (I believe - i cant tell this from the save). I was American and started with pottery as non-host. I have the save if anyone is interested. I started from the beginning (i.e. no hot-join). Slowwhand was Roman host and started with no techs. In addition, I started with an extra settler also.

	13-07-2001 22:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by markusf when you have less then 5 cities on diety you get a massive defence bonus against barbs

From our experimenting, we found that to be the case up to two cities only. Hmmmmmmm.

Rich
Back to the drawing board

	13-07-2001 22:40									#28
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I thought it was 3

It doesn't always hold true on the mac version at least.Finbar can attest to that.

DD-thats new to me.Never seen it.Was it a random start or some type of pre-saved start?Strange.

	14-07-2001 07:37									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Smash I thought it was 3 It doesn't always hold true on the mac version at least.Finbar can attest to that.

Can I ever. There's no truly safe haven anywhere in the Mac version of the game. Unlike the PC version, the barbs can and will take your capital when it's your first and only city. Doesn't happen every time - which is to say, the barbs will often hurl onslaughts against a single warrior defence and lose - but it happens often enough to be just a tad irritating.

	14-07-2001 17:31									#30
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i have been attacked by barbs when only having 2 citys in MP deity level.. and the capital was hte first they attacked leaving me in a desperate and unwinnable position