10-07-2001 17:51									#1
	canals, and other new tiles/terraforming Increase the size of your Attachments

I think you should be able to build canals in civ3
theres two ways you could be able to make this happens, one way, the way I would prefure it to be would be as a terrain improvement where the tile would be change in to a river tile, the only exception to this would be that each 1 canal tile can only touch 2 other canal/river tiles max. the canal should increase shield production but decrease food, because a canal wouldnt be a source of food at all. so maybe -3, -2 food per canal tile..


the other way could be as a wonder maybe name it suez canal or eerie canal, but you should probably just name it, canal network. this would work like the great wall will, so let say i get 16 canal tiles to place where ever i want in my territorry because i built the wonder canal network, so i choose to connect a few citys to the ocean, thus allowing them to be naval centers.

i made this post because ever since ive been here, i have never seen anyone say anything about canals. firaxis hasnt mentioned anything about new terraforimng or anything and i think this would be the most logical

well if anyone else has there idea for tile post them here..

	10-07-2001 18:21									#2
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Could be nice as a tile improvement

	10-07-2001 19:49									#3
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If I knew how to, I'd link this thread to all the other canal ones

Seriously though, if you like canals, bump the thread that best expresses what you want to say....

	10-07-2001 20:07									#4
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I like the idea of this as a wonder. I am sure I remember hearing about it implemented as a game feature as a wonder, but it is probably just my mind playing tricks on me.

	10-07-2001 20:10									#5
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The Civ2 tile improvements seriously lack imagination and I dislike the way you have to plaster everything with railroads, farmland and mines (yawn).

I'm looking out of my window now, I see roads, open countryside and a 747 jetting off. Not a railroad, farm or mine in sight!

The next civ should offer at least 2x the current tile improvements, including canals. I'm also open to the idea of a wonder (say the "Industrial Revolution" for canals or the "Autobahn" for motorways) that would give a civ a head-start on construction.

	10-07-2001 22:27									#6
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Perhaps the told improvements need to be miniaturized. Remember that a civ square is many miles. So if we had a mountain tile, it could possibly look a little like this:
_____________
| /\/\/\/\/\/\/\\ |
| /\/\/\/\/\/\/\m/\ |
| /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\|
|/\/\/\/m/\/\/\/\/\\|
|\/\/\/\\/\//\/\/\/\/|
|/\/\/\/\/\/\/\\/\/\/|
----------------------

ok, it's not very good, but can you see what I'm trying to say? Maybe a few tiny mines or farms or whatever on a tile rather than a big old farm covering the whole thing

	10-07-2001 22:43									#7
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I agree with having a canal tile improvement. But a canal should be like a road, no benefit should be given beyond naval units being able to cross land tiles.

	10-07-2001 23:23									#8
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Well, a canal tile should at least have trade increase, even above the one arrow given for river. Two arrows? Think of them as pre-superhighway superhighways in trade terms. Tremendous impact.

That said, they were quickly replaced with the advent of railroads. This would represent something new for the programmers, but how about certain tile improvements boosted/ made obsolete by certain tech advances? This would be a good one to try it out on.

	11-07-2001 02:40									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison I like the idea of this as a wonder. I am sure I remember hearing about it implemented as a game feature as a wonder, but it is probably just my mind playing tricks on me.

You are right. It has been said that the Great Canal will be a wonder placed on the map.

	11-07-2001 02:54									#10
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I think the irrigation is supposed to represent canals.

	11-07-2001 03:18									#11
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ancient, do you just look at my old threads and write the same thing?

cause you've done just that twice.

oh well. great minds think alike i suppose.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...2895#post312895

	11-07-2001 06:58									#12
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Canals should definately be in civ3, but with some limitations.

	11-07-2001 07:58									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Earwicker That said, they were quickly replaced with the advent of railroads. This would represent something new for the programmers, but how about certain tile improvements boosted/ made obsolete by certain tech advances? This would be a good one to try it out on.

Perhaps canals could create 2 trade as well as let ships move through land. However, when railroads are discovered, it could go down to 1 trade, and down to no trade with automobile. However, ships could always move through, no matter what technologies you have.

By the way, what advance would allow canals? Construction? Engineering? Trade?

I always liked the idea of canals in Civ.

	11-07-2001 08:28									#14
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Actually canals should increase food production and/or city size limit. In pre-industrial Europe canals and rivers were the only practical means of moving food great distances. If wagons were used the horses could eat more than the weight of the cargo. Canals enabled inland cities to draw their food supply from more additional river networks. Paris, for instance would receive food supplies from the Loire river valley area in addition to the Seine river valley area.

	11-07-2001 08:46									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Dr Strangelove Actually canals should increase food production and/or city size limit. In pre-industrial Europe canals and rivers were the only practical means of moving food great distances. If wagons were used the horses could eat more than the weight of the cargo. Canals enabled inland cities to draw their food supply from more additional river networks. Paris, for instance would receive food supplies from the Loire river valley area in addition to the Seine river valley area.

I don't know if this is a good idea. After all, the canals themselves are not producing the food. Maybe canals could act as a water source for irrigation, and you could build irrigation in a canal square, but I don't think the canal should actually produce the food. And about shipping things long distances: maybe canals could also increase the movement rate of caravans (representing river barges, trading ships, etc.) as well as allowing ships to travel on them.

	11-07-2001 15:08									#16
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Canals, if connected to the sea directly or indirectly, should give the advantage to the city of a naval centre, eg, harbour, offshore platform, port facility, or it's civ3 equivalents...this would also allow access to overseas colonies which could prove to be useful, the manufacture of naval units and the harvesting of greater resources from ocean squares. I don't think they should pose any advantage [i]per se[i/] but all squares connected via canal (and that includes via the sea and all canals flowing into the sea by canal) should receive a trade bonus, at least for a period of time.

	11-07-2001 16:11									#17
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We seem to be oscillating between discussing massive projects like the Suez Canal (definitely a wonder-ful project) and the mediaeval / renaissance canals which were used for goods transportation but would not be able to cope with even small seagoing ships. I think the latter should be a standard terrain improvement and agree they should provide trade or production benefits which fade away after railroads and automobiles become prevalent.

	11-07-2001 17:03									#18
	Re: canals, and other new tiles/terraforming Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by ancient I think you should be able to build canals in civ3

exercise in futility

	12-07-2001 03:42									#19
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Canals make the transfer of food more efficient by reducing the time required to get the harvested food to market, therefore reducing spoilage. Additionally barges can transport larger quantities of food. This effectively translates into more food available for the cities.

	12-07-2001 04:10									#20
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Was it just me or did I read a review that said something about a wonder being able to build a canal. That was before the civ3 info flood though so it may be wrong.

	12-07-2001 06:24									#21
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Reactivating character...
Bringing apolyton topic memory up to date...
Logging in... done.

Well, I have returned to again join the unending Apolyton debates.

I'm wondering how a canal would be graphically represented. It obviously can't be a river square, as some have suggested, because with rivers between tiles you couldn't put a ship unit on one. Is a canal then an ocean tile? I don't think so, because this would mean land units could not cross it. The only alternative seems to be a special improvement that allows both ships and land units to enter the tile. Graphically, it would connect to the nearest ocean just like a Civ2 river tile.

I am fairly certain from what I have heard that the canal will be a wonder. So basically, how I envision it, building the canal wonder will allow you to place this tile improvement at any square adjacent to water and in the city radius of the city you built the wonder in.

	12-07-2001 08:08									#22
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 I'm wondering how a canal would be graphically represented.

I envision it as something thicker than a river but not an ocean square. Perhaps it could have concrete sides or something to show it's a canal. It definitely shouldn't be a tile improvement as rivers are now on tile borders (see the screenshots), therefore canals should be, too.

Canals, in my opinion, should allow naval units to pass through and allow any cities on it to produce facilities buildable only by coastal cities. I'm not sure how trade works in Civ3, so I can't really speculate much on that issue.

I would also like to point out that ancient who lives in Rochester, NY doesn't know how to spell the "Erie Canal"

	12-07-2001 21:47									#23
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.

quote: It definitely shouldn't be a tile improvement as rivers are now on tile borders (see the screenshots), therefore canals should be, too.

Perhaps canals should offer the same benefits as rivers. If you did that idea, adding a canal where a river is would not add more resources, but turn the river into a canal, so you got the ship movement capability.

Also, if rivers are on tile borders, how will units move along them and where will their extra trade be?

	13-07-2001 00:25									#24
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of course, any hills or mountains would requre the development of locks...

and they would cost a lot of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ to build...

	13-07-2001 07:52									#25
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rivers along tile edges is not in keeping with the game concepts of movement improvemnts and trade bonus..

Canals should only be allowed to built from ocean to a city providng it isnt longer than maybe two squares...

	13-07-2001 10:54									#26
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The rivers may have been moved to tile edges for the purpose of borders, i.e. your border's expansion may be hindered by rivers. Movement with rivers may work in a variety of ways. Here are some possibilities:

1) Your movement is increased on any tile that borders a river.
2) A certain technology needs to be researched in order to get movement advantage.
3) Rivers provide no movement advantage.
4) Rivers provide no movement advantage and a bridge is required to cross one (except for some special units?)

Trade bonus could also work in a variety of ways:

1) Cities with a river within their borders get trade bonus.
2) Tiles that border a river create trade bonus.
3) Trade works in such a different manner that in October we will look back on this post and laugh.

	13-07-2001 21:46									#27
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In a way you can already build canals. If you have two masses of water only separated by one square of land. Build a city there. You just made a canal that ships can cross. Even if the land bridge is a little thicker if there's some water you can create a passage (E.G.

LLLWWWWWWWWWWLLLLL
LLLWWWWWWWWWWLLLLL
LLLLLWWWWWWLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLCLLLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLWWLLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLLLCLLLLLLL
LLLLLLLLWWWWWWLLLL
LLLWWWWWWWWWLLLLLL

	14-07-2001 00:11									#28
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I agree with seer on this one. It may not be hyper-realistic, but it does add the idea of the canal as a resource. Whoever controls the city controls the canal.

	14-07-2001 11:04									#29
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Canals might be a nice addition, but I think they should be secondary to gameplay+AI, graphics, diplomacy, etc.....

	14-07-2001 11:36									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Mahdimael I agree with seer on this one. It may not be hyper-realistic, but it does add the idea of the canal as a resource. Whoever controls the city controls the canal.

The city-as-a-bridge idea has been around since Civ 1, and it was even possible to form a chain of them in Civ1 to step your navy across wider landmasses because founding cities adjacent to each other was allowed.

Some of us want big canals/waterways like the Suez, Great Lakes etc and it looks like we may get one (but only one) via a wonder. So we can have your navy using the Suez or the Great Lakes but not both.

Others want a canal tile improvement to represent the small manmade waterways that were very important means of transport and trade before the proliferation of the railroad. Nothing seems intended to cover that and it may be that Firaxis have rejected it on KISS grounds since roads already carry infinite resources infinite distances in the current model.