29-06-2000 08:51									#1
	WWII- Challange Enter the AD-FREE zone

Here is the challenge, unlimited time frame, WWII scenario on Civ II, Conquer the world with the Spanish. I tried and failed miserably but I was wondering if any of you could pull it off. If you do just post here and let me know what difficulty and by when and how you conquered the world.

	29-06-2000 18:59									#2
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I will give it a try. May take some time to finish though, as I have a lot of things to do and already have a couple of challenges to finish.

Carolus

	30-06-2000 00:11									#3
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I think it's doable. Ming and I played on deity as Spain and Neutral and we won. Playing SP is more difficult.

On first turn if you capture a French city (provided that Germany did not capture Paris)you get all its money.

Build coastal fortress in all your coastal cities!

Trade with England to get cash and science.

	30-06-2000 04:32									#4
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I've started and I'm doing OK, unless it has to be done before june 1945?!

Hence my post and question: before which year do we have to finish?

I'm keeping a log that I will post later, but here is some info on the first turn (version 2.42, deity level).

I immediatley sold all the marketplaces except for Madrid's, which yielded 640 gold for a total of 693 gold. Picked Communism as my first tech and allied with the turks.

Traded techs with the neutrals, got communism for railroad. Revolution. Then I changed production from riflemen to freights in every city except Lisbon (building a transport).

Later in the game I delivered the freights to the allies (English and American). Biggest bonus was only 546 gold (oil to NY). Tribute has been decent especially from the french, who have given me 400 to 500 gold several times. My treasury has been topping at about 3300 gold.

I've been incrementally buying armor. A minor nuisance is the lack of "less than 30 shields"-units, increasing the cost.

I decided to attack the French first, but have only taken out three of their cities thus far.

Edited part: It is now june 1945, I saved because I didn't know if that was the dead-line or not.

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited June 29, 2000).]

	30-06-2000 05:42									#5
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Well, he did say "unlimited timeframe" so I assume that you have until eternity right?

	30-06-2000 06:15									#6
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Carolus Rex- you can take as much time as you want. I doubt you could conquer the world with the spanish before 1945.

Xin Yu- I actually read the post when you and Ming played that game. I agree with you though that it will be more difficult in SP.

I am sure it can be done I have no real doubt of that I was just wondering how people went about doing it. In the game I lost the French(what was left of them) allied with the Allies and the Axis and that alliance took out most of the Russians and then turned to me. So that was that. And I did not know that about capturing the French City, however I have had yet to have a game were Paris has not fallen on the first turn.

	30-06-2000 07:16									#7
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Ming and I won by 1963. I don't think it is possible to win before 1945.

Trade bonus will be larger if you have superhighways and airport.

	30-06-2000 18:08									#8
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1963?! That has got to be impossible to beat in single player.

I have never seen Paris survive the first turn either.

I stayed out of the representative governments , went straight for communism and sticked with it. Hence no WLTPD-induced growth, which most of the cities were set up for (temples, marketplaces and cathedrals). Maybe a mistake?

After two transports filled with freights I've built nothing (almost) but armor. Only city with a factory and a power plant is Madrid, the other cities only produce "ordinary" shields. Maybe a mistake?

Carolus

	02-07-2000 04:25									#9
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I played it with the Spanish once and by 1965 I was ready to attack the Russians, I´ve never finished that game, though, the Russians had to many cities by then.

To kill the french, neutral was really easy, to kill the Allies was harder, and the axis was easier with all the production from the allies cities, but attack russia won´t be a piece of cake, by then they have too many cities.

I change to fundamentalism as soon as I stole the technology and it was not that hard any more

	02-07-2000 07:51									#10
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I don't it'd be that hard in an unlimited time frame, now in the time frame, thats hard!

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	05-07-2000 19:26									#11
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Still working at it, but losing my patience a bit has made me play less careful.

Have started to conquer Hitler's cities after stealing a lot of techs, including Robotics, from the Axis.

Very surprisingly he doesn't bribe back his lost cities?! I was afraid of that and let each howie attack only once and then withdrew them to a nearby fortress while occupying a city with only one armor.

He attacked it with conventional forces and of course took it back. Next turn my howies did the same thing (attack and withdraw) and I captured it once again. Afraid of moving in troops again, I only let one armor defend it and so on... No bribing back, yet he has over 2500 gold?!

Carolus

	05-07-2000 22:27									#12
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CR - I gave this some time over the long weekend here in the States, and made it to about 1950. Instead of attacking the French or building caravans, I just kept peace and went into commie ICS mode. I transformed all of my port cities to hills and then tried to head for China so that I could expand and attack Russia from the south and south-east. Built a string of cities along the west african coast and from Syria to India and on into China. It might be too slow to do it that way.

In hindsight I think I made a mistake by not allying with the Allies first before contacting everyone else. I kept getting attacked by Churchill's evil minions and the damn Nazis stayed at peace with everyone for the whole game. I ended up allied with Russia and France, but that did me no good. I had a dip with a pocket full of money heading toward Tehran to buy it when the Neutrals went from War with the Allies to Allied - then I couldn't bribe it with out creating a battleship raid on my ports. Anyway, I might start over and try this from a slightly different angle, but stay with a commie ICS general approach.

	06-07-2000 14:45									#13
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Building cities seemed to be a dead end to me, I didn't even consider it. I've built a couple of engineers though, to railroad to the front.

The good thing is that Hitler now is fighting a two fronts. He's at war with Russia and seems to direct more units to do battle at the eastern front than with me. Had I not been afraid of bribing I could easily (in retrospect) have held that occupied city.

After continuing this one to the end, I'll have another go with a representative government initially. Those freights I sent over should bring a lot more after WLTPD. Problem is, without selling improvements how to rush the first freights?

Carolus

	07-07-2000 09:36									#14
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I think you are quite correct on the city building front, it just takes too long. I might still try to bribe Tehran given the chance; I think I'll build artillery and try my luck that way. What do you think about trying to take out the English first?

I wonder how many units it would take to take over the British Isles and America. The good thing about that would be not needing vet artillery. Probably two artillery pieces and a tank for each American city, a dip for ZOC, one engineer to build a port city, and four more for railroading. That plus a couple of extra units would fit on two transports. A three transport invasion force could land in the Irish Sea and go after the UK port cities to wipe out the allies atlantic fleet. With all of the german subs and allied surface ships, you would definately need to be at peace before sneak attacking. 35 units would take a fair while to build, maybe it would be better to take out the french and let the germans try to slug away at your defenses.

ramble, ramble, ramble...

	07-07-2000 19:16									#15
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Going after the English hooligans ( ) first with a properly coordinated attack sounds like a good idea. Leaving Washington and NY alone (for a while! ) can't be too dangerous.

My own attempt is progressing very slowly and is also very uncertain. Without a large production base (so far) I can only take one german city at a time, hoping for the best. I've taken some risks including leaving some stacks unprotected, defending cities with only one unit and hoping that Hitler doesn't use his +3000 treasury to buy lost cities back.

A big problem is that the Allies hate me and bombard my coastal cities leaving them defenseless and then the Axis paradrops in. I don't lose units because I resupport them to Madrid before sending them to the front, but it slowly wears me down (although I immediately take the cities back).

I try to sue for peace with the Allies, but they refuse to talk to me...

Carolus

[This message has been edited by Carolus Rex (edited July 07, 2000).]

	07-07-2000 20:39									#16
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They built a special WW2 AI for this???

I restarted last evening and played a few rounds, but this time I Allied with the Allies right away, I think I had to give them 100g or something, but when the Nazi's attacked me, the Axis/Allies naval battles started in earnest. I still lost Tangiers, but at least I wasn't getting pounded by the HMS Hood. Along the Atlantic I pulled my defenders back from the coast figuring that they were out of paratroop range. If I could get a couple of engineers preworked to transform Barca and Valencia to hills - build a coastal fortress and add a vet Alpine they would be invulnerable - but I haven't done that yet.

On the bribe front, I bought one of the two Swiss guards in the Alpes, but didn't have enough movement to stack him, or the ZOC to get him out, so I waited a turn and sure enough, Nazi's buy the other Swiss alpine (with a bomber of course) and then immediately buy mine. There is a fine waste of 155g and a dip. I had thought a mountain stack of vet alpines would make a nice airbase if I could get an engineer over there and swap the fortress out.

Last game the British Navy kept patroling the Portugese coast (no doubt still smarting from their Euro2000 loss) and couldn't figure out how to get into the Med. I finally moved a couple of transports over there to act as sheep dogs - LoL.

	08-07-2000 17:43									#17
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Test.

Carolus

	13-07-2000 04:36									#18
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An update on how my game is progressing. This one is going to take weeks!

I have a somewhat incomplete log, but here it is. Bear with me if it has some flaws, I was sloppy when keeping the log and I may also have confused the Allies (i.e. Churchill) with my allies.

Some clarifications:

- A city name followed by "(C)" means that I've captured that city
- A city name followed by "(L)" means that I've lost that city to the AI
- If a city name is followed by "(CE)" or "(LE)", then the city was eliminated as a result of my or the AI's attack.

June 1940

- Alliance (Turks)
- Sold the marketplaces in all cities but Madrid, yielding 640 gold
- Picked Communism as first tech
- Changed production in all cities to freights except Lisbon (transport)
- Traded Railroad for Communism with the Neutrals
- Revolution
- Treasury is 693 gold

Dec 1940

- Comrade

Feb 1941

- Sold the cathedrals in every city but Madrid and Seville (sold banks instead)
- Treasury is 1112 gold

Feb 1942

- Oil (318) and coal (200) to Manchester
- Copper (152) and oil (378) to Southampton
- Another oil to Manchester (360)

Dec 1942

- Advanced Flight in tribute (Churchill)
- Mass Production in tribute (French)

June 1943

- Coal to Washington (246)
- Dye to NY (336)

Aug 1943

- Oil (546) and Salt (155) to NY
- Rocketry in tribute (Axis)
- 500 gold in tribute (French)
- 100 gold from my ally
- 150 gold from ???
- Stupidest move of the turn: Traded Advanced Flight with the French for Amphibiuous Warfare
- Treasury is 2893 gold

Oct 1943

- 500 gold (French)

Dec 1943

- 400 gold (French)

Feb 1944

- Attacked the French
- St Nazaire (C), Bordeaux (C)
- War with Churchill
- Treasury is 3390 gold

June 1944

- Cease fire with Churchill

Oct 1944

- Churchill breaks the cease fire
- War with the Axis

April 1945

- Germans bribe Bordeaux

June 1945

- Marseille (C), Bordeaux (C)

June 1947

- Vichy (C)
- Alliance with Hitler

Oct 1947

- Strasbourg (C)

Dec 1947

- Alliance with Hitler dissolved

I lose St Nazaire somewhere between december 1947 and december 1951!

Dec 1951

- Frankfurt has been reduced to size 6 after conquering back and forth

Feb 1952

- Frankfurt (C)
- Marseille (L)

June 1952

- Munich (C)

Dec 1952

- Prague (C)
- Axis activates alliance with the Allies!

Feb 1953

- Dresden (C)

April 1953

- Dresden (L)
- Dresden (C), Cologne (C)

June 1953

- Prague (L)
- Prague (C)

August 1953

- Berlin (C)

Oct 1953

- Marseille (LE)
- Dumbest move of the turn: Hitler kills all defenders in Prague, then he offers a cease fire. He could have walked right in...
- Vienna (C)

Dec 1953

- Kiel (C), probably a mistake

Feb 1954

- Kiel (L) (it was on purpose, I withdrew all units, impossible to hold)
- Krakow (C)
- Vigo (L) to Churchill

April 1954

- Vigo (C), Warzaw (C)

June 1954

- Venice (C), Milan (C)

August 1954

- Russians break the cease fire (I'm now at war with everybody but the Neutrals, who is my ally and the Turks)
- Paris (C), Strasbourg (L) to Churchill

October 1954

- Strasbourg (C)

Dec 1954

- Rome (C) (cost me 6 stacked howies in the counter attack)

Feb 1955

- Budapest (C), Kiel (C)
- Kiel (L) to Churchill

Apr 1955

- Kiel (C)

June 1955

- Kiel (L) to Hitler, who starts on Manhattan Project in Bergen
- Kiel (C), St Nazaire (C), Bristol (C) (located north of St Nazaire), Bucharest (C)
- Kiel (L) to Churchill

Aug 1955

- Kiel (CE)
- Dumb move of the turn: I took a newly built vet AEGIS cruiser to attack an unfortified partisan on a mountain. The AEGIS lost.

Status report as of dec 1955

- I have 27 cities
- Treasury is 5192 gold
- Germans have 8 cities left
- The Neutrals have 3 cities
- The French have 8 cities
- Haven't counted the other civs'

Losses are (only counting selected units):

- 47 howitzers (I have 42 active)
- 35 armor (7 active)
- 29 partisans (10 active)
- 27 alpine troops (26 active)

Hope I got the turns right!

Carolus

	13-07-2000 04:48									#19
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BTW, I haven't even started with the Russians yet and already I need a new right arm...

Carolus

	14-07-2000 18:30									#20
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Played a couple of more turns. No conquering, just consolidating my position and preparing for an invasion of the UK.

I'm planning for a one turn blitz, a howie sweep. Amassing howies in St Nazaire and Bristol, both cities have coastal fortresses and port facilities.

Veteran fighters continuously patrol the Channel and have thus far taken out three Allied transports (one was fully loaded). There will be no successful Operation Overlord...

I think it will take at least four fully loaded transports, including settlers and possibly a partisan guiding the troops past enemy units in the field. I'm going to take out all defenders in all cities before capturing a single city.

The Axis' remaining cities are geographically spread out (Koningsberg is the capitol), which makes them more difficult to take than those on the European mainland were.

The Manhattan Project in Bergen troubles me somewhat. My rep is atrocious so I expect nothing but a nuke fest if it's built. Problem is getting there in time, the waters are full of patroling Allied ships. Do I have time to launch the invasion of Britain first, clearing the waters?

Carolus

	14-07-2000 22:47									#21
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CR - I am in 1952 and just Howie blitzed the French. The Axis (in Republic!) and Allies have been allied for a long time and both at war with Russia. I am also allied with the Allies and at 'war' with Russia, but at peace with the Axis.

My dilema - If I attack the Axis, I will get bombered & helied by the Allies, if I attack the Allies I will need to keep big defenses at home for the Axis 2 howies at a time 'blitz.'

An option I am considering is to attack Leningrad and move west through the Russians first - leaving a few Rus cities in a buffer zone to the Axis. The major drawback to that idea is not being able to rail reinforcements from France & Spain.

My city build order is pretty much (external Eng transforming to Hills) Walls, Coastal Fortress, SAM, Barricks, Mech inf, Howies. The vet Mechs on hills with SAM should protect against bombers and with fortresses against battleships.

	14-07-2000 23:06									#22
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SS: Fortify several AEGIS cruiser in coastal cities new England (if you don't have the tech, build caravans and send them to London or New York).

Then attack Axis.

	15-07-2000 01:37									#23
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Aegis are 2x vs air, and with a SAM they get an additional 2x - is that the logic? That offsets the 1hp for getting caught in port I suppose - or won't they attack at all?

I haven't built a ship yet in this one, and I don't know if I have the tech - but I can get it from the Allies by asking.

Just for kicks, I haven't built a single caravan yet either so I could do those first.

	15-07-2000 04:21									#24
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AEGIS x3 against bomber/heli, x5 against cruise missile. Better than mobile infantry. However I'm not sure it can use the sam factor. If you have laser you can build SDI and (not verified) sam battery's factor is doubled by SDI.

	15-07-2000 04:35									#25
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Argh!This is a "hardwork" challenge.Spain is really hurtin to start.You get 1 tank and a handful of lame cities all within bomber range.First thing I did was bribe those alpines and build some engineers.As well as selling pretty much every improvement.
I gotta feeling I won't see this thru.Way Too much work.Hard challenge though.

	16-07-2000 01:48									#26
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Yes, it's a lot of work. Due to the small number of units I look after them like babies!

A typical turn when taking out the Axis' main cities went like this.

i) Sending howies to the city and letting each attack one time (veterans first) until the city is defenseless. Many times there were only one way in (without losing movement points) or enemy units in the field requiring partisans and fighters to guide the howies.

ii) Covering as many squares as possible near the emptied city, first and foremost the city radius. Fighters for the squares that ground units can't reach and alpine troops or partisans for unroaded squares. The howies with a movement point left for roaded squares.

iii) Capturing the city.

iv) Moving every possible unit back into my own cities (except some defenders of the new city). This means eliminating ZOC once again.

v) New turn, new city (cities). Repeat i)-iv).

Each turns seems to take forever.

Update: Hitler will complete MP the next turn. I renamed all cities with a SDI by adding "SDI" to their original names to keep track of the defenseless cities. Will probably have to rush some SDIs very soon.

Carolus

	16-07-2000 23:15									#27
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If I may interject a note into this discussion: I tried a few of the scenarios a year ago, and found them either too simplistic or too impossible. So I set them aside.

However, after reading this thread, I have a new appreciation of the possibilities inherent in the scenario games. I am amazed at the persistance with which you all attack the difficulties.

I will let that be a lesson for me. I had not previously considered the challenge of overcoming the odds to obtain a victory (or at least a qualified success) in such games by trying and retrying different approaches.

I suspect that me free time for a couple of weeks is going to be locked up in examining the WWII scenario!

Thank you all...

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	17-07-2000 23:58									#28
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I think my game is going along pretty well, but I am playing it in v2.42 - so you can basically attribute 99.9% of my success to the AI's complacency.

It is June of '55 and the Axis is down to 3 cities in North Africa and Oslo, they are still allied with the Allies, but so am I and the Allies didn't give me grief for attacking the Axis. Not sure why, but it really helped.

I haven't built a single caravan; I know it is heretical, but I have gotten 5 or 6 gift techs from the Allies, including Robotics, Labor Union, & Rocketry. I have been running taxes at 80% and have kept Science at 0% until a couple of turns ago (JSB & Mike) when I could bump it to 10% and back off Lux to 10%.

I didn't really attack anyone until 1950. Up until then I was mining, begging, and building some defensive units. All of my Spanish cities are size 8 or below. Once I got Robotics I went on the offensive.

1950: Marsailles, Vichy, Strasbourg and Paris
1952: Cherbourg, St Nazaire

Then I consolidated, sold off extra improvements, rush built SAMs, Barricks, Howies & Engineers, and built three new cities, and turned all city squares into hills.

In April of '54, I Howie rushed Amsterdam, Kiel, Berlin, Cologne, Frankfurt and Milan; emptying all cities before occupying any.

I didn't worry about partisans, except for on mountains. As I captured each city I took out the local partisans with Mechs on grass and plains, Tanks on rivers, and Howies on hills. When I captured the final city, I accepted a cease fire and let those partisans go.

Oct '54: Milan again, Dresden, Munich, Prague, Vienna, Venice.

Dec '54: Krakow, & Rome, (left the partisans east of Krakow for the Russians.

April '55: Warsaw, Turin, Taranto, Budapest, Belgrad.

June '55: Konisburg, & Bucharest

xxxxxxx

I think I will be able to transport Howies to the UK and America by the end of '58 while still clearing Russia back to the Urals, depending on how much rail I have to build. Then it should be a mop-up of the Med and Persia. I might be able to finish by '63.

Of course this just demonstrates how much easier it is to fool the AI into disregarding you in v2.42. Here is a case where playing a scenario in MGE is probably much better than in 2.42. Russia has been fighting the Axis and Allies since 1940 to very little effect, except for letting me develop into a contender.

	19-07-2000 13:20									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I've also had taxes/science/luxuries at 80/0/20, but I think I've kept them that way even after capturing MC and JSB. In addition I've sold off marketplaces, banks and stock exchanges and used Elvis where needed. I got into selling off improvements right from the start and just kept going...

I'm now at december 1956 and have just conquered Great Britain. My one turn blitz turned into a two turn mess after a minor mistake...

First I founded a beachhead, Granada, two squares from Southampton at the very tip of England (in Cornwall, I guess ). Then I sent in the howies.

I emptied London and Southampton, both cities were heavily defended. Then I turned to Manchester and this is where I lost the initiative. I didn't see the flag go down and threw in another howie...

Pof! A zillion partisans all the way up to Newcastle... I didn't think I could both clear them out and capture the rest of the UK, but at least I took Newcastle and then I stopped.

The Allies took Newcastle back, but during the next turn Newcastle, Edinburgh, Scapa Flow, Belfast and Portsmouth (size three city south of Belfast) fell.

I'm writing this from memory so I may have confused the city names. Posting log later.

BTW, the Soviet Union is vast... I hope they've had busy little engineers...

Carolus

	20-07-2000 10:48									#30
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Glad Midsommer! Oh wait, that was last month.

Good news on the eastern front. The white civ engineers have indeed been busy linking up their rail-lines in preparation for my arrival. The bad news though is that I am only getting 30-75 gold for each city. Damn Commies!

edit: forgot October '55... lets see, I got six cities. Minsk, then Moscow, then Leningrad, then Verona (Novograd) then Gorky, then something else, is there a Smolensk? I did leave Kiev and the south alone...

In Dec '55 I relieved the local government of their responsibilities in Dnepetrovosk, Kharkov, Kursk, and our old friend Stalingrad. I hadn't rotated my Howies quite right, so there weren't a lot of fresh ones, but they have yet to discover Labor Union or Rocketry, so it should be quick. Especially the cities that aren't built on rivers. I suffered counterattack casualties for the first time last turn.

I think I may use more weak units to defend front line positions in the future - no sense losing Mechs to Russian Howies when Rifles will do just fine. I have also adjusted my city build orders to discontinue and sell walls and SAMs except on the Atlantic & Med. For the periodic haphazard attack it just isn't worth the cost.

Thanks for the tip on the British Isles, I think I'll launch from Amsterdam and try to build a port in the middle so I can line things up easier.

Did you switch to Fundy or are you still in Commie-nism? I know the no Revolutions thing is on in this game, but when you first get a govy tech you can still revolt. Do you know if that applies to the Statue? I am wondering if I capture NYC if I can switch over to Fundy. Might be worth a floatilla - or at least six howies and an engineer.
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited July 20, 2000).]