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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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Okay, I meant to reply to this earlier, but was pretty busy yesterday...
quote:
Originally posted by Cyber
Other potential allies? Maybe the PKs will be willing to come between the two factions at some stage, but you know their bureaucratic flegmatism (joke)...
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Actually, the Peacekeepers WILL intervene, but not as anyone's allies. However, they WILL keep an eye on things and they're NOT going to just sit there and allow people to be slaughtered if there's anything at all they can do about it. Also, as you mentioned earlier, the Cult is a target of aggression in this war, and the Peacekeepers will not forget that.
Anyway, like I said, they will definitely intervene, and... well, to an extent they're already doing it! (17 years is enough time for even the U.N. to get done with A LOT of bureaucratic mumbo-jumbo... ) By 2200, there will already be some PK units in the area, but not enough to close off the whole front.
I haven't finished my history summary yet, but my ideas are something like this...
The Peacekeepers take an interest in the conflict as early as 2184, but they don't really DO much for the first year or so. -Except for the standard "diplomatic efforts" and bureaucratic bickering, that is. In 2185, the diplomatic efforts are stepped up and the Peacekeepers start making some fuzz in the Council, but nobody else seems to care much, except the Gaians, who are concerned about all this fighting going on so close to their border.
2186: The Peacekeepers send a limited number of troops to help watch the Gaian border and assist in handling refugees, etc. They are lightly armed and stay on the Gaian side of the border at all times. Miriam is annoyed with what she sees as Peacekeepers and Gaians "providing sanctuary" for her enemies. Peacekeepers dismiss all such notions as "rediculous", stating that only civilian refugees are allowed to take shelter behind their lines and that the border is closed for the armed forces of the Cult as well as the Believers.
2187 - 2191: Peacekeepers run an ever-growing humanitarian aid operation from across the Gaian border. Miriam is increasingly pissed off, to the point of threatening to ignore the border and seek out "enemies" wherever they can be found. Chiron Alliance warns Miriam that sending troops across the Gaian border for ANY reason will be considered an act of war. As an afterthought, it is hurriedly added that this also applies to the forces of the Cult.
2192 - 2194: Tensions rise along the Gaian border as Believing troops attempt to block routes used by refugees and U.N. Aid convoys. A number of minor incidents is reported on and around the border. Peacekeepers start sending armed escorts along with their convoys. Peacekeeping Forces in the region start receiving significant reinforcements. They are no longer lightly armed and do occasionally cross the border. Gaians are getting a little concerned about these new "aggressive" Peacekeepers operating out of bases in Gaian territory.
2195: Shooting incident between Believing troops and U.N. Convoy escorts. Tensions rise sharply as Miriam refuses to accept the U.N. explanation that her troops started it, breaks off all diplomatic contact with the Peacekeepers and refuses to receive a special envoy. Gaians and others are concerned that the PK force buildup in the region might only provoke Miriam further and make matters worse. Peacekeepers insist that any and all such notions are totally unreasonable because they're Peacekeepers. Also insist that they have a right to defend themselves and their operations and a duty assist people in need and enforce the U.N. Charter any time, anywhere, any way they can. In their opinion, they are not the ones who are provoking and escalating the conflict, and they are definitely NOT going to stand down and let a fanatic like Miriam have her way. There are several discussions in the Council, but no agreement is reached. Peacekeepers request permission for the U.N. Air Force to use Gaian base facilities. Gaians hesitate and seem reluctant. Two wings of interceptors are flown in anyway. Gaians let them land, but are somewhat annoyed and make it clear that no further PK planes are wanted at their bases unless the Peacekeepers soften up their current "hard line" policies.
2196: The Planetary Council meets again to discuss the war and what can be done about it. Believers condemn the Peacekeepers and then proceed to leave the Council before the PK get to speak. Peacekeepers condemn Spartans, Hive and Morgans for "fanning the flames" of the war. Yang condemns Peacekeepers for sticking their noses in other people's business and (in his opinion) not being truly neutral. In a surprise move while the Council discussions are underway, PK forces swarm across the Gaian border and proceed to take control of an area inside the war zone. Here they declare a "safe haven" for civilian refugees. They also establish a military base and a staging area for further humanitarian operations. Peacekeepers argue that this solves their little "problem" with the Gaians. However, the Gaians are somewhat shocked that such an operation was launched from their soil. Yang comdemns this "aggression" by the "self-appointed Planetary Police Force". Peacekeepers utterly reject his objections, pointing out that they have attacked no one. Yang then files a complaint about Peacekeepers violating another faction's territory, to which the Peacekeepers respond that they reserve the right to go anywhere they need to be in order to enforce their Charter, regardless of who's territory it is. Hive, Spartans, Believers and University insist that the Peacekeepers do NOT have any such right, and that any attempt to exercise such a "right" on their land will be considered an invasion of their souvereign territory. Peacekeepers insist that their souvereignity is only good as long as they do not violate the U.N. Charter. Yang furiously accuses Lal of being involved in a dirty scheme to set himself up as the only "legitimate" authority on Planet. (The same old refrain all over again... ) There is some controvery in the Council, but no resolution is passed.
2197 - 2199: Peacekeepers continue working out of their new base of operations, known as New Hope. Some additional reinforcements arrive, including ground attack jets, "just in case"...
Believers are pissed as usual. There are a few more minor and a couple of not so minor incidents, including one where a PK rover regiment calls down an air strike on an artillery battery that's giving them trouble. Towards the end of 2199, things have calmed down a little and the Peacekeepers try to re-establish diplomatic contact with the Believers and get a new round of negotiations going.
2200: Peacekeepers are trying to play neutral mediators again, but realize that they may appear to be somewhat biased against the Believers. This is mainly because the Believers are the ones who have been giving them trouble though... PK forces at New Hope remain on high alert, but no "aggressive" moves are made against either side.
Okay, that's about it for now. The exact location of New Hope is yet to be determined, but it's either on the Cult/Believer border (taking up a little piece of each one's territory) or in Cult territory near the border. (I figured the Cult wouldn't mind since the Peacekeepers were really pissing off the Believers and giving them a hard time...)
So, what do you all think? Is it too much, too hard or whatever? 
If so, all you have to do is let me know and I'll change it.
Last edited by Guardian on 04-08-2001 at 23:13
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Mr. President
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The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:14
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Thanks for the help!
DarkCloud said: "I think the Free Drones are open as a faction. There is also another faction... Morganites." I don't know much about the Drones, since I don't own Alien Crossfire, so I could play as the Morganites if no-one else is. Is there a map or any other required information, and if so, where can it be found?
As to the game, I had some ideas for other political issues that might come up. On Earth, fuel sources are a major source of friction between countries. Since the basic reactors on Alpha Centauri involve nuclear fission, there wouldn't be any issues over oil or coal, but uranium and plutonium (possibly mined off-Planet) might come up. Some factions might have great control over these resources and form a cartel (a la OPEC), and some people (probably the University) would be feverishly researching alternative reactors to break the cartel's stranglehold.
Since the Morganic faction's main concern is business, I thought it might be interesting to have some sub-divisions of Morgan Industries secretly conducting commerce with the Chiron Alliance's ostensible adversaries, such as the Spartans. Nothing too serious, mind you, perhaps light machinery, terraforming technology, and civilian vehicles. Also, I believe I read that the Chiron Alliance requires its members to democratize their political system and adopt Green economies. Firstly, how does the democratization issue tie in with having more or less permanent leaders, and has there been friction within the Alliance concerning Morgan's free market stance?
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Cyber - sorry, just saying that Blake seem to have interest of the cult making friends with the Hive. And nothing is canon until we all agree, so don't worry, geez :P whats so wrong in stating various possibilities, ideas?
And, don't say that it would ruin relations...just that the Gaians won't jump in to officially and militarally help....unless the believers broke through the main Cult lines, then which the gaian military would move into cult territory and go fight the believers, away from Gaian territory, away from their terraformed terrain, environment, etc...
President - it would be easier if you had SMAX as i don't always have the time to make gif pics of the map or recreate the whole thing for normal smac. But i did make a list of bases/etc and coordinates which i will post in the admin.
and the available factions are : Gaians, Morganites and Free Drones.
kass - will send currently updated map to everybody tonite.
sorry for not sending it sooner 
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Argonaut
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Toronto
Mar 1999
time: 05:14
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Mr. President,
I don't know if I'm just a little confused by your post, or what, but Morgan Industries is by no means a member of the Chiron Alliance. He's gone to the war with the Data Angels (an Alliance member) twice already (three times if you include the Angel's inital seperation) and Morgan has butted heads with Svensgaard over trade. So, the Alliance isn't too concerned with Morgan's Free Market stance. It's Morgan as a whole that they've had a problem with. (Especially Roze, she's holding a grudge  )
Probably the easiet way for you to get updated is to read the "Chiron Chronicles History and Summary" thread, where we've all been synopzising the events that have been taken place.
As for Morgan trading with Sparta, the Alliance wouldn't be too surprised. Morgan Industries, the UoP and Sparta were once joined in the "Apex Alliance" which sort of dissolved when Morgan backed out of the war. Whether they choose to renew that would be up to Sprayber, DarkCloud and yourself.
Re: Democracy in the Alliance
While all the leaders may still be in control, the majority of their government is elected fully by the people. As well, it's the people who made the leader's jobs permenant, not the leader's themselves.
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. President
Thanks for the help!
DarkCloud said: "I think the Free Drones are open as a faction. There is also another faction... Morganites." I don't know much about the Drones, since I don't own Alien Crossfire, so I could play as the Morganites if no-one else is. Is there a map or any other required information, and if so, where can it be found?
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since you don't have crossfire, you would pretty much have to make the map yourself base on the base coordinates i will post in the admin thread soon. coordinates are base on the large planet map.
for rest of information, would be better if you read all of the old game threads, rules, history and summaries and discussion threads....which most you'd have to go fetch.
quote:
As to the game, I had some ideas for other political issues that might come up. On Earth, fuel sources are a major source of friction between countries. Since the basic reactors on Alpha Centauri involve nuclear fission, there wouldn't be any issues over oil or coal, but uranium and plutonium (possibly mined off-Planet) might come up. Some factions might have great control over these resources and form a cartel (a la OPEC), and some people (probably the University) would be feverishly researching alternative reactors to break the cartel's stranglehold.
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Morganites control the uranium flats, but that ain't much of a big deal as Chiron itself is technicly uranium/resources abundance. So factions don't seriously have resources problems and won't seriously fight each other over it, they might of in the earlier years, but not now. the morganites already have bunch of mines. Only thing seriously important to the factions is energy,trade, technology, information, idealism, etc The morganites are already producing the most energy, have a strong economy and do well trading....and few other things like selling weaponry, supplies, etc... to the Cult, various terrorist/guerilla groups, etc.......
quote:
Since the Morganic faction's main concern is business, I thought it might be interesting to have some sub-divisions of Morgan Industries secretly conducting commerce with the Chiron Alliance's ostensible adversaries, such as the Spartans. Nothing too serious, mind you, perhaps light machinery, terraforming technology, and civilian vehicles. Also, I believe I read that the Chiron Alliance requires its members to democratize their political system and adopt Green economies. Firstly, how does the democratization issue tie in with having more or less permanent leaders, and has there been friction within the Alliance concerning Morgan's free market stance? |
rather we don't get to much into sub-faction divisions please, has it caused problems with the game before and becoming to un-smac like. But there is corperations, companies, etc... trying to dominate each other, but CEO Morgan has the biggest company and control the market, so he rules  Now Morgan is trying to take over the world in a economical victory you can say :P read the past posts in this thread and history and summaries conerning the Morganites. You could change it, but prefer the main things like being Planetary Governor, trade deal with cult, establishing the Planetary Stock Exchange, perfect society becoming dead, etc... should stay.
Morganites is not and never has been part of the Chiron Alliance. Morganites is already trading with the Spartans, Hive, etc... actually, Morganites will trade with anyone :P sometimes even with the enemy, people the don't like, but with limits.
Dark Cloud - SMAC Fanatic only controls the Cyborgs, unless he decides to give them up for the Gaians. He only controls temporally and somewhat the Gaians if no else is playing them.
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Natan, Sprayber, Guardian, kass and Mr. President, what are your emails?
i forgot and lost some of yours :/
sorry
-LordLMP
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Cyber
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Playing chess with polar bears
Sep 2000
time: 07:14
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LordLMP- Sorry if I seemed hostile, wasn´t my intention, just a little concerned.
The Cults concern is right now their two immediate neighbors, the Gaians and the Believers. The Gaians are the most potential allies for now, but don´t seem to want to get into this mess. The funny thing is that the Cult hasn´t done directly or indirectly anything bad to the Gaians and vice versa. This is probably the only case where a splinter faction and a mother faction are in complete peace, never troubling each other. But if the Believers take out the Cult it´s going to be Believer-Gaian, two very different original factions- I´d give them five years of peace, then the war hounds are off again And even if the Gaians arrive to help after the Believers break through the Cult lines, its gonna be too late as the Believers will have the advantage then.
Guardian- An excellent add-on summary about PK operations on the western continent, but with a flaw. Reading the summary, I got a picture that the Gaians are sharing directly border with the Believers, but that is not the case. The Gaians are north of the Cult, and the believers are in the south. So the CoP is between the Gaians and the Believers. They´re like a buffer zone for the Gaians against the Believers, in a way
You´re right, the Cult doesn´t mind about the PK´s establishing a base in their territory, as long as they are pissing off the Believers...
Summary: Okay, as I see this whole situation, we might again have another major inter-factional conflict coming up soon, center point being the Believer-Cult war.
Suggestion: How about if the different arguing sides really went to war against each other, but not into a full-scale war. Instead, they would bring large taskforces on the western continent, more exactly on the Cult-Believers battlefield, and settle their differences there.
BTW, why is it always either me or Darkcloud, who are starting some major conflict? The First Spartan War, University War, The Second Spartan War, The second University War, and now this Cult-Believer war...
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
If Lal is going to act like that, than Yang will back the Believers to the hilt, and mobilize Morgan and Zakharov against Lal. Yang will point out that Lal has declared himself Emperor of the Earth, and wants the other factions to kow-tow and bring tribute, to take orders from him and to fund his army which oppresses them. Yang will also declare that if the PKs do not recognize his soveriegnty, than he does not recognize their's. And so on. |
Sounds like Lal's going to get a run for his money...
By 2200 he'll be trying to calm things down a little and reduce the tensions that have been steadily growing in recent years. I'll post the rest of my history summary later today, and we'll see where that leaves us. It seems Yang and Lal had a major crisis between them in 2196, possibly followed by a few minor border-incidents in 2197 where Yang would get the impression that Braddock & Co were actually taunting him... So, Yang would be furious to the point of initiating preparations for another war, then Lal would intervene and try to ease the tensions and get back on a sound footing.
I guess Lal might live to regret ever allowing the hard-liners like Braddock to become so powerful and gain so much influence on his policies, but there really wasn't all that much he could have done about it. -Or was there...? 
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DarkCloud
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of Lists
Jul 2000
time: 05:14
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Mr. President, your plan sounds good, but the corporations should mainly concentrate on dominating markets outside of Morganite territories, they could do some stuff inside, but don't split him too much.
We have outlawed subfactions... there was a good reason- it was moving away from SMAC's focus.
Morgan is currently the leader of the Planetary Council, (different from the Chiron Alliance which is the Pirates, DAngels, Cyborgs, Peackeepers, the middle factions) and is the prime policy decider, he was a compromise candidate, University and Hive, etc. didn't want Lal again.
Guardian: good summary
Morganites- good friends with University though Zakharov is a bit sore with them for pulling out of the last two wars and in the first war attacking him.
Morgan recently had to declare one company a monopoly that was damaging the Morganites, it was bribing everyone and everything. (The Perfect Society controlled it and Morgan knew that, they were a political group opposed to him) He also revealed a scandal that they were working closely with the Data Angels, so, they were broke up.
Some people are sore about that, but most don't care.
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
If Lal is going to act like that, than Yang will back the Believers to the hilt, and mobilize Morgan and Zakharov against Lal. Yang will point out that Lal has declared himself Emperor of the Earth, and wants the other factions to kow-tow and bring tribute, to take orders from him and to fund his army which oppresses them. Yang will also declare that if the PKs do not recognize his sovereignty, than he does not recognize their's. And so on. |
Official PK responses to this criticism:
quote:
Lal has declared himself Emperor of the Earth (...) |
To the contrary, Lal is keeping people like Yang from doing this.
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(...) and wants the other factions to kow-tow and bring tribute, to take orders from him (...) |
No, you don't have to take orders from us.
Simply adhere to the principles of the U.N. Charter and refrain from committing atrocities, and we'll be off your case before you know it.
quote:
(...) and to fund his army (...) |
Not so. We fund our own operations.
-But of course, if you WANT to help...
quote:
(...) which oppresses them. |
Are we oppressing you?
Only if saying you can't commit atrocities counts as "oppression".
-In which case we reserve the right to "oppress" anyone, any time, anywhere in this particular manner.
As for sovereignty, as long as you don't use it as some kind of excuse to commit atrocities, you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Also, if there IS a problem, we will always try to TALK to you about it before we even THINK about doing anything else. So, the only way you can possibly get in trouble with us is by not being reasonable at all, in which case it is hardly our fault...
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Guardian
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Bergen, Norway
Feb 2001
time: 06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Guardian
Wrong again. The Charter itself not only authorizes but actually calls for its' enforcement by anyone who is in a position to do so.  |
Ummm, it would appear a slight clarification is in order here:
Under the U.N. Charter, although anyone who can is supposed to enforce it, a state may not legally intervene in the internal matters of another sovereign state. Only the United Nations may take such action. However, the Peacekeepers still ARE the U.N. We never abandoned our mission to go off in pursuit of any other goals, so we still are what we have been all along. Hence, we (in our own opinion anyway) still have all the legitimate authority that was given to us by the original Council back on Earth. It was never officially changed even though our mission broke up. So, here we are and it's not our fault that you people chose not to be with us anymore. Once again, if you have a problem, talk to the Council...
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Originally posted by kassiopeia
The Believing Diplomatic Corps are shocked of this disrespecting attitude of the Peacekeepers. We insist that you apologize the Hive for slandering them like that. |
No offense was intended. However, it is important that we all have a shared understanding of the topics that are being discussed in this Council so that there will be no unfortunate misunderstandings at a later stage. 
quote:
Also the BDC would wish to state that the Peacekeepers are well known of "altering" the so-called UN Charter for their own purposes. |
Really? Now these are serious accusations.
Supporting evidence please?
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Mr. President
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The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:14
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Currently, I have plans to maintain relations with Yang and Zakharov, despite the problems existing between them and the Chiron Alliance. I have reasons to be wary of the Peacekeepers due to their strategic alliance with the Data Angels, who did some damage in their breakaway, and the Gaians, whose environmental policies threaten Morgan Industries' business plans.
As Morgan currently holds the Planetary Governorship, he could attempt to use his diplomatic power to build (or coerce where necessary) favorable business, and begin to close his grip on Chiron's economy. He should, however, avoid being too heavy-handed or unilateral in his approach, particularly if he wishes to stay Governor.
I am also eager to begin the move back into space. Morgan Industries is currently devoting a considerable amount of funds towards the development of space exploration technology.
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Kassiopeia
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Jyväskylä, Finland
Jul 2001
time: 07:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Natan
So in short, Lal claims that he, and not the council, is above all factions and the rightful ruler of Chiron, because an organization from a dead planet declared him so over a century ago. |
I always considered Lal's authority over others hazy, at minimum. First of all, Captain Garland was the commanding officer and leader of the mission, but I don't have evidence of Lal being the Second Commander. I always thought Ship Surgeon's were on a different branch in command hierarchy.
Secondly, like Natan pointed out, who cares about the UN? Lal's whole power is based on it, so naturally he cares, but really... I don't disagree with the human rights sections (so far :evilgrin but does the Charter state that the "highest UN official" should take command?
And if this is so, then accepting the UN charter would basically mean accepting Lal as your leader. And I see no reason why an independent faction would agree to this.
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04-08-2001 21:40
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