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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:14
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My problem with the Great Wall being used to keep enemies out is that the actual wall was found nearly impossible to do so.
The wall was so long that it was impossible for the Chinese empires to keep a large enough force on the wall to keep invaders out. Not only that since the wall is not complete, an invading army could simply walk around it.
I have heard that the practical use for the wall was to keep invaders in China. What would happen is if an invader lost a battle or even if he won and was returning home with bounty, a Chinese army could chase him down and catch him at the wall. At this point the army would have to turn and fight. Thus the wall kept people from invading based on the idea if you lost the battle you would have to fight again at the wall. Not necessarily something you wanted to do. And as such the Wall's forced peace treaties may not be that bad of a reward.
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Dida
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quote:
Originally posted by tniem
My problem with the Great Wall being used to keep enemies out is that the actual wall was found nearly impossible to do so.
The wall was so long that it was impossible for the Chinese empires to keep a large enough force on the wall to keep invaders out. Not only that since the wall is not complete, an invading army could simply walk around it.
I have heard that the practical use for the wall was to keep invaders in China. What would happen is if an invader lost a battle or even if he won and was returning home with bounty, a Chinese army could chase him down and catch him at the wall. At this point the army would have to turn and fight. Thus the wall kept people from invading based on the idea if you lost the battle you would have to fight again at the wall. Not necessarily something you wanted to do. And as such the Wall's forced peace treaties may not be that bad of a reward. |
It's impossible for any invader to walk around Great Wall, because it stretchs from the east coast all the way to the very west end of China.
Great Wall was built to keep invaders out, not in. no doubt about that.
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dida
It's impossible for any invader to walk around Great Wall, because it stretchs from the east coast all the way to the very west end of China.
Great Wall was built to keep invaders out, not in. no doubt about that. |
The problem with this thought is that for most of the walls history it was not complete. The builders would build one large stretch and then stop. A couple hundred years later they would add another stretch. It wasn't until the 1400s that they finally completed the stupid wall and then found it was not even able to defend the nation.
From the History Channel:
quote:
Great Wall of China
Fortifications winding c.1,500 mi (2,400 km) across N China from Gansu prov. to the Yellow Sea. It is an amalgamation of many walls, first united (3d cent. B.C.) by the Ch'in dynasty. The present form dates substantially from the Ming dynasty (1368-1644) and averages 25 ft (7.6 m) in height. Successive invasions of China by northern nomads proved the wall to be of little military utility. |
As I understand, the 25 ft height was not enough to keep invaders from simply climbing the walls when no one was around or bribing guards to let them in. Now crossing the wall took time, but it was not hard. Invaders could easily enter China from the north. It was getting out that proved to be harder. If you lost a battle and were chased north, a Chinese army could follow in pursuit while another army sat in wait at the wall. You were trapped. So the wall was easy to get through, it was leaving that was the problem.
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Dida
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On that you are right, the Great Wall isn't too useful in keeping the enemy out. But it give people a sense of security, and easy deployment of troops. (sometimes, they use the great wall to quickly transport troops to the hot spots).
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death_head
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Caledonia, IL, USA
Jul 2000
time: 23:14
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In response to the Maginot line comment, I would just like to point out that the French were morons for just sitting there.
HEY! YOU! COME ATTACK THE WALL! HEY WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING! YOU CAN'T GO AROUND THAT WAY IT'S OFF LIMITS!
The great wall helps because you can sort of create a choke, which is a good thing, not a bad one.
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colossus
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Hong Kong
Nov 1999
time: 05:14
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I am always thinking that the Great Wall was intended to prevent small bands of barbarians(say, 30) from raiding North China. Without the Wall, it would be impossible to protect the agricultural lives of North China, who would be subjected to constant, small scale raidings throughout the year. Large scale invasion is another matter. I don't think there were any major invasions stopped by the Wall, not even once. Major invasions had to be averted by a combination of politics, bribery and military power.
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This is a game. Leave the Wall as is.
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TVA22
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Collossus is correct, the Great Wall was built to repell small bands of raiders, particularly ones on horseback. It was also used as a transportation system, for troop deployment yes, but even moreso to send information back and fourth across the empire swiftly. It's not like the Chinese were dumb, and actually believed the wall would keep a determined army from invading, since a single battering ram could, given the time, breach the Wall.
Also, I have actually been over to China to see the Great Wall in person, and it is an impressive sight to behold, and the disrespectful references to the Chinese people and the "stupid wall" in this thread are really quite irritating, and it would do some people a lot of good to remember once in a while, the world is a lot bigger, and a lot older than the European civilizations who have stollen the spotlight in the last few centuries.
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Dida
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ok, my question is, what does physically laying down the great wall do? does it make other Civs impossible to pass the wall? If you have long border with the other guy, can the great wall make sure it can cut off all the border? (in reality, it does). if it can do so, than it's pretty neat. if the guy is always invading you, and on your ass, you can build the wall and block him outl
Someone mention Grand Canal would work the same. so if we have a big city on top of a hill, with lots of production, we can build ship in this city, and then sail them out to sea?
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death_head
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Caledonia, IL, USA
Jul 2000
time: 23:14
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Now that would be cool...it can't be that bad to have two Wonders...
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Recurve
As map sizes will be larger and more crowded, why not provide 2 Grand Canal Wonders? |
Or since I am positive that Firaxis has confirmed minor wonders that every civ can build make em that. And have a possible one major wonder that gives some type of bonus.
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16-07-2001 12:35
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