23-07-2001 18:16									#1
	creating custom units Inflate your Upload Space

What custom units do you build and why? I'm asking because it might help me be a better player. Depending on the amount of psi-combat I build trance or empath units, and recently I've begun using sporific gas units. (do they really help?)

But I've made some other units depending on circumstances. Once when I had a lot of sea bases I made foil crawlers and it really helped mostly due to the fact that my bases were well protected. (I also made them trance capable and armored them)

What units have you made that didn't work out? I put a trnasport module on a needlejet once, during one of my first games of SMAC. I thought the troops would be able to exit the plane in flight. OOP! That was stupid.

Recently I thought of making a personnel carrier with an armored rover chassis and a transport module. The hope was/is to ferry troops around faster without using their movement points. Unfortunately I don't think such a vehicle would be useful because it would be shot to pieces in the post D:AP times and if it was heavily armored and had AAA capability it might cost more than its worth. (more than drop troops probably)

Any suggestions or ideas? I'd like to hear 'em.

D4

	23-07-2001 19:38									#2
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Here's a pretty good thread very similar to this one:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...workshop+custom

My personal favorite unit is the needlejet colonypod. A flying base maker is a pretty worthwhile investment for me

	23-07-2001 19:40									#3
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I like to use teams of units...for example, if I wanted a team that was almost invincible, I would do this:

Unit 1: (both have same chassis, just depends on the situation)
Handguns
Highest possible armor
Trance
AAA

Unit 2:
No armor
Highest possible weapon
Nerve gas (if you want)
The psi-attack enhancer (ARG I can't remember what it is called)

This way, you have a relatively cheap unit designed to defend, and a relatively cheap unit designed to attack...you can modify to fit your current tech/situation.

	24-07-2001 02:28									#4
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Good for water psi combat:

Isle Killer:
6re-1-sea (any) + trained

Isle Defencer
1-3rt-sea (any) + clean

or the best- Empath Hovertanks! They rock (the mindworms)!

	24-07-2001 02:32									#5
	Remove this text

Sometimes, in the late game, I will use psi-assault tanks with a dissociative wave and a blink displacer, thus letting me cut straight to the heart of the enemies defense, and not having to worry about trance. Pretty costly, though.

	24-07-2001 03:37									#6
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WAVE and drop pods.

WAVE is absolutely necessary to defeat AAA for your Choppers, and ECM for your tanks.

Drop pods allow infrantry to keep up.

Ned

	24-07-2001 04:17									#7
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Drop scout patrols. Very very cheap, and great for irritating an enemies zone of control.
Also, drop in, and destroy an enhancment. Roads and sensor arrays right off, but mines and boreholes are fun too.
Or drop in on an empty city and obliterate it. Great for first strikes if you don't know if you can hold territory.
And remember, they are -dirt cheap-.

Scout artilery. Just as cheap as scout patrols, but now you can shell cities and keep the troops inside from healing. Swarms of these guys can be a big pain. Combine with drop pods for nasty back-ranks action on your enemy.

Drop colony pods.

Drop probe teams. Cause nightmares.



And a few I keep secret.

Indra

	24-07-2001 04:46									#8
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It really is too bad that drop probe teams can't move on the same turn, or they'd be hands down my favorite unit. I just love the concept, and have taken to naming them variously 'Sky Shopper', 'Angel of Mercy', 'Aquisitions', and 'Drop and Shop'.

The handy Empath Chopper is great for the high ecodamage games, but I don't usually play that way.

And for IOD's, the bigger IOD. IOD's are the greatest.

Units I designed but didn't really work? Well, Trance and Empath rovers are a waste in my experience. Costly, and I'd rather have non-lethal or high morale. When the worms come calling, send out the cheap 412 rover, that is, until choppers. Oh, one unit I loved, but isn't cost effective..the superfungi hoverformer. I could go anywhere and do anything with that. Really, the major pain with formers is that you can 'only' upgrade the basic ones to 'superclean' or 'superfugus' depending on need, whereas rover-chassis formers are infinately more useful. When cost permits, I try to switch to making them exclusively for upgrade to 'superclean'. that way, you can move and terraform on the same turn in many situations.

Generally, dual-ability garrisons have failed for me, esp. once I have clean reactors. I'd rather have 3 units doing different jobs.

Nuff said.

Smack

	24-07-2001 18:53									#9
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Has anybody ever tried orbital insertion colony pods? Now that would be annoying.

	24-07-2001 18:57									#10
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Indeed, with the dropeverything strategy, the race for the space elevator becomes truely insane.
Indra

	25-07-2001 00:44									#11
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Shard Probability Behemoths (Hovertanks, that is). I took out Zak in about three turns, despite him having over twelve bases. They have reasonably cheap but good armour and good attack ability. Also, give them dissociative wave and either soporific gas pods or blink displacer - handy for getting past irritating Tachyon fields...

	26-07-2001 02:44									#12
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Garrison: Clean/AAA, Clean/ECM, Clean/Trance

Infantry chassis. The clean reactor is a MUST for garrison units. These units are going to be holding in your bases for a long time (you hope), and you don't want them tying up resources over that duration - the minerals consumed for support can be a sum of many times over the initial unit cost.
Always give them the best armor available. Upgrade continually when new armors and reactors become available. Coupling ECM with Pulse armor and Trance with Resonance armor is a fine thing to do whenever those armor types are in their primes of usefulness.
Hand weapons vs. laser? I find that the choice has no real impact on the game, so I choose hand weapons to keep the icons distinct from assualt units.
In land bases, all three garrison types are needed in the early and early-mid games. As time progresses and human technology overpowers native abilities, Trance is not essential, unless your eco-damage is engendering excessive amounts of worm activity.
In sea bases, it's a pretty safe bet to omit the ECM type. And again, as time progresses, the Trance variety won't be entirely necessary there, either.
By mid game, you should have decent energy parks of supply crawlers and foils, so cash for upgrading shouldn't be a problem. You can then build garrisons in any newly founded or newly captured bases as scout patrols, and upgrade them on a unit-by-unit basis to whatever is needed to round out the base's defenses.



Assault infantry: Blink

Best weapon and best armor. Armor cost ususally isn't an issue with infantry. Blink is certainly the ability of choice for base assualt. The second special can be left empty, but it's best to fill it with AAA, ECM, or Trance; or fill it with some mobility enhancement like amphibious pods or drop pods, as the situation warrants.
Build assault infantry as scout patrols, and upgrade them to whatever is necessary at the time. Change them again later as the situation dictates. For example, load a cruiser transport with scout patrols, and send it on its way. (Minimizes your losses if the transport gets sunk.) When you're approaching the coastal target, upgrade all the passengers to Blink/Amphib. Next turn, make the assault and take the base. Next turn, "upgrade" ("crossgrade," really) to Blink/AAA, or Blink/ECM, or what have you, and get ready to sweep further inland. Change them back to Blink/Amphib if you later want to take them off land and establish a beachead on the next continent, and so on.


Assault, rover & tank: Blink/Wave

Always use best weapon. Good game modeling here - infantry are most effective for base assault, while the more mobile units are better suited for use in the field. To use the higher mobility units units for base assault, the addition of Wave is essential. (Even with Wave, they're still not on-par with infantry when it comes to base assault. One must consider whether a mobile unit's multiple attack ability outweighs an infantry unit's inherent base assault bonus.)
Armor cost also needs to be considered. Cost vs survivability can be a tough decision. That is, until energy restrictions are lifted and your supply crawlers & foils are raking in enough to render the point moot: build rover & tank units as best weapon/no armor and upgrade each completed unit to best/best/special1/special2 or what have you accordingly. Spend some time in the workshop and see what abilities and armor can be built with the minimum time investment, and which can be had for the least expenditure during upgrade.
I've haven't yet been able to effectivly split combat roles and use hand weapon/best armor defense units in conjunction with best weapon/no armor attack units in the field. We do this in Civ, 'cuz that's the way it is, but I've not been able to do it in AC, 'cuz I don't have to. I find that early in the game, my mobile units are best weapon/no armor; in the mid-game they're best weapon/not-so-best armor; and by the late game, they're built as best/none, immediately upgraded to best/best, and sent through a PSI gate to emerge at a newly-conquered base on someone else's continent. Once there, they make an excellent field addition to the slow-moving Marine assault crew that just captured and secured the base.


Assault chopper: Blink/Wave

Best weapon/no armor. These are affordable, mobile, and potent. Use them. Use a lot of them. Empath is also a fine ability for choppers, depending upon with whom you're dealing.



Attack garrison: Clean/Wave

I don't know what else to call units for this role. These are best-weapon units built on a chopper, rover, or tank chassis that stay home to drive back any attempted intrusions. Like garrisons, they're probably going to be in service for a long time, so the clean reactor is a good choice. Including the Wave ability defeats any AAA or ECM that the invaders may possess. Clean/Empath is also a good choice, again, depending upon the nature of who winds up in the crosshairs.
The best chassis for this role is the chopper. The chopper can take out ships and native forms spotted offshore, and it doesn't have the armor cost issues associated with rovers and tanks.


Interceptor: Air Superiority

Chopper chassis, best weapon. For interceptors that stay at home like the "attack garrison," include a clean reactor as well. For interceptors on campaign, whose lifespan may be considerably shorter, the clean reactor may not be worth the extra investment. By mid-to-late game, bigger bases can probably build the clean reactor model in the same time as the model without, so go ahead and include it.


Cruiser Transport: Clean/AAA

The armoring of ships appears to bring about some debate. I'll toss this into the ring - always always always armor campaign transports to the max. Losing a fully- or half-loaded transport can be a big setback. You could go Trance/AAA, but I find that by the time I'm sending out loaded cruiser transports, native life is not a real threat, so I choose Clean/AAA instead.
Use these fast, heavy transports for initial assualt waves. Reinforcements then come through the PSI gate that you rush build as soon as you capture a base on foreign land.
I've never found the repair ability to be of much use. Once my troops disembark, they don't go back to the ship until the operation is over and they're ready to be deployed elsewhere. 'Dunno, maybe I'm missing something.
Deep radar should be included on best weapon escort ships. Armor and other special abilities for combat ships, such as escorts and battleships, is that ship debate that belongs elswhere.


Cruiser Carrier: AAA/hanger deck

Deliver your assault choppers anywhere in the world. Max armor and AAA, just like the regular cruiser transport. Should be escorted, just like the regular cruiser transport.
Good for projecting power and delivering hefty initial assault blows. However, this mobile chopper operations platform is rather vulnerable, so get your ground forces to secure a base and give the choppers somewhere else to land as soon as possible. If you know what's in the target base and are confident that you can take it in one turn, then don't send the the choppers back to the ship after their initial assaults - let them wait in the air while ground forces take the base, and then land them in the base right then and there.
A cruiser carrier can also be used for carting chopper reinforcements to places beyond the choppers' range, before the advent of PSI gates. (Alternatively, you might just want to fly reinforcement choppers by themselves over several turns and take the touch-down penalty each turn. Hopefully you'll have time to recup at the destination base once you arrive.)



Odds & Ends:



Formers: Clean/Antifungal or Clean/Super

Use the clean reactor because you expect these to be used over the long haul. Armor them to the max if you expect difficulty. In the early game, you may want to opt for Trance on foil-based formers, since the IOD's are badder than you by a good margin at this point. Once your armor is tough enough, Trance can go by the wayside and the Clean/Antifungal or Clean/Super becomes the superior model.
Bases with small mineral quantities can build a plain old fission former, and then the general coffers can pay to upgrade it to whatever is necessary. Since you're using clean reactors and support isn't an issue, multiple formers per base are the way to go.


Supply:

BIG difference when these are used effectively. Build them unarmored on an infantry or foil chassis, and then upgrade if necessary. Those closer to enemy lines should have best armor with AAA, ECM, or Trance. For the foil versions, deep radar comes at no cost. Supply units are inherently clean, so there's no benefit in adding the clean reactor.


Foil Transport: Clean

Use these for short-range light-duty work, like ferrying around formers, garrisons, colony pods, and crawlers. Armor them or not. Use the clean reactor because you expect them to be in service for a long duration. For mineral-limited bases, such as those recently founded or captured in the far-flung regions of the empire, just build the vanilla fission transport foil, and upgrade to whatever you deem neccessary.


Armored Probe Garrison:

Probes are inherently clean, so that ability comes for free. Armor them well (not necessarily best), and you've got decent defense against enemy infiltration. Upgrade the armor as events warrant and when you've got the spare change.


Drop Tank Probe:

Get yourself the necessary base facilities to make orbital insertions anywhere in the world, and have at it. No armor required. Do the job, and get sent back to a friendly base.



"Stinger":

Gravship with best weapon & air superiority. Go to the most remote & unreachable areas anywhere in the world and start tearing up enemy terraforming. Send them in groups, because you're expecting some losses. Survivors can immediately take down any enemy needlejet interceptors. Against chopper interceptors? Tough luck. You could equip some with blink/wave to attack the choppers on the ground in their bases. That might take a while, since you've got to get through all the other defenders first. The limited amount of attacks per turn (ie - one) make the gravship ill-suited for this task, so chances of success are slim. It's probably better to just forgo the blink/wave model, let the enemy choppers come after you, hope your best weapon is best enough to withstand the air-to-air, and accept the eventual losses.
Clean reactor? Many factors to consider - How long will the unit survive? How much more time does it take to build? How much more does it cost to upgrade from a basic version? Is it more cost-effective to build more units without the clean reactor than fewer units with the clean reactor? Am I so rich that I don't really care anymore?
While this stinger role can tally up some unit losses, it's definitely a worthwhile pursuit. It can completely cripple an enemy who allows it to go on for any length of time. It will certainly distract them for whatever length of time it takes to deal with the crisis. And remember that boreholes take a long time to rebuild, and an enemy who's not using clean reactors can have a very hefty support bill.

	26-07-2001 06:26									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

bob, I wonder why you have no discussion of Police. Sounds like you have an exclusive focus on FM. I tried to get the Astetic Virtues for +1, then later add a Brood Pit for +3 police. Three police garrisons pacifies 9 drones.

Also, since I have discovered the wonders of Sealurks, I never build any other offensive naval unit once they become available.

Ned

	26-07-2001 10:19									#14
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Quick question: What are the capabilities of Sea Lurks? Need to know so I don't recreate them in Aldebaran.

-Smack

	26-07-2001 11:26									#15
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Unlike Isles, they can attack units on land. They move 4. They act like subs - can't see them.

They attack sea and air units 1:1, and land units 3:2.

Thus if you have an elite Sealurk attacking a disciplined infrantry unit in a base, the odds are

3 * 1.5 (4.4) to 2 * 1.25 (2.5).

Add trance to the defense and the odds are

4.4 to 2.5 * 1.5 (3.75)

Add a sensor

4.4 to 3.75 * 1.25 (4.6875).

Fairly even.

AI boats and airpower attack the Sealurk at 1 to 1.5 (assuming the Nural Amplifier and equal morale.) The Sealurk normally wins. In most other sea combat involving ordinary boats on the defense, the attacker normally wins. This gives a significant advantage to the Sealurk as a navy unit. Plus, when they get to enemy shores, Sealurks can wipe out troops in a base or on land just like naval forces in either CIV or CIV II and unlike naval units in SMACX.

Considering all the advantages of the Sealurk, it doesn't seem necessary to build any other kind of naval unit (other than transports.)

	26-07-2001 23:27									#16
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It's true, Ned - my SE choices usually result in a police rating so poor that maintaining domestic tranquility with the non-lethal thugs just doesn't happen. I focus instead on psych-enhancing base facilities, doctors & empaths, and obtaining enough energy that I can channel some psych in on the SE scale without a drastic penalty on income & research. Though I'm usually Sven, sometimes it looks like Zak - drone riots here, drone riots there... Rapid growth can be a bad thing when operating in this fashion. Serious drawback. That's just one more of the things that makes this game good - decisions, tradeoffs; following one path and not another.

The arrival of the Telepathic Matrix makes life whole lot easier. It's a priority to build or capture it. After that, psych can get set to zero, and no new drone-control facilities are necessary (note that I'm not fool enough to scrap and recycle existing ones). A large segment of the population become drones. But, no more riots, no more problem.

I make sure that the base containing the TM is heavily garrisoned. Without it, development of fringe bases, whether new or captured, is a difficult task. I haven't been playing AC that long, so I have yet to play game where I've lost the TM after once obtaining it. How bad will things be when I've been happily ignoring drone control for a good while, and suddenly have that benefit taken away? When that inevitable day comes, maybe we'll all get to see a grown man cry...

	27-07-2001 00:16									#17
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bobyk464:
Thanks for drawing my attention to the subject of clean.
Scout patrol: 10 minerals.
Upgrade to clean scout patrol: 20 energy.
Very very cheap.
Upgrading standard formers to clean: 30 energy.
Much cheaper than I thought.
More than worth it for the mineral output. Wish I had realized that earlier in my MP games!
Indra

	27-07-2001 00:52									#18
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Bob, The TM is generally a useless SP for me b/c I run a "Green" strategy and use police and a bit of Pysch to quell drones. Typically, I keep all my bases in GA. That, combined with Wealth, gets that fearsome +2 economy.

Brood Pits, with their +2 police, really help.

I also use Locusts and Sealurks as my main weapons. You really cannot do this an use FM at the same time.

Ned

	27-07-2001 02:26									#19
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yeah, Clean reactors are a blast. You can run all sorts of negative support SE choices, but Clean reactors help it mega lot.
An if you have SP's like Ascetic V. and Self-AC, you'r police rate can rise to something like +3...

	27-07-2001 03:07									#20
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Kass, Good point on negative support. IIRC, -4 Support can make each unit cost 2 minerals to support. You get -4 Support if you try to run Demo and Thought Control at the same time w/o the Cloning Vats. Obviously, the only way to go in this environment is to make as many of your units as possible "clean."

Ned

	27-07-2001 03:46									#21
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for sea defence the only way to go is trance (+50%) res defence (+25%) combined with neural amp (+50%) (and +25% base defence). i had a fung bloom and 5 locusts and an iod couldn't kill 1 defender. of course you don't need ECM at sea, and nobody has air power yet so i don't need AAA.

of course on land i have 4 basic garrisons depending on the situation, and i thought i had a 5th but i can't remember what it was . i usually start with these at photon or probability
garrison unit #1- 1-best t-1 (AAA trance)
garrison unit #2- 1-best +-1 (AAA ECM)
garrison unit #3- 1e-best t-1 (empath trance just for worm hunting later in the game)
garrison unit #4- 1-best-1 (AAA police) for huge drone bases.

and i might just go only AAA depending on if i need a cheap garrison NOW. and with tachyons the AI doesn't even bother.

	27-07-2001 06:15									#22
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Ned - Yeah, I betchya it's probably pretty dangerous to run with any Society rating skewed horrifically negative. The game is designed well enough so that strong adherence to an extreme doctrine can be fatal, if an opponent capitalizes on your resulting weakness and cracks open that chink in the armor.

I'm running Democratic/FreeMarket/Knowledge/Cybernetic, and here's the results:

Economy +2
Efficiency +4
Support 0
Morale 0
Police -4
Growth +1
Planet -1
Probe -2
Industry 0
Research +4

Net Income 4618
Breakthroughs 1


Pirates, Thinker, BTW.

Great economy, horrible crowd control. I fooled around a bit to see what would happed if I raised my Police rating to something usable, but found that I didn't like the impacts on the other ratings. I'm using mostly Clean Reactor units, so Support doesn't matter here. The Hunter-Seeker Algorithm and armored probe garrison units at home also means I don't care much about my Probe rating, either. I've got OK Morale and Planet ratings, and I don't want to mess with those. But most importantly, I've got a powerful Econ/Efficiency/Research setup, and I'm willing to run the risky -4 Police to keep it. At least in this current game. I don't think I'm at risk of losing the Telepathic Matrix to any of these AI players - I'm on the offensive with some heavy campaign forces here and there, and I've got good defensive garrisons and "attack garrison" type units keeping watch on things at home.

If I do lose the TM, I'll have a lot of restructuring on my hands to regain a stable society. There'll be changes in SE choices, and lots of rush building. The Brood Pit / Police Garrison combo you cited looks like a fine institution to put in place. In my smaller cities, I've got some unfortunate catching up to do with Rec Commons and Paradise Gardens. I don't care for Punishment Spheres, but that could be a good temporary solution until all the other units and infrastructure are in place.

Curious thing here, if we leave the other SE choices listed here alone and change from Knowledge to Wealth, we go from Econ+2/Eff+4 to Econ+3/Eff+3, and net income actually drops a bit, to 4574. Looks like Efficiency is the driving factor in this instance.

	27-07-2001 10:10									#23
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Yeah, the real income comes at +2 econ. +3 econ does not add much, but efficiency losses can more than make up for the paltry econ boost.

As I said, the real trick is getting those bases in GA while in Wealth. This gives the all important +2 econ. One really needs a combination of police, high efficiency (to combat b-drones) and psych to do it. It also does not hurt to have the HGP, Clinical Immortatilty, or a Paradise Garden to provide that final boost. The high efficiency can come from Demo and Green. Thought Control may actually be better than Cyber for the purpose of getting the base into GA due to the high police rating it gives you. You really need to get to a +3 police rating, and have 3 police units in a base. These take care of 9 drones! In contrast, increasing efficiency by +2 can with Cyber only affect one b-drone in a base. The difference is obvious if GA is the objective.

Just some thoughts.

	27-07-2001 16:08									#24
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That sounds like an efficient strategy Ned. I'll have to try it in my next "Green" game. When I play Free Market in mid-late game I usually succeed to get few GA's here and there. But that isn't such a bonus when you already have that +2 Econ.

I think the real problem in Free Market is not the amount of control you lose. When you play FreeMarket, Democracy is a natural choice. So you won't lose a lot of control anyway. It's the pacifist effect that really makes life tough.

I have tendency to overlook SE bonuses brought by facilities. But Brood Pit for example can really enchance your perfomance in control. And if you have Police units under +3 rating, doesn't that mean that you can neutralize 12 Drones?

	27-07-2001 16:13									#25
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"When you play FreeMarket, Democracy is a natural choice. So you won't lose a lot of control anyway. It's the pacifist effect that really makes life tough. "
Clean units, made all over your nation, home in on one (small) base in your heartland, with a Punishment Sphere. And your armies march off to war.
The punishment sphere also works well with economy cities, where every population unit is a cash making specialist.
Indra

	27-07-2001 19:12									#26
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Ethemind, No, I think only 9 drones are pacified. I think it works like this:

3 units: three drones
3 police units: 3 for the units, 3 for the police effect

Now double the police effect with a +3 rating

3 police units (+3 rating): 3 for the units, 6 for the police effect = 9

Ned

	28-07-2001 01:32									#27
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quote: Clean units, made all over your nation, home in on one (small) base in your heartland, with a Punishment Sphere. And your armies march off to war.

Well, that's it.
I wage heavy wars less often when I'm playing with less militant faction. You don't need that sophisticated tactics against AI. But that's a very nice one. Though it only works very well in the late-game and depending from your strategy you may have already beaten the opponent in theory.

I've always thought it goes like 6(+3 Police)*(2xNon-Lethal Methods), having 12 pacified. But I don't remember witnessing this. So maybe someone can clear this up?

	28-07-2001 08:09									#28
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EtheMind,

The Non-Lethal Methods special ability of the garrison troops adds +1 drone control to whatever the base unit provides. So, in a normal situation, each unit will pacify 2 drones. In the Double Police rating situation, it's (2*1) +1, for a total of 3 drones controlled per unit.

So, like Ned indicated, the best you can get is 9 drones pacified from garrison troops.

	28-07-2001 11:38									#29
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Ah, the Sea Lurk. Well I did reinvent it! I'll have to go change something. The obvious missing unit to Smac was a submarine, especially a psi-sub.

-Smack

	29-07-2001 00:27									#30
	You can Air Drop from Air Transports Inflate your Upload Space

If you put troops or better yet a colony pod in your air transport you can air drop your troops and move them on the same turn. When you get the transport where you want to drop off a troop just hit the unload key and it is just like pulling into port on the ocean. Unit hops out and is ready to move. If your unit is a colony pod then just make sure that you unload before making the final movement point and build an instant base. Now you have a landing point for the following transports and voila Forward deployed troops and if you bring a second transport or a fully equiped C-5A Gallaxy (Colony Pod on a needle jet) you can establish the next base in line and fly everyone in to it. The nice thing about the C-5A is that it has a 20 square range so you can fly a couple over to that island with all the unity pods that you found or all those nice resources and beat someone else to them or just land on the coast in front of your troop ships and pull them into port on the final move and you don't lose any movement points for the units onboard.

I call this the Flexible Air Power Doctrine.

Ken