30-07-2001 19:41									#1
	Civ 3 and EU2 Increase the size of your Attachments

Most of you probably know about the game Europa Universalis released last year by Pardox. Though I haven't played it as much as I would like to IMO it's the best empire game out there. It's big feature is that the gameplay is probably the most historically accurate there is. The AI ,while it has problems , is lots better than Civ2/SMAC.

Now EU2 is due to be released late this year and I will bet that it beat the pants off Civ3. For one thing it is now a truly world game with 180 (yes you read right!!) playable countries all over the world.

The most interesting point of difference is the enthusiasm of the programming team and the corresponding enthusiasm of the fans. There have been 9 patches for EU and one more is in the making. Paradox reads the bulletin board regularly and responds very frequently to fan suggestions. I would bet that there have been more posts from Paradox in the EU2 forum in the last week than from Firaxis in the last year.

I still expect that Civ3 will be a decent game. But I can't help feeling that there isn't much enthusiasm about it at Firaxis, and that it was Dinos and now SimGolf which was the real passion especially for Sid Meier. We all remember the mass exodus a year back. That lack of enthusiasm has seeped through to the fan base. It's evident that a large fraction of the fans are becoming disillusioned.

So it appears that the young upstart with fire in its belly is besting the established franchise which is resting on its laurels.

The king is dead. Long live the king !

	30-07-2001 19:47									#2
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yes, eu team (paradox) are really wonderful. really really wonderful.
before you pronounce civ dead, bear in mind that eu is a simulation of a portion of history, covering a part where the game engine can simulate strategical issues to a great degree. same game engine would be worthless for ancient and moder eras.

about 180 nations - it is not comparable to 180 civs, since most of them are really really handicapped (city states, vassals, etc). there are around 7-8 great powers, truly playable in teh civ-sense .

all this said, i am really happy they are making a sequel....

	30-07-2001 20:00									#3
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Some people may suspect me of being a Paradox infiltrator I seem to have been extolling its praises so much over here in the last few months. EU1 certainly had only 8 countries set up as playable. The ambition in the second title is to extend the gameplay another 100 years (1419-1820), introduce more sophisticated government, economic and technological progression and make the system properly playable for every country on the map. Naturally being historically based some countries are going to have major advantages over others unless you play one of the fantasia variations.

One of the keys to their continued success has been the devotion they put in to maintaining their website and participating in the discussion forums. From a customer point of view, all game companies should work this way.

	30-07-2001 20:55									#4
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hey perhaps firaxis should do the same!

release "civ3: ancient times" in october. 7 months later(with enough time to kill more bugs and balance the extra units) the... "sequel"! "civ4: burn the witch", which extends the game to the medieval age and add religion in the model. then a year later we'll have the final part, "civ5: buy those stocks now" which brings the game the 21st century and add a real economic model


disclaimer: i havent played EU and it's probably a very good game. but balancing a game with units from a period of 6000 years is a big task, which is why very few companies have attempted to make such a game....

	30-07-2001 20:57									#5
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Although I was very interested in the game (I did some promotion for the game here way back in early 2000) I never bought EU, but I can only say that I concur with what's said about Paradox. Paradox developers interact very closely with the EU community at their site, they react on gamers' ideas, give game info, explain their intentions etc...

	30-07-2001 21:00									#6
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Markos, at least they included MP in their first version and didn't deem it necessary to release 2 expansion packs with mediocre scenarios.

	30-07-2001 21:09									#7
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MP: and how many years after civ2 was eu released?

expansion packs: sequels dont come out in one year. you can always call expansion packs as "sequels" of course

	30-07-2001 21:20									#8
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Why are you laughing ( ) Markos. You idea isn't that bad at all.

Many would like to play an ancient game only - expanded to middelage and modern age a year or two later.

If the game was nearly bugfree - nearly. And had MP and PBEM facilities that worked from the start.

Really - a good idea Markos

	30-07-2001 21:47									#9
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Markos: Bad assumption. Who says Civ 3 has to be Civ 2.5? Features for shorter game play might be interesting. I'm not saying I think this is neccesarily the best way to go, but it would be one way to have shaken up Civ3.

As for EU2... eh, I liked EU, but EU2 will have to have some significant differences for me to buy it right away. It's not like Myth and Myth II where there was a definite reason to go get Myth II- more campaign missions and new multiplayer maps and strategies.

I've got my eyes on MOO3. Just look at the "Official Comments" at their website, they reveal how the game is going to work in great detail, and it looks like it's going to be even more hackable than most Firaxis products. Plus, I somehow doubt they read my Technology thread, but they seem to have implemented a heck of a lot more of our ideas than Firaxis has.

	30-07-2001 22:18									#10
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About the EU2/Civ3 thing:

EU2 is coming out only a year after the first one. That isn't much time to work on it. There will be minor changes at best. (Although the 180 countries is appealing.)

It's been how many years since civ was released? 10? That's a long time. People have been coming up with ideas for additions and improvements to the civ series for a decade. In addition, Firaxis has spent more than 2 years working on the new game and included OUR ideas in it. Civ3 will be better because, in many ways, its our game.

I, for one, will not be buying EU2.

	30-07-2001 22:58									#11
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quote: EU2 is coming out only a year after the first one. That isn't much time to work on it. There will be minor changes at best. (Although the 180 countries is appealing.)

Not nescary, paradox is very good in game design and programming, and it is possible that the whole engine is build with the idea to be able to extends itself easily with possible sequels in mind. For example if the engine and AI part of it are well build will the engine and AI work equaly good with 1, 8 or 180 nations. Also the paradox team are freaks they won't mind working 20 hours a day all week I think

	30-07-2001 23:09									#12
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LOL Either way, I'm entitled to my opinion.

	30-07-2001 23:13									#13
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EU and Civ are obviously different kinds of games so it's a matter of taste which one you prefer. The main point I was making was the vastly different levels of attention paid to the fan-base by Paradox. We have become used to the crumbs that Firaxis throws our way so it's good to remember that there are companies out there which put more effort into interacting with the fans.

As for EU2 it is quite conservative but I think the 180 playable countries is quite awesome. It means that you can play the game from a completely different perspective like from the Asian pov.

Also there is a much richer domestic model and I find the idea of making decisions based on scripted events very intriguing. All in all I am looking forward to it.

While Civ3 has been in the makings for a while it is clear that it isn't going to be revolutionary either so that's hardly a point to its advantage. My big hope, as I have said often enough, is that by reducing gameplay changes they will have more time to nail the basics like AI and interface. I am still hoping but there is no indication so far from Firaxis of any special effort along those lines especially wrt. the AI.

Overall I am looking forward to both games but I think EU2 will be the better one.

	30-07-2001 23:15									#14
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EU2 sounds like it will be quite similar to the first. Same time period even. The economic model will be extended, and I'm sure they'll make a complex, fun game even more complex & fun.

Firaxis could take a page from Paradox's book & interact with the community, however. That's what keeps and expands a loyal fanbase.

	30-07-2001 23:29									#15
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Markos, why should I care anyway? I never bought the original, I’m not the one who will get screwed.

Nah, I think this might better have been an expansion pack or that they better had wait for a fully-fledged sequel, this is more of ToT.

Kautilya, I find the idea of an expanded domestic policy also quite interesting. In fact, I made a thread at the EU2 forum about domestic policy, but it isn’t getting many replies although someone informed me that one of the screenshots shows several sliders with the announced features. (eg: mercantilism vs free market)

	30-07-2001 23:40									#16
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quote: Originally posted by saracen31 EU2 sounds like it will be quite similar to the first. Same time period even. The economic model will be extended, and I'm sure they'll make a complex, fun game even more complex & fun.

But is it enough of a change to make spending your $50 worthwhile?

quote: Firaxis could take a page from Paradox's book & interact with the community, however. That's what keeps and expands a loyal fanbase.

I agree that Firaxis should try to interact more, but it is small company with few resources. I would rather have them surprise me with a kick-@$$ game than talk endlessly about a so-so one.

About fan base: While Firaxis may lose a couple of our pessimist friends, I would say that a majority of people will buy the game as soon as it comes out and will continue to support Firaxis, assuming the game isn't completely horrible and unsupported (ala Craptivision)

	30-07-2001 23:40									#17
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One huge distinction:

Civ3 = Fun

EU/EU2 = Not Fun

	30-07-2001 23:49									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark One huge distinction: Civ3 = Fun EU/EU2 = Not Fun

LMAO

At least, we hope civ will be fun. (Yin's influence)

	31-07-2001 00:10									#19
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"I agree that Firaxis should try to interact more, but it is small company with few resources. I would rather have them surprise me with a kick-@$$ game than talk endlessly about a so-so one."

Actually, when I heard their first announcement that they'd make a sequel, I was surprised because I didn't expect they'd had the resources for it.

If anything, Paradox is even smaller and has even less resources than Firaxis. Firaxis had a Sid Meier and their reputation to promote their games and they've had games such as SMAC that sold reasonably well.
Paradox OTOH didn't had the back-up of large publishers such as EA or Infogrames, moreover, they initially didn't even had a publisher for US after the game was finished.

	31-07-2001 01:42									#20
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One other difference I am noticing as far as the new generation of Empire Builders goes, is that there is an increased focus on domestic policy. Previously, your subjects where your subjects, they followed your commands unwaiveringly and the little civil unrest that was in games like Civ2 was easily remedied.

Now designers are looking into what made running an empire so challenging (yes, I am oversimplified history), Domestic Policy: Religion, ethnisticy, nationalism and the social consequences of your state level decisions. I welcome this new trend. After all, it is only so much fun to crank out the highest level unit and toss them at your enemy (oversimplification, again).

Don't get me wrong, I love Civ2 and I will put it on the top of every "favorite games of all time" list. but I am also ready for the changes which are happening in the genre that Civ 3 (appearently) has glossed over. I'm still buying the game, tho..

	31-07-2001 01:53									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Steve Clark One huge distinction: Civ3 = Fun EU/EU2 = Not Fun

From everything ive heard EU sounds like a lot of fun. Main problems seem to be manual and tutorial, and to a lesser extent interface. One hopes those will be solved with EU2.

It does sound like EU2 will be marginal for those who already own EU. But then again Civ: TOT would have been marginal for me if i had already had MGE

Since I dont own EU, and still have gameplay left in Civ2, I can easily see purchasing EU2 in place of Civ3. (But I am sure I will still want Civ3 eventually, after the price comes down and the patches are out

LOTM

	31-07-2001 02:05									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG hey perhaps firaxis should do the same! release "civ3: ancient times" in october. 7 months later(with enough time to kill more bugs and balance the extra units) the... "sequel"! "civ4: burn the witch", which extends the game to the medieval age and add religion in the model. then a year later we'll have the final part, "civ5: buy those stocks now" which brings the game the 21st century and add a real economic model disclaimer: i havent played EU and it's probably a very good game. but balancing a game with units from a period of 6000 years is a big task, which is why very few companies have attempted to make such a game....

and how many companies have attempted a historically accurate grand strategic 4X on an EU type time scale?

Granted Civ (and CTP) is unique with its 6000 year timetable - the question that is raised by recent discussions in this forum is whether the 6000 year 4X game is played out. Civ2 was able to evade the question of whether Civ is history replicator, an historically accurate (within limits) alternate history simulator, or a light history flavored strategy game. With advance in techonology, and the growing popularity and sophistication of games based on unique units, etc it seems necessary to choose. Clearly there is large opinion for unique units which make civ both more "historical" in the narrow sense, yet also make it profoundly less historically accurate (since they deny the philosophy of history that was Civ's main claim to historical accuracy) It remains to be seen whether Firaxis will produce a game that satisfies all camps, including the "civ-grognards" Meanwhile it is heartening to know that there will be an alternative.

LOTM

	31-07-2001 02:40									#23
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I'll probably get EU2... but I never was THAT into EU. I've actually never finished a game, I've never played that much (gotten quite bored a bunch of times).

Civ 2, on the other hand, I played for a year, almost constantly. The Civ-style gameplay is far superior and draws you in much more. Now, if EU had more tech stuff, it might be better, but still... Civ kicks its ass.

	31-07-2001 11:00									#24
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I played EU for several games with a borrowed copy but I decided not to buy it. While it has some strong points and probably very accurate in reflecting European history this accuracy falls way short when it comes to non-European countries.

The main problem was I didn't find it fun. I didn't have the urge to play one more turn. Tropico was at least fun for the first three games or five.


SnowFire,

The more they said about how great MoO 3 will be the more skeptical I become. In the least I don't have a Cray supercomputer to run the game when it comes out

	31-07-2001 11:16									#25
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UR: Who cares what "they" say? I couldn't care less about the ravings of the previews, I read the "Official Comments" section of the website and have been impressed with the changes they're making to MOO. This game could be great, because I saw, not because they said.

That phrase didn't turn out as clever as I wanted it. Oh well.

	31-07-2001 12:52									#26
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EU 2 is really just an expansion pack.
- first, possibility to play all countries was immediately made as a mod after EU was released (IGC campagn mode). They will simply polish it
- the minute the game was out, Paradox put out a poll asking what epoch they should cover with the SAME ENGINE (Note to whiners, please call EU2 EU 1.1 instead...for the sake of accuracy )
EU is really not as fun as Civ, it's abit more hard core but I will buy 'sequel' nevertheless....less fun than Civ still means LOT of fun

	31-07-2001 13:14									#27
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I'll buy the sequel too....but Civ has always been a lot more fun than EU. No comparison in my mind.

I think Paradox is a much smaller company than Firaxis. Strong support & consumer interaction make me very willing to support the company.

	31-07-2001 14:21									#28
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SnowFire,

They as in QuickSilver

The design looks great on paper, but I doubt they have the programming prowess to pull it off. For sure I'm got going to buy a new box just to play the game.

	31-07-2001 15:13									#29
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG hey perhaps firaxis should do the same! release "civ3: ancient times" in october. 7 months later(with enough time to kill more bugs and balance the extra units) the... "sequel"! "civ4: burn the witch", which extends the game to the medieval age and add religion in the model. then a year later we'll have the final part, "civ5: buy those stocks now" which brings the game the 21st century and add a real economic model disclaimer: i havent played EU and it's probably a very good game. but balancing a game with units from a period of 6000 years is a big task, which is why very few companies have attempted to make such a game....

I'd be delighted if they brought out a new Civ game each year that was worth playing for long enough to justify buying. Personally I'm quite happy to pay £1 per hour to be entertained so any game that keeps me amused for 30-40 hours is fine by me. Both Civ and EU have achieved that and more.

Incidentally, EU does have over 120 tech levels (more than Civ3!) but they are much finer grained than the Civ ones. Your armies are vastly more powerful and your country much wealthier and more productive at the end of the game, but so is everyone else, and large countries cannot dominate smaller ones through technological progress. If it was to try and encompass the same timespan as Civ naturally it would have to radically change which advances it considered noteworthy and which historical events were influential enough to have a chance of occurring in-game.

	31-07-2001 18:41									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold Incidentally, EU does have over 120 tech levels (more than Civ3!) but they are much finer grained than the Civ ones.

That may be true, but for many of them, you have no clue as to their effect. Some may like that nebulous-ness, but that's too obtuse for me.