03-08-2001 08:09									#1
	Lets end this once and for all Get a bigger avatar today!

Did he cheat? Yes or no? Simple as that.

Attachment: shadowdalehof.zip
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	03-08-2001 08:15									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

This message has been edited. The original message was the typical Ming warning to stop the crap going on between CivFanatics and Eyes. I have deleted some nasty threads from BOTH sides. To quote MarkG, take it somewhere else.

However... Eyes has been talking to me on ICQ. He raises a valid point. It is the tradition and MY RULE of the MP forums that you don't accuse people of cheating without proof. If you don't have proof, you just shut your mouth. These forums are not meant to provide a vehicle for libel and slander. Eye's point to me was simple. I have provided the proof, and I have done it in a non insulting or flaming manner. Why won't you let this stay up when you let people post proof on other people that cheated

All I could say was.... good point.

So... This thread will stay open. If somebody uses it to flame, they are toast. If it is used to attack another forum... they are toast. This is meant as a discussion. Does the proof Eyes provide prove that his opponent cheated.

As always, it is in everybodies best interest to know who the known cheaters are.

So, I can't deny Eyes the exact venue that was used against him.

But remember... this is a discussion, and NOT A FLAME FEST.
It will be monitored VERY CLOSELY...

So vote and discuss!

Last edited by Ming on 03-08-2001 at 08:55

	03-08-2001 09:57									#3
	Tired of ads?

I'm going to wait until morning to look , but good form.
Having been informed of the situation in question, I was hoping for the chance to exam in public forum.

All deserve to have their case examined, and that includes Eyes.

Quite frankly, before I even look, I suspect Eyes to be correct.
For all our mouthing at one another, I've known him to make this type accusation on rare occassion; and it was always warranted.

That's not to say that Eyes is incapable of the same , it means he has the ability to spot such a situation.

	03-08-2001 10:28									#4
	Full PM-box? Change here!

There is nothing unusual with the food situation.Normal for this type game.Represents alot of painstaking work with food freights.

The units are somewhat unusual.I can think of reasons why they are not updated.1 would be Leo's wasn't built until it was obsolete.That does seem strange.But not enough to condemn this game.

I can say from succession games that shadowdale is a briber.Big time.Early Republic,juice taxes,buy the world before they can go Demo.Leo's would not be needed for him to pound each ai to 1 city in the "traditional" manner.

Last edited by Smash on 03-08-2001 at 10:34

	03-08-2001 10:43									#5
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Ah but smash look at the AI graphs. Notice anything strange? Look at the viking graph. Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't know the AI graph did the same thing as the human graph when it gets reset. Also, just to do that amount of cities is pretty tough. And he does all that by 1800AD.

	03-08-2001 13:06									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

ok...
Once the game is "tilted' like this the pg goes wonky.Andu's study shows why it happens to the player..but why it happens to the ai is unknown.You tell me.If I saw this flucuation at 1000bc I would wonder but not after the maximums have been exceeded.I can't remember the #s right now.

The only "odd" thing is some old units but I think I know why they are there.

1st there are some muskets in what was once Russia by the looks of things.I believe these cities were bribed after or near the expiration of Leo's.They were either muskets or got only 1 upgrade before expiration.I think it was the first as there is a legion in Grozny.That legion could also have come from a barb bribe,,but I doubt it.

Next we have some ancient units in what was America.These cities were bribed after Automobile.Its fairly obvious when you see that a nation(America) was bribed.I'm not at all surprised the ai only had pikes,archers and catapult at the time of bribing.

There is a musket in Lahore that could have come from anywhere.Barb bribe.Ai bribe.1 Leo's update.

As far reaching 255 by 1750...well thats not super duper hard.His cities are spaced because he plays that way.Thats not unusual.

	03-08-2001 15:26									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Smash There is nothing unusual with the food situation.Normal for this type game.Represents alot of painstaking work with food freights. .

Umm if he using Food caravans doesnt this prevent the strarving, why is their so muc hstravation if he using food caravans !!

	03-08-2001 19:23									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Deity.
The power graph looks whack, and what's with the family size?
Is that a negative number?

Last edited by SlowwHand on 03-08-2001 at 21:43

	03-08-2001 21:36									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Proof..smoof... in this game it is so easy to construct proof that nothing can be proven. One reason I , for 1, will wait for something better.........

Still waiting for Civ III..................

	03-08-2001 21:44									#10
	Tired of ads?

First of all, the graph doesn't dip that many times. The most I've ever seen it dip is twice. This one dips and goes up like 5 times. Also, he would have to have had automobile by 1400AD or sooner because that's when the powergraph plummets for Russia. Also I've seen this guy play before, he plays like a beginner. I beat him with 1 city against his 4 the last time we played. Maybe if we had some earlier saves....I'd be very surprised if he had no earlier saves of this game.

	03-08-2001 21:46									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, wait over there will you?
The stench is atrocious.

Glad to see you got away from that dog.

	03-08-2001 23:17									#12
	Full PM-box? Change here!

look at the defense minister, look at the casualties, and the time line. look at the other civs casualities.

also, the vikings were "an agressive expansionist", and yet the capital is on an island, with no expansion happening. look at the "AI" civ cities, they are all in perfect locations, the AI doesn't do that.

most cities do not even have units in them, and it took 5 minutes of hitting enter to get to the next turn.

this is a joke

	03-08-2001 23:26									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Maximus makes good points.

AI cities, even advanced tribes in huts, seem to always be off a square from where they should be.
That's been discussed, the advantage of a nomad over an advanced tribe.

I think there's something rotten going on.

	03-08-2001 23:32									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

you could always tell when the AI had taken over a civ for a period becasue of wher eit built its citys. A number of games i palyed in the AI built citys that totally surrouned special resouces but didnt actually get any city sqaure to fall on it.. This is espceaiily tue of whales, i began to think the AI didnt like whales !!!

	04-08-2001 03:54									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Once again,there is nothing odd about the food situation.Nothing.

Max's points do not stand up to close scrutiny.

The casualty thing doesn't show anything.Once a civ is destroyed it no longer appears there.

Looks to me like restarting civs was on.Trondheim is not the 1st blue civ.There is Berlin and Paris.Paris is of particular interest as Lyons,Tours and Orleans has also been built.That was once a French AI.Lyons and Paris overlap and there was another city to the left of Paris that was destroyed.

There no way to call this cheating beyond doubt.I looked at many a game and this one is not impossible or even improbable.

Auto by 1400?..so?..no big deal here.He probably had it much earlier than that.I would say between 500 and 1000ad.

This is highscore game against the ai.You don't have to be great MPer to do this.Not at all..I don't see how losing a MP game has anything to do with this.

bottom line:
Anything in this game could be cheated.It also could be done by legitimate means.I am not amazed or blown away at all by this game.

	04-08-2001 05:18									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

if the civ restart thing was on....civs still don't restart after 1500ad iIIRC..... this game looks suspicious to me as well...

the only thing i agree with about your observations Smash....is that being good at MP doens't mean your great agaisnt the ai...

although i think that is biased as well...most great players cut their teeth against the ai....

the food shortages are somewhat suspect... yes it could be done but this game would take along time to play....

seems bunk to me

	04-08-2001 05:38									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

The location of "advanced tribes" would concern me. They almost never have a resource in the city radius, and most usually are set to avoid them. A game with advanced tribes showing decent resources would concern me...

	04-08-2001 06:08									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

If someone wants to cheat against the ai, who cares. Now if he cheats in an MP game let us all know.

	04-08-2001 07:20									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I voted yes, but then I read the rest of the topic and realized Eyes wasn't talking about himself. So please cancel my vote. I have no opinion.

	04-08-2001 08:24									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

its 1750 for no more restarts.

Advanced tribes often contain 2 resources.They just miss the middle of 4.

I can't open the map with my editor.It must be oversized.

This game tooks months.

I play chess against the guy and I sure hope he isn't as stubborn in that.

	04-08-2001 08:56									#21
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Well first of all, it was a hand created map. The hut pattern is only broken by places where there is water. Also, look at the way the plains were put down on top of the grassland. That's not how the AI creates a map. At the very very least he used a premade map which is forbidden.

	04-08-2001 14:46									#22
	Not MP please move Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ming please move this to Civ 2 General this is obviously not MP related game ...

	04-08-2001 18:06									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I probably should know this but why is all his military approaching Trondheim from NONE cities?
Is this a sign of scenario building?

I get the food caravan thing to cover the deficits in each city. He's pumping out heaps of them.

	04-08-2001 18:35									#24
	Goto a real thread Put an end to popups!

no wonder you never post at HOTW, you too busy at other threads !!!

	04-08-2001 22:48									#25
	Tired of ads?

Food deficites don't really matter. When I cranked it over 20,000 I just lauched the ship because I was bored and had already beaten rah. You can run an amazing defict with food if you are delivering a food caravan EVERY turn to refill the box.

	05-08-2001 09:45									#26
	Got spare money?

quote: why is all his military approaching Trondheim from NONE cities?

bribed.

	05-08-2001 11:00									#27
	Put an end to popups!

Eyes-you wanted the opinion of the readers of the multiplayer forums? you wanted the opinions of your "peers". then this topic belongs here.

Rasputin- in all the threads i've read, and all the posts you've made, you haven't really said anything. you are the little 12 year old kid at the party chiming in when you want to hear your own voice. if seeing your name amuses you, build a web page. Ming does not need your opinion on what belongs where, so comment on this topic or do not reply. it is that simple. you are off-topic, you need to make sence, and comment on the topic. YOU make posts, to make posts. i make posts when i have something to say.

now back to the point, did he cheat?

i say yes.

will i ever play him MP?

i say no.

	05-08-2001 19:42									#28
	Some rebuttal from the accused. Inflate your Upload Space

Since Shadowdale doesn't post here, he has asked me to provide the following link, where he addresses Eyes accusations:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/Forum1/HTML/000475.html

Also, he just told me that he NEVER has played Eyesofnight in MP.

In addition, this is an excerpt from our conversation:

Shadowdale Speaking in italics:

and about the cities that General Maximus says - well the vikings didn't come until after the Germans and French had been destroyed and I have moved a lot of cities around to get more space for them

Chris:You rebuilt them with the same name?

Nope - they are just in the same area - They most likely have the names of the cities that are common for all civs
You know - when you build a certain number of cities the names start comming from a common list

And about the game itself:

I did the game because I wanted to use all that I had learned at CFC and I'm sure that a lot of people could do the same if they took the time - the game is only special because I'm the only one stupid enough to do it

About Eyes' claim to have played him:

The only think that I find strange about the discussion is that Eyes claims to have played me???????
Why would he make people question him and his observations by lying about that?
I suck at MP - I have almost no experience in MP games
And Eyes always says that he'll only play against people that have proven themselves at MP games against others!!!!!!!!

And lastly, abiout Eyes himself:

Maybe he's so tired that people always call him a cheater that he want's somebody els to be the #1 cheater!

Thanks for your time.

Just thought you people should hear from the man accused of cheating, whom I happen to know is a good man, and an honest person.

Thanks for your time.

	06-08-2001 01:09									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

probably 9 of 10 players cheat in their single games by reloading huts or revealing the map in the beginning. so statistically he cheated.
the savefile, however, prooves nothing of this. that´s why I voted for no

	06-08-2001 01:18									#30
	Hmmmm... Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, *this* is an interesting twist. Shadowdale says he did not play Eyes, yet Eyes has a game file. I don't know what to make of that. Perhaps someone else does?