06-08-2001 01:40									#1
	which Secret Project is really useless? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm sure this has come up before but what Secret Projects do you find useless? I mean which ones do you never build or only build just "'cuz"?

I like to play the UoP or sometimes the borgs or the PK's. But mostly the UoP. So the Virtual World is a must have for me most of time. I usually skip over the Merchant Exchange.

I'm also not to crazy about the Cloning Vats. Its only good if you have the Telepathic Matrix and that comes to late in the game. If you can build both of those you're going to win anyway in most cases. I like the Space Elevator because I can then get my troops all over planet and plus its a denial strategy. If the AI gets its I know they'd be a real pain to hold off. But I'd like to hear opinions. Which SP is of least value to you and why?

	06-08-2001 01:57									#2
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Clinical Immortality.
In endgame where you get it +1 talents per base is almost nonexistant, and usually you really have no need for those extra votes.
And Planetary Datalinks of course! If you really benefit from this, TECHSHARE 3, you are so behind in tech that you really can't win.

	06-08-2001 03:37									#3
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Yeah, the Datalinks are bad news. Immortality can be worthwhile for grabbing the diplomatic victory though.

D4, the cloning vats is perhaps one of the more overpowered SP's. Check out the thread somewhere on page 2 (?), it should talk a bit about that.

	06-08-2001 04:18									#4
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If you play UoP and skip the Merchant, then you are not using supply crawlers for energy. If you are crawlering energy, the Merchant is possibly the best project out there.

The Vats is good, but not necessary. It permits you to boom continuously in FM - but any booming faction can use the golden age instead. Or Eudaimonia late-game I suppose, although by then it won't make much difference in terms of outcome. I used to think the Vats were overpowered, but nowadays, in SMAX, I think it's powerful but reasonable. I've won in multi-player games playing against factions with the Vats, so that has altered my view quite a lot.

In single-player games, the Datalinks is probably the most useless, but it can be quite a headache for the opposition in MP. The Bulk Matter thingy is pretty useless - very late, and watch the ecodamage. I only ever build it if I need extra AC score. The Manifold Harmonics are only really useful very late game if a Transcend victory is not permitted.

I agree that Clinical Immortality comes too late to be of much use. But there's one thing about this game - I've revised my opinion of most of the SPs over time. Just when you think they're useless, you get waxed by someone else who knows how to use it

	06-08-2001 05:52									#5
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It's probably the way I play, but I find the Datalinks invaluable just to keep it out of the hands of the AI.

Among the early techs, the Command Nexus is not very important.

Among the late SP's the Bulk Matter Transfer SP typically causes more problems than it solves - ED. Ditto, the Singularity Inductor.

Ned

	06-08-2001 08:11									#6
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Personally, I think the Merchant Exchange and/or Weather Paradaigm is the most useless. If you don''t build them, it's not the end of the world.

I don't bother to get the Datalinks, unless I am far behind in the tech race. And that doesn't usually happen.

My favorite secret projects are the ones that give you free facilities in all of your bases. Like the Cloudbase Academy or Planetary Energy Grid. You get the most mileage of these IMHO.

	06-08-2001 09:53									#7
	Vats Got spare money?

I've found the cloning vats to be a drone nightmare with devloping or captured CPU bases (which are always terribly run, no matter how late in the game).

In the early game, I find the Empath Guild a must have, followed by being elected planetary governor. Being able to see everyone comes especially in handy for gauging secret project progress as well as defense.

	06-08-2001 10:41									#8
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I've never been much a fan of the Xenoempathy Dome, though I won't deny it does have its applications. For instance, if you're running a mindworm strategy, and moving through the fungus, but by mid-game doesn't most of the warfare take place in the air anyway? What's plodding along the ground at that point besides your formers and crawlers?

	06-08-2001 11:19									#9
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The early SP's are really very, very usefull and cheap. I can't see anyone, that is useless. The Merchant Exchange is always underestimated. But if your HQ have build it you can get for every crawlers you use for it an extra energy. And with FM 2. With treefarm you get 4 energy from forest. From forest! Forest with its very low terraforming cost. The profit comes with the time.

	06-08-2001 11:24									#10
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quote: And Planetary Datalinks of course! If you really benefit from this, TECHSHARE 3, you are so behind in tech that you really can't win.

I've beaten factions who are more than 5 phases ahead of me in technological development. What you need against Neutronium armor is Missile or Chaos with Nerve Gas Pods when playing as Miriam.
It's not the techonoly, but the brains

The Planeraty Datalinks often are among the useless. Not always though. But it's so hard to get them without good tech that if you do get them...you usually don't need them.

Ecological projects are among the most useful or useless. It depends whether you want to go all Green, even in war. But you really need them if you want to conquer the Chiron with its own secret weapons.

The Bulk Matter Transmitter is not a project but a bad joke!

	06-08-2001 21:19									#11
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quote: Originally posted by heretk Personally, I think the Merchant Exchange and/or Weather Paradaigm is the most useless. If you don''t build them, it's not the end of the world.

While neither is the "end of the world", I can't agree that these are the most useless. The Weather Paradigm can be a key part of any builder strategy. I like terraforming faster but the clincher is the ability to perform advanced terraforming functions. Once a few forests are done I will usually get a borehole or two underway so that when restrictions are lifted , WOW.

As for Merchant exchange, I wasn't a big fan for a long while but now I love to stick it in a seaport and just trawl in the energy to a base with all the facilities. Since the effects extend to crawled energy you just rehome a bunch or crawlers/trawlers and watch the energy come pouring in.

As for which are most useless, well it depends on what you are doing. Most of the later ones come too late to make a difference or have no real effect. By the time Clinical Immortality comes around the Drone problems should be a distant memory.

	06-08-2001 21:34									#12
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Although the Talent effect of Clinical Immortality is not as useful in the end. The 2x vote multiplyer is. If you are aiming for diplomatic victory it's an essential project.
I think in most cases, when playing against AI, that is. The end game projects are most useless. Since you've already won the game in theory. It's the very few first projects that make most difference. Simply because they have time to "affect" for centuries.

	07-08-2001 01:45									#13
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Merchant Exchange is far from useless, and provides its great benefit for a long, long time. Still, it is frequent that I pass it up in favor of the HGP. It is one of the worst to capture late in the game, because invariably you will lose half its energy to inefficiency.

I don't even build the Datalinks to keep it out of enemy hands (they gang up and trade for techs anyway). Useless to me.

The BMT and Singularity Inductor ought to be cool projects but are huge pains for their ecodamage. So is the Manifold Harmonics (the higher your planet rating, the more it messes you up in ED!?)

Nethack comes too late to be of much use -- if you've been trailing because you can't get through the HSA, this will be too late to save you.

I think the Xeno Dome is quite useful for movement at sea (and pod-popping!) more than anything else. The Pholus Mutagen, however, is generally of questionable worth.

And I'll cast my lot with the fans of the Vats. It can create a mess for Drone control but nothing a few specialists won't solve. As a greenie, it's nice to have the negative effects of Green SE eliminated. Its benefits far outweigh its downsides.

	07-08-2001 05:51									#14
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Ouch! So no one really appreciates the Datalinks. Now here is the problem: You conquer one, perhaps two, submissives. You can put them to work for you researching technology if you make sure that they have all your technology just one move prior to their researching their next technology. The next time you call up, they will have the honor of presenting so and so tech to you.

As well, they will have first rate technology to produce the best troops for the fight with the forces of the evil empire, your opponents.

However this strategy is frustrated in part, assuming one submissive, and totally frustrated in the case of two submissives, if, by giving them your tech, you also hand it to the enemy that has the Datalinks. So, you cannot do it. In effect, you have been stripped of one of the major advantages to having submissives in the first place.

The Datalinks is an SP to die for.

Ned

	07-08-2001 06:58									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The bulk matter transmitter is just ass. It comes late, and if you finish it it bows you eco damage through the roof. I usualy finish it on the same turn with the ascent to transcendence, building it a a base junior to the AtT so I do not have to listen to any eco pops.

	07-08-2001 07:08									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ned However this strategy is frustrated in part, assuming one submissive, and totally frustrated in the case of two submissives, if, by giving them your tech, you also hand it to the enemy that has the Datalinks. So, you cannot do it. In effect, you have been stripped of one of the major advantages to having submissives in the first place.

Not if you've made the possessor of the Datalinks one of your submmissives

But seriously, good point! I'm waiting to try the Generous Earwicker style of treating submissives and will have to remember this when I do.

	07-08-2001 19:10									#17
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Funny, I always thought that Special Project, 'The Scent to Transmit' was kinda useless. I mean come on, Miriam with a chocolate factory? What's that about?

	07-08-2001 19:18									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Smack Funny, I always thought that Special Project, 'The Scent to Transmit' was kinda useless. I mean come on, Miriam with a chocolate factory? What's that about?

Ooooookayyy....

But the Bulk Matter Transmitter I pass always. It is the first stepping stone to being totally worm raped.

	07-08-2001 20:28									#19
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I find that I almost never use the Universal Translator. The techs I can always steal, and the artifact ability comes at a point when there are almost no unlinked artifacts left. (Of course, you can always time its construction for the Secrets of Creation and/or AC advances... that way, you get four advances instead of two. If it came earlier, as it was in SNAC, it would be more useful.)

	07-08-2001 23:20									#20
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If you play your cards right, and have AX, you can get four or even five technologies w/ the Univ. Translator. And it would be best to time it so that when you get it, you have just started researching a tech so that the benefit is maximal.

	07-08-2001 23:35									#21
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I know of a multiplayer game where one faction is way ahead and the three leftover human players (who are way behind then, as follows) have pacted up against the leader. Now by owning the Planetary Datalinks he can easily prevent them from coordinating their research and exchanging their techs.
I admit it is a very special case, but i believe there is probably an application for each and every SP.

	07-08-2001 23:57									#22
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I usually always build the datalinks, and I usually get a few techs from it. While I usually have a pretty good lead in tech, the AI tends to follow different bylines, and thereby get some lower level techs before me.

Oh, and I played a occ game a few days ago, and when I finally got the Universal Translator I had elleven artifacts waiting.

	08-08-2001 02:02									#23
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I must be missing something. In Smac (don't know about Smax), when you gain one of the 'Secrets' techs by any other means than actually researching it, you get the message, but not the actual free tech that would have come with it. Therefore, getting the Uniball Trudgelater set up while researching one of these is a very BAD idea. You loose the free tech from the Secrets. Now, if this is different in Smax, I apologize.

I forgot to mention that I also consider the 'Elven Artifact' not too useful an SP either. While being able to read Tolkein's books on history in the original is nice, and the Artifact DOES make a nice Salad spoon, its just a little outdated for space exploration.

-Smack, who really will stop abusing this thread now.

	08-08-2001 04:16									#24
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I'm surprised no-one has put a word in against the PTS.

I avoid the thing, for a number of reasons:
I'm not an ICS'er
I expand to about 10-20 bases then stop, often by the time I've got IndAuto my bases are size 2 or 3 already, and I put a high emphasis on crawling nuts, so one of the first thing every base gets is a nut crawler. If I built the PTS I would maybe gain 5 pop-points (and lose a few of those to starvation).
I do minimal pre-terraforming, other than a blanket of forest. This means if I expand the 3rd pop point will die anyway. I don't like to starve my people even if:
The people came from nowhere , the PTS gets the "Most irrational SP" award IMO, this "people from thin air" is reason enough for me to avoid the thing, it just doesn't work/fit... however you arrange your people, you aren't going to get more of them.

That said, I can see it's immense value for ICS'ers , and anyone which likes to continue expanding, and can be bothered with a little pre-terraforming (and aren't bothered by the people from thin air paradox...). I will build it for the -1 drone, sometimes, but my target city size is 5, and I'm pretty prompt about building rec commons.

So, while the PTS may not be a universally useless SP, it is my personal most useless (though ME comes a close 2nd, seeing I avoid energy crawlers too).

Last edited by Blake on 09-08-2001 at 01:22

	08-08-2001 21:13									#25
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I agree with the PTS. Although I've only SMAC for any length of time, I just got SMAX. Playing a builder style, all my bases are already size 3 by the time I get the SP, by which time I've also stopped expanding.

	09-08-2001 06:51									#26
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I also agree with that the Planetary Transit System is largely a waste. It comes too late to be of any use. Most of my bases are at least size three by the time I get it. Drone control is not an issue since I do not ICS.

Another SP that is literally useless is the Space Elevator. It comes just about the same time as one gets Graviton Theory. Both give Orbital Insertion capability. If the latter did not exist, the former would indeed be important.

Ned

	09-08-2001 07:10									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Smack I forgot to mention that I also consider the 'Elven Artifact' not too useful an SP either. While being able to read Tolkein's books on history in the original is nice, and the Artifact DOES make a nice Salad spoon, its just a little outdated for space exploration.

what a strange thing to say. must be the lingering effects of the dream twister . besides, everyone knows you eat salad with a fork . maybe the damage of psi gates is so great as they say.

oh what? the topic? oh yeah!

the manifold harmonics is actually usefull late in the game. all you have to do is fungal missle your own sea bases, and since late game fungus will give you 3-4-3 or something, thats better than HF forest! it's not as if those mindworms are going to swim to your base and attack you .

useless SP is the ME, i've only built it like twice, and the self aware colony comes in too late to do any good. it's the equivalent of adam smith's trading company in CIV II (except for the police thing) which you get from the economics tech which comes in at about mid game (i have the tech tree on the wall behind me) whereas self aware is in late game.

	09-08-2001 09:22									#28
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I disagree on the Space Elevator, it has 3 effects:
1)Orbital Insertions
2)Double minerals when producing sats
3)+100% economy in base.
It also comes at the same time as Hab Domes, making it a diserable tech.

effect 1) could be usfull if you have bee-lined to hab domes, you could be still quite a distance from Graviton Theory.
effect 2) could be what turns an orbital-war to your favour (getting ODP's up quicker), this is pretty much a non-issue in SP games, because the AI wont shoot down the Orbitals, but seeing as it comes at the same time as Hab domes you will be wanting to launch a load more orbitals anyway... Orbitals are cheap enough to buy though.
3) Could be usfull in a SSC to get a little extra cash, which is always a good thing after all.

The self aware colony could also have merits enough to be built, (even with a smallish empire would probably save you 200 or so upkeep per turn). If your a free marketeer with good trading partners then you would be rolling in cash, but for a poorer faction (Gaian's prehaps?) it could provide a handy cash boost. Basically the SA colony is not one for the marketeers. (it has obvious merit for the Hive)

Another SP which I often pass by is the Longlivity Vaccine, the only time I tend to build it is as the Hive, putting the final nail in the drone control coffin. It can also be usfull to provide extra drone control during pop-booms, either saving a little on pysch, or making GA's a little easier for the Cyborgs, Pirates or Hive. Overall of limited use.

	09-08-2001 12:55									#29
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quote: the higher your planet rating, the more it messes you up in ED!?

I think minerals produced from Fungus doesn't effect "mindworm pops". At least in my latest game I was producing hundreds of minerals with the help of Fungus and facilities. There was an ecodamage, yes, but no pops since every square had fungus in it. I guess it still affects global warming but otherwise it's cool

quote: Now, if this is different in Smax, I apologize.

I think it is, you're welcome...

	09-08-2001 13:43									#30
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Ah, if there is nowhere for fungus to grow then fungus doesn't grow.

I've used this in an OCC once, I drilled 6 boreholes in my city radius, then covered everything in fungus (with help from pops and mindworm cash). Then I just pushed my mineral production through the roof, ED in the hundreds and no pops. Slighty strange OCC strategy, but a lot of fun.