08-08-2001 07:53									#1
	damn it!!! what am i doing wrong! Remove this text

i like to play prince most of my time and i have a few problems that always make winning damn near impossible!

1-im incredably good at keeping up in tech until the ai starts trading en-masse and i run out of city room! help! im not slow, i just cant keep up with: "france give zulus writing, zulus give french gunpowder, french give englis gunpowder...." the entire planet catches up to me in 3 turns!!

2-i cant get any good early wonders, id rather develop my citys than build them.

3-the AI tends to do the "allie up against me and refuse to do anything with me real early on! like 1300's!

4-i always say "im gona build citys right up till the end" but i usually get sidetracked and dont. does that matter?

5-i tend to be awkwardly rich early on but then my riches go down the tube its annoying!

6-in demo i cant seem to get a good science rate up like some of you do! that sucks!

7-this is more of a personal problem but in my last few games ive learned to hate the english as they get all the wonders i want! last game they got both leo AND gl. what the hell! also the zulus retarded agression tends to get on my nerves as well!

	08-08-2001 08:13									#2
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Don't build the GL on Prince; you won't need it.

Don't bother building cities past #20 or so; it's just a distraction.

Is every city square around every city RRed+farmland/mine? If not, then you've made a mistake. Every city should have at least 1 engineer working full time.

	08-08-2001 11:41									#3
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splangy
There are many levels in this game. If you tell us you lose almost every game at prince level, this means that you should play a few games at warlord level. Don't forget to read the GL in the meantime (information and morale are important: the GL will give you information and playing a level that makes it possible for you to win will improve your morale).
Don't hesitate to ask questions. There is almost certainly at least one person on this forum able to give you an answer to any question you might ask.
Good civing , splangy.

	08-08-2001 13:09									#4
	Get a bigger avatar today!

1 - Make contact with the other civs and trade techs with them. In the early years, they are almost always willing to trade techs with you and you can reap the benefits.

2 - What do you mean "develop" your cities? I wouldn't suggest building any improvment other than a temple in your cities until you're required to build an aquifer. Build caravans to develop trade, build dips to make contact/steal from the other civs, build settlers to found new cities and build roads.

3- The AI will always team up against the human player who is winning.

4 - Continually expanding your empire (through city building) isn't necessary but it helps if you are interested in having "high scores".

5 - In Democracy, don't forget to immediately increase your lux rate to at least 30% (I usually choose 40%). The amount of tax/sci you get is directly related to your trade routes. So develop them early on and you'll be sitting pretty.

6 - I feel that way about the French. They always seem to be right up there on the tech tree with a very high [cheating AI] sci rate even though they are a 5-city monarchy. Nothing you can do about it except to change the British civ from 0,1,0 (expansionist) to -1,-1,1 (rational, perfectionist, civilized) - but then they become the Babylonians...

	08-08-2001 13:12									#5
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some tips that might help
- try to have at least 1 settler/engineer per city to improve city radii
-build caravans to build wonders(just stack those caravans until you need them)
-try to build Great wall/united Nations, this gives you a little break
against aggressive AI
-if Demo doesn't work for you go to Communism (3 free defence units,no corruption,no unhappiness,max 80%)
-if you attack make sure you win/take over city
-build spies/dips to bribe/steal/cheat the hell out of the game (my personal strategy)

Shade

	08-08-2001 19:40									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

1. To expand on the above suggestions, trade techs early on. You spare yourself the time of having to research them. Also, your cost of researching (as the tech leader) is greater - the game brings some parity to research, the beaker cost is less for those trailing behind. If you close the tech gap, you are penalized less. Give worthless techs away to close this gap. If you don't care if all the world knows construction, give it to everybody.

4. Don't worry about continuous expansion. You gain more by having a reasonable (to you) number of cities that grow large.

5. Your late game finance troubles probably are the result of building more improvements than your trade can afford. Build less, trade more. Instead of a cathedral in all 20 cities (60g/turn upkeep, 2400 shields to build them), build Michaelangelo's Chapel for 400 shields - Just eight caravans! For more direct aid, build Adam Smith's - all temples, granaries, marketplaces, libraries, and more are free!

6. Trade heavily! Caravans are your best friends in this game. They give you gold and a science boost upon delivery, and increase arrows in the trading city. This all adds up to a strong science rate. Those you don't deliver are stockpiled for building wonders.

	08-08-2001 20:26									#7
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spangly,
reading in between the lines, the reason your money is being eaten up is because you are building city improvements that you don't need. each improvement costs money to maintain each turn, don't build a temple in a city that is in no danger of rioting or an aqeduct in a city that is n't going to get to size 8 anytime soon, on prince you should be able to build a marketplace long before you need a temple by whichtime the revenue from the market will pay the maintenance on the temple, same principal with bank and aqueduct. also you need to build wonders, the pyramids is probally the best early wonder on prince as it allows fast growth and saves you building granarys in all your cities(and paying the maintenance)

in short look at the wonders again and don't build improvements just to mnake the city picture look pretty

	08-08-2001 21:28									#8
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quote: Originally posted by shade -if Demo doesn't work for you go to Communism (3 free defence units,no corruption,no unhappiness,max 80%) (Shade

...and VET SPIES: the most powerful unit in this game
(I built more than 200 in my last game)
For example, look at sabotaging enemy units: those units lose half their strength at once, so you kill them easily afterwards, and the cost is low since, out of 10 vet spies sabotaging units, you lose less than 3!

(La Fayette, after successful attack of a strong enemy army, now yellow coloured and almost unable to fight)

	09-08-2001 00:46									#9
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by fittstim 2 - What do you mean "develop" your cities? I wouldn't suggest building any improvment other than a temple in your cities until you're required to build an aquifer. Build caravans to develop trade, build dips to make contact/steal from the other civs, build settlers to found new cities and build roads.

aquiwhat? you don't play civ often, do you? first of all, you should build a library in each city before building an aqueduct.

quote: 3- The AI will always team up against the human player who is winning.

wrong. if done right, you can have many strong allies, even when you're winning the game

quote: 5 - In Democracy, don't forget to immediately increase your lux rate to at least 30% (I usually choose 40%). The amount of tax/sci you get is directly related to your trade routes. So develop them early on and you'll be sitting pretty.

I don't develop any trade routes yet only put my lux rate at 20%. I can do that because I build Mike's and Bach's early in the game. in a war (with units outside of cities), putting it to 30% or more is wise

	09-08-2001 01:36									#10
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

thanks for the tips, heres a few other things that i now see are important.

first, its not that i cant win, ive tried diety and have done pretty damn good (2020-18,000 citisens, and only 3 of 7 AI left), its just that when i lose certain things (i always play bloodlust, so if i lose leo i quit), it becomes real tedius.

i never knew caravans were so important, what citys are best to trade with?
i like to build alot of early city improvement, what should i build?
what weopons are best? are spys really that great?
what govemants are best for a perfectionist, conquest, anti-AI(i really hate the ai) play style.
what kinds of things SHOULD i do in diplomacy?
one time, i was a african civiization (obviusly the world map) and i irigated, and colooniseed, and mined, and roaded EVERY TILE in africa, was that sane?

thanks for the help!!!

	09-08-2001 17:27									#11
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by splangy i never knew caravans were so important, what citys are best to trade with?

Big ones, on rivers, on another continent, belonging to another civ. But any big, trade heavy city is good

quote: i like to build alot of early city improvement, what should i build?

Temple - at Prince level, in Monarchy, you do not need it till size 6 probably, unless you have 16+ cities. The next thing you need is an aqueduct at size 8. Only build a library or market place if you're producing >10 beakers and >4 gold, and are building a science-specialist city

quote: what weopons are best?

In the early game in my opinion, diplomats, elephants and Legions. Against walls you need catapults. Diplos should do reconnaisance, highlighting where enemy units are when in the field, and giving you some idea of what defence is in a city.

quote: are spys really that great?

Oh yes - what units are in the city? Want to destroy the walls? Want to buy a city instead of throwing units at it? A vet spy is your woman!! Send them into a city to sabotage a random improvement, and you have an excellent chance of getting a veteran. Then you can go for wall sabotage and cheap city purchases.

quote: what govemants are best for a perfectionist, conquest, anti-AI(i really hate the ai) play style.

I am not sure that perfectionist and conquest go together. There are plenty of infinite-city-sprawl (ICS) advocates around, where most cities are size 2.

quote: what kinds of things SHOULD i do in diplomacy?

Demand tribute for your patience!! and give tech gifts.

quote: one time, i was a african civiization (obviusly the world map) and i irigated, and colooniseed, and mined, and roaded EVERY TILE in africa, was that sane?

Depends on when you did it. Don't irrigate until you are close to monarchy, or only have plains squares available. Dont road non-shielded grass. Only improve the squares you can use immediately or very soon. And dont improve them at all (or hardly at all) until you have your first four cities underway.

	09-08-2001 18:04									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Ecthelion aquiwhat? you don't play civ often, do you? first of all, you should build a library in each city before building an aqueduct. wrong. if done right, you can have many strong allies, even when you're winning the game I don't develop any trade routes yet only put my lux rate at 20%. I can do that because I build Mike's and Bach's early in the game. in a war (with units outside of cities), putting it to 30% or more is wise

You're a mean, unpleasant person, Ecthelion

Plus, I totally disagree with you about the library...

	09-08-2001 18:08									#13
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splangy, depending on how you play your game, I think that dips and spies are the most important units in the game. They can bring a lagging civ up to par with the leading civ but also bring the leading civ down to the bottom. Oh so powerful are they.

Spies are even more powerful because they aren't destroyed after their use and you can steal one tech after another from the same city (dips can't do this).

	09-08-2001 18:30									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

They are also very handy, when positioned (but not fortified) outside border cities, to warn about incoming spies ready to plunder mobile warfare or space flight.

	10-08-2001 09:38									#15
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thanks!! i just played a game with you tips and wn by conquest 19 somtin! thanks again!!!

	10-08-2001 22:28									#16
	Inflate your Upload Space

build HG as soon as you get pottery. no more need fro temples early on.

	11-08-2001 09:31									#17
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as others have said, be careful in builfing improvements, - a marketplace adds 50% to trade, but costs 1 maintenance, so (given the rounding) its not profitable until the city has 4 trade. Which can be increased by road building, or trade routes. Similarly(though less obviously0 for other improvements

which (for a player who is used to building every improvement) leads to the question "what SHOULD i build, when there are no worthwhile improvements, and i cant use/support more military units" - answer -(in the words of a wise civver) unless theres a reason to build something else, build caravans. then build some more caravans.

LOTM

	28-08-2001 13:26									#18
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think my philosophy is rather unpopular, but I say when in doubt, let the game decide. There's two things: Auto building (auto in build window), with either domestic or military and auto engineers (K).

The advisors are excellent at keeping un-needed improvments about until you can acually benefit (or "need" them), and they also tend to supply you with more than enough military units. It's all about managment.

Some notes:
This helps with huge civs with many cities, less micromanagment.
Engineers/settlers will only transform mountains, and will not settle. This you must do.
Towards the end when all improvments and techs are in light, the advisors will run out of ideas, even if there are remaining improvments and units needed. Then setting cities to a certain unit is good.
I don't think the advisors ever build dips and spies. This you must do. Good for tech gaps.

And then there's that whole "make the capital marble, and the provinces brick" thing.

Well, just a suggestion. Try lots of things and you'll find what works best for you.

	28-08-2001 15:25									#19
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quote: Originally posted by splangy are spys really that great?

Spys are great at the beginning of the game if you have money. You can buy an AI city at a cheap price. If the AI has lots of money, you get a big refund plus a tech.

	28-08-2001 15:31									#20
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by splangy what weapons are best?

I usually avoid major fighting at the beginning of the game. Just the closest AI for defensive reasons (an offense is the best defence).

What I prefer to do is wait until the end game. I develop my science quickly until I get robotics and then use howitzers, the most under-rated weapon on these forums, to wipe out the AIs.

An army of say a dozen or more howitzers, combined with railroad and defensive units will cut through the AI like a knife through butter.

The trick is to attack once, then pull back the howitzer along the railline (so you don't lose MPs) and send in another. Once the city is taken, use the remaining howitzer to take out the partisans.

You will rarely ever lose a howitzer in battle.

If the AI has nukes, you need a bigger army so that each howitzer hits once and then moves to safe location `cause the AI will nuke the city it lost if it can.

The great thing about this strategy is it doesn't matter how big the AI empire is. I can usually take dozens of cities with this simple attack approach.

The key is build up your army under Fund. and use your engineers to build rail links to AI cities.

That's the basics of it.

	28-08-2001 21:42									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai I get robotics and then use howitzers, the most under-rated weapon on these forums, to wipe out the AIs.

You probably haven't read much if you think that howitzers are under-rated on this forum.
Most experienced players consider them the second most powerful weapon available (just after vet spies).
The plain fact is tnat, in an ordinary game, real warmongers conquer the world with horses, long before anyone starts dreaming to research robotics.
Scenarios are something else...
You might read the thread named 'Arriba' (winning ww2 with smaller civs) if you wish to have some idea of what can be achieved with howitzers.

	29-08-2001 08:13									#22
	Re: howitzers Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette The plain fact is tnat, in an ordinary game, real warmongers conquer the world with horses, long before anyone starts dreaming to research robotics.

Ouch. Now that was some jab.

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Scenarios are something else... You might read the thread named 'Arriba' (winning ww2 with smaller civs) if you wish to have some idea of what can be achieved with howitzers.

Where is that thread?

	29-08-2001 10:56									#23
	Re: Re: howitzers Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Tingkai Where is that thread?

Just alike any other thread on this forum, it doesn't appear on your screen any longer after a while.
There are 2 main ways to find it:

1) 'Search' function
A very powerful tool at your disposal (thank you Apolyton!).
Look at the top of this page: 'search' is written in blue. You click there and then you write 'arriba'. (another time you can write 'La Fayette' and you get all the threads that I have started: certainly worth reading )

2) List of older threads
Look at the end of this page. The small numbers written in blue are where to click. Number 1 corresponds to the page you have on your screen ('newest' threads, 'newest' meaning that someone has posted recently). Click on number 2; you get slightly older threads, and so on. If you have a lot of sparetime, you might read all threads (and then the archive: that is precisely what I did when coming to Apolyton; believe me, it's real fun reading about Ming's high score for example
).
I would advise that you start with the GL (first thread at the top of this page, started by the highly revered SGs ).


(La Fayette, sending a friendly smile to Ming and the SGs)

	06-09-2001 14:40									#24
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To expand build knights (Vet: This is very important)
Don't build any city improvements, except barracks.
In one city you build HG for happiness.
Suddenly you got a fast and strong army, which kills all opponents on your continent.

Now you can conquer the world or improve your science and launch a space ship.

Quite easy

Dom

	14-09-2001 19:24									#25
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And don't forget the beaker bonus for each caravan establishing a trade route. This is a significant boost to your research efforts and will provide a lasting benefit to income and discovery. Couple this with some diplomats to scarf up enemy units and barbs, and you're well on your way.

	20-09-2001 10:02									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Tingkai What I prefer to do is wait until the end game. I develop my science quickly until I get robotics and then use howitzers

This is possible in 'Warlord' mode, but when in Emperor/Deity, with the AI waiting for a good occasion to kick your ass, waiting for robotics is too long....

1. Build 5-6 transports
2. Load these transports with spies and Cannon/Crusaders/Artillery/...
3. Be sure that the AI has his cities connected by rail, if it's not the case, give 'em railroad, and wait a little bit,...
4. Incite a revolt in a city that have a access to the sea
5. Enter the city with your transports, this way your canon/artillery will keep his 1 movement
6. Conquer the civ

Note: an vet. artillery can easily beat a alpine/fusillier behind a city wall

Build the UN, this will allow you (under fundy) to declare war when you want, and to make peace, when you want,...

	20-09-2001 13:09									#27
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quote: Originally posted by rixxe Note: an vet. artillery can easily beat a alpine/fusillier behind a city wall

Uhmm ... not easily

Vet Artillery attacks at 15
Non-Vet Alpine Troops behind walls defend at 15
Vet Alpine Troops behind walls defend at 22.5

-----------------------

SG(2)

	20-09-2001 14:10									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Uhmm ... not easily SG(2)

Ok, without dying

	20-09-2001 14:17									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Vet Artillery attacks at 15 Non-Vet Alpine Troops behind walls defend at 15 SG(2)

But artillery is the first unit to have a firepower of 2, so it should easily beat a non-vet alpine behind walls. If the alpines are vets or on a river (or, horror of horrors, both!), the artillery will take some losses.

	20-09-2001 15:49									#30
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Sorry! - I had forgotten how good Artillery can be.

Results of a quick test in CHEAT MODE

Vet Artillery v Non Vet Alpine Troops - City built on Plains with Walls.
Artillery Wins 5 - 0

Vet Artillery v Vet Alpine Troops
Artillery win 2 - Apline Troops win 3
This is close as all winning troops were red!

rixxe - keep building those big guns

------------------

SG(2)