13-08-2001 01:33									#1
	I wonder why Americans.... Enter the AD-FREE zone

...are set in as a Civilization in this Game ?

I think the only reason they are in, is because Americans are making it.

I know most of you are americans, sorry btw, but in fact your "civ" instead of the spanish or portuguese sounds kinda very "national-proud" of the developers, since you are mostly european, asian and african natives.

Americans are not really a Civ, they are an independent colony, in historian view.

So I am not trying to be mean or something, but i want to have this explained.

I know most of you americans dont know where Europe or Africa is, neither do most of you know, that America has borders, but do you really think they have a bigger "cultural" aspect as the Spanish ??

Remember: Los Angeles was actually spanish...

I dont get your way of "we are the best"....its just a game!

Be honest and dont be arrogant. I love my german culture and I'm really happy we are in the game!

Comments from educated minds ?

	13-08-2001 01:37									#2
	Increase Your PM Length

there is no reasonable explanation... apart that this is just a game...

	13-08-2001 01:47									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Well, this thread is just an invitation for spam, and I hosetly don't give it much of a chance for surviving a few posts before the mods step in, but here's an attempt at an educated answer

The US is currently the single greatest economic and military power in the world and has been at least economically the most powerful for almost a century, the military power is debatable for during the Cold War years. This power will remain for at least the near-future as well. It'll be a good 15-20 years before there is another serious challenger for the "most powerful" nation title. In the Civ games, most of the nations were built on conquest or made famous by war, why then exclude the nation who has been the most powerful nation for longer then the Alexander the Great even lived?

The Americans have created a culture that is strong and vibrant, whether you like it or hate it, the American culture is rapidly influxing itself into other nation's cultures as well (blue jeans and McDonalds anyone?) Civ3 is making a big push for culture, and American culture is so strong that other countries are just trying to keep it out (look at the French trying to outlaw Americanized French words)

When you look at civilizations the Americans are also a mix of everyone. America consists of immigrants from every part of the world. In essence then, America is a summation of all the past civilizations and cultures all in one place. If only for that reason, then America should be included.

What I think the main problem with people against America is the same problem as the Civ2 AI. You're big, we hate you. Simplistic, but probably closer to the truth then people will admit.

edit: changed a paragraph for clearer reading

	13-08-2001 02:01									#4
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh jesus!!

I do not hate you!!!


I want to have explained why american culture comes before spanish culture ????

This game is not a cold war game or any type of REAL LIFE!!!

I want to know what made the Developers think of putting them in as a "Civ"....

They could also have been customizable..instead of Spain!

hmm ?

PS: i dont doubt american military power these days, but my question was highly GAME RELATED!!
And in my Civ Game i'd rather put native americans, cuz these ones were killed, so americans are a colony! thats the european view of things
Americans are nice and friendly (sometimes ) but regarding to this game...its unfair!

Last edited by Uffty on 13-08-2001 at 02:08

	13-08-2001 02:12									#5
	Support Apolyton

Well first off... economic reasons. I am a US citizen and NEVER play the americans, but I suspect that there are others who feel differently. They can't alienate the consumers.

And yes, as Serapis pointed out, the US is the culturally, economically, and militarily dominant force in the world right now. Fireaxis just can't write it off. The US isn't going to be a footnote in history books (not that the Spanish are) but you can't ignore the US. They're too big.

And I do take offense to the suggestion that we can't locate anyplace outside the US on a map. How do you think we target our missiles? (that was a joke) But seriously Americans aren't as uneducated as they pretend to be.

Yeah, the Spanish founded a mission at L.A., but it was hardly the cultural center that it is today. The US has definitely proved themselves as a power (if not a civ in its own right) in the last World Wars.

I think that Spain should have made it in, but not over the Americans. Of course everyone is entitled to his or her own opinions.

	13-08-2001 02:19									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Spain was just an imperialist country that picked on the Native Americans who never had a chance. It was also bad victory too, because by getting easy gold and silver from the Americas, they lost their industrial power at home because they could just buy whatever they wanted.
Spain was never the world power that Britain or France were. While there is no arguement they were a major European nation, they were always second fiddle to stronger countries. The Spanish Armada was their chance, it lost.
Los Angeles was a small missionary town until the US conquered Mexico and took over the Western US just before the gold rush. After the gold rush there was little spanish except in name. It's been recultured through immigration since then and regained a lot of its spanish culture, but it was not a thriving spanish culture you make it sound to be. I take this information directly from Sherman's Memoirs (Civil War general). He was stationed in California during the Mexican War and travelled all over the California coast and spends a lot of time describing the place as there was little actual fighting in California during that war.

	13-08-2001 02:23									#7
	THAAAAAAAAANKS Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Thanks a lot .........jsw363 ..... i'm sorry if you all felt attacked or so....i didnt mean that!

I was confused cuz it seemed not clear for me....and as a
very STRONG European Union-Citizen i needed to get rid of my opinion...

Both answers given here were highly clearing...and i thank you both for that!

I still see no culture though.....OK i'll be quiet now

Anyway....17th Oct. 2001 is release!!

	13-08-2001 02:28									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

A little clarification...Yes, the US as well as other European powers were just as bad at using the native americans and other imperialist countries, but they grew from their imperialism, not collapsed because of it as the spanish did. Which only goes to show that wealth can be a blessing as much as a curse

	13-08-2001 02:34									#9
	Re: I wonder why Americans.... Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Uffty

1 the spanish should be in
2 not at the expense of the Americans; the major superpower of the 20th century, but perhaps at the expense of another power because the Spanish WERE a superpower for a few hundred years.

	13-08-2001 02:56									#10
	Re: I wonder why Americans.... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Uffty ...are set in as a Civilization in this Game ? I think the only reason they are in, is because Americans are making it. I know most of you are americans, sorry btw, but in fact your "civ" instead of the spanish or portuguese sounds kinda very "national-proud" of the developers, since you are mostly european, asian and african natives. Americans are not really a Civ, they are an independent colony, in historian view. So I am not trying to be mean or something, but i want to have this explained. I know most of you americans dont know where Europe or Africa is, neither do most of you know, that America has borders, but do you really think they have a bigger "cultural" aspect as the Spanish ?? Remember: Los Angeles was actually spanish... I dont get your way of "we are the best"....its just a game! Be honest and dont be arrogant. I love my german culture and I'm really happy we are in the game! Comments from educated minds ?

There's hardly a race/nationality on earth that I would consider to be pure. By that I mean that settlers have wondered all the areas of the earth and I can't imagine that any "civ" have evolved from (whatever you believe) to be pure of only that race. Granted that some "civ's" are older than others and have more roots to the land, but that does not mean that they are any more or less a "civ" unto themselves. We all have our differences and likenesses, we should celebrate that.

BTW, would you consider the Native Americans an ancient civ?

	13-08-2001 03:06									#11
	Got spare money?

if u go far enough back, everone is from Africa, thats where we started.

and for a while, everyone in Europe was Roman. When Rome Split, people became French, German, Spainish (after a while i guess). after Englands Empire Broke Up we became america. sorry were only 200 years old.

if we colonized mars, and they broke away, would they not be a civ?

and in all fairness, America has impacted the world in a major way in it's 200 year history.

sure, maybe it wasn't the BEST impacts, and many were self-serving, but you other natioins forget your own past. the Fench placed EXTREME DEBTS on the Germans after ww1 that basically set up Hitler to come into power. when he came into power, the British and others (not french so much) had a policy of "appeasement" and basically let Hitler rule in his Facist way, because Germany was bad off.

and lets not forget the exploitation of the colonies.

come on. all nations do bad things.

"the ends justify the means".

tru. tru.

Last edited by Inverse Icarus on 13-08-2001 at 03:17

	13-08-2001 03:16									#12
	Got spare money?

Great point Uber!

	13-08-2001 04:03									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Spain was never the world power that Britain or France were. While there is no arguement they were a major European nation, they were always second fiddle to stronger countries. The Spanish Armada was their chance, it lost.

Serapis, paragraphs like the one above do not help Uffty and others realize they are wrong when claim that Americans are ignorant. With all due respect, I would like to advise you to read a bit more about European history, especially XV to XVII centuries.

	13-08-2001 04:13									#14
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The Spanish were extremely powerful for a not-too-short period of time and were easily the most powerful country in the world at this time, hence they were the nation behind the discovery of the Americas and the first contacts over there. It was only when their power waned that other nations capitalised on the New World.

Spanish should not be dismissed like that. Their impact on society has been quite tremendous and most certainly deserve to be regarded as a civ in their own right, more than many others.

	13-08-2001 04:41									#15
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison The Spanish were extremely powerful for a not-too-short period of time and were easily the most powerful country in the world at this time ...

Well, that may be true for most of the 16th century, but then the Spanish were defeated by the Dutch and the English who ruled the 17th and 18th century respectively, until the French really messed things up (again ). And during all that time, there were other powerful tribes not that much behind. Techwise, the Dutch contributed more to human history than the Spanish, and they are still a major economic power today, but the Dutch aren't in either.

The reason the Americans are in is pretty obvious: Firaxis wants a modern tribe from that continent and it was a toss-up between Americans and Canadians

	13-08-2001 06:56									#16
	Remove this text

Aye wood respawned but aye dont reed to gud, 'cause ahm an amerrikan.

	13-08-2001 07:08									#17
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It always baffles me when people post that "America is not a civ." That's ridiculous. I'm just going to make some points at random here.

First, you are confusing "civilization" and "race" or "language." That's like saying the French aren't a proper civ because they speak a dialect of Latin. And that leads to another point: origin is irrelevant. So the US started out as a colony: so what? France started out as a region of the Roman Empire. Carthage was a Phoenician colony. It doesn't matter that Los Angeles was originally a Spanish settlement. Do you consider Marseille a Greek city? How about Istanbul? Is New York a Dutch city? Is that what people think of when think of New York -- the Dutch? Samarkand reached its apogee under the Mongols (Tamerlane). Los Angeles reached its apogee under the Americans.

That leads to culture: America's culture had and continues to have undeniable impact on the world, and it is undeniably unique. New forms of art (cinema, rock music, jazz, blues) and architecture (the first buildings with non load-bearing walls, which permitted skyscrapers) were developed or brought to fruition here; America contributed great artists, writers, poets, scientists, inventors, entrepreneurs, and architects to world culture; American political institutions are admired and adopted around the rest of the world. The US is the most powerful country in the world (military power, however evanscent, is probably the only criterion according to which the Mongols would be considered a civ), as well as the richest -- richer than Carthage, China, Spain, or England during their golden ages.

I am forced to question: just what do you mean by a civ? About the only thing you can't say about Americans is that we've been around a long time, and that we have a unique language (though the English might disagree ), and we are not a homogenous people (but that in itself is another great thing about America: its practically a world unto itself, with large populations of almost every group of people in the world).

I certainly don't mean to suggest that America is better than everyone else, and I don't want to appear arrogant (I'm not), but you put me in a position where I am forced to assert the great things about America. I am only trying to prove a point. When historians review the record in 1000, 2000 years, you can be sure America will play a large part in their analysis. Can you imagine a history of the 20th century that excluded America, and that credited all American achievements to the English? It would be farcical.

It's also a bit insulting to claim that Americans don't know where Africa and Europe are, but moreover it's utterly unfathomable that you could make that claim of anyone who plays civ, whatever their national origin...

	13-08-2001 08:20									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I look up the word Civilization in the dictionary and we fit all description of that word. So we are a Civ. Around the world young people want our music, our clothes, our look, so we must be doing some thing right.
The other American who posted here did a real good job at it.

	13-08-2001 08:26									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think he has a point, but it applies to virtually all the civs in the game.

The term civilization doesn't refer to a nation specifically. If the literal definition were to apply, Western Civilization might be one civ. China would probably still constitute a distinct entity, but the Iroquois certainly wouldn't.

They'd be part of the aboriginal civilization, just as the aztecs were a part of mesoamerican civilization, which would include everyone from the Maya to the Toltecs.

All of these nations developed in the same region, built off each others cultures, science, and technology. They are intimately related, at very least closer than they are to, say, Western civilization.

I suppose you could divide Europe into the Anglo-Saxon civilization, the Mediterranean civilization, and so on, if you really wanted to.

People often talk about how Russia was torn between Western civilization and Eastern civilization. It might be a kind of hybrid in game terms.

Pointing at America as being 'wrong' for being included but not pointing out that Japan and Korea, for example, are part of a greater Eastern civilization (nationalistic biases notwithstanding, both countries derived much from China, and the populations of Southeast asia are composed of immigrants from Southern China, who displaced the dark skinned aboriginals who were there before them (and are still in Australia).

In the end, it's just easier to pick representative nations of a particular civilization.

Where do you really draw the lines, anyway? The Teutons of Scandinavia colonized parts of Germany, France, and finally England. Should England and Germany be one civ? What about the vikings in Normandy? And what about mediterranean countries like france, spain, and italy, whose culture is derived in many ways from ancient Rome? They are an outgrowth. Perhaps they do not deserve to be in the game either.



Phutnote

	13-08-2001 09:27									#20
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Phutnote China would probably still constitute a distinct entity, but the Iroquois certainly wouldn't. They'd be part of the aboriginal civilization, just as the aztecs were a part of mesoamerican civilization, which would include everyone from the Maya to the Toltecs.

Phutnote, my American history techaer had always given me the impression that the Native Americans had distinct nations with borders, languages, diplomatic relations, wars, whathaveyou. As an example, I believe the Iroquois nation was at war with the Algonquin nation.

It was just that their civilizations' virtues and accomplishments were marginalized by the European settlers' technological edge. Perhaps because most immigrants relegated their culture to the place of godless savages that it was never preserved (or systematically destroyed for non-christian views). Because of this, and the relatively non-concrete way of living and few written records, we may never know how great their civilizations were.

	13-08-2001 09:48									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Your history teacher certainly didn't lie to you, but by your own admission recorsd from that time from the point of view of the native americans are extremely scarce.

And its wrong to really group them in that way. Various groups lived various types of lives. Not all of them were nomadic.

But to place them in civlization as a civ, well, personally I don't think that any of the tribes/nations west of the missippi really fit the bill. Most of them were nomadic because of the area they lived, and nomadic nations simply cannot develop the leisure time to progress scientificly, which when you consider civivilaztions 1,2,3 focus, really is the defining idea of a nation.

The united states has existed as a seperate entity for over two hundred years. It has made significant developments in technology and has greatly influenced many other nations. And most critical, it is a single nation. Can that be said of the greeks? Certainly not. Even after alex they didn't stay a united whole for very long.

I think two hundred years is plenty, and the sheer influence the united states has produced makes it a worthy addition to civ.

But did they have to make one of our best presidents look so damn goofy? well, at least he ain't an ape. heh heh.

	13-08-2001 10:05									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Yes, we Americans are a civilization - we even have our own cultural identity.

In civ, I play the Americans about half the time - but I play them green and throw in some Canadian cities. After all, United Staters are merely southern Canadians.

	13-08-2001 14:42									#23
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I think the Americans should be included as a civ - after all, who would revolt against the British?

	13-08-2001 14:57									#24
	Support Apolyton

America is probably in for the very same reason that Sid added it as a last minute change in Civ1: They need it to sell the game in the US.

(I just wonder what civ never made it to the shops in Civ1)

	13-08-2001 22:53									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Laz, from my understanding it's perfectly possible for diffeerent elements of the same civilization to go to war with each other. The protestants and catholics fought, the semitic peoples fight each other, Iran and Iraq fight each other, the Greeks city states fought each other constantly.

In fact, the ancient Greek city states could be seen as each a separate civilization by the logic of the game, in which the US and Britain (not to mention Germany and the rest of Western Europe) are seen as separate civilizations.

The Iroquois constitute a separate nation within the same civilization as the other plains indians.

It all comes down to how literally and how strictly you want to interpret the term 'civilization'.

Phutnote

	13-08-2001 23:36									#26
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: (I just wonder what civ never made it to the shops in Civ1)

The Turks were excluded. They still were in the booklet but at the latest moment replaced by the Germans.

	14-08-2001 01:36									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

The one civ that most certainly does NOT belong is the Native Americans (Red Indians)

They do not belong at all because 1. The Iroquis League existed maybe 50 years... 100 at the most.

2. They were never all united. At best they should all be lumped into one group "Native Americans"

3. They never had political clout and only today have any because people 'feel sorry' for taking advantage of their anscestors.

4. They were more a cooperative group than a civilization or a Communism.

Thus we should replace the NAmericans with either the Mongols or the Spanish, two much greater, better civilizations.

	14-08-2001 01:58									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Tventano The Turks were excluded. They still were in the booklet but at the latest moment replaced by the Germans.

I remember reading the manual thinking, The Turks seem really cool I think i'll play them now, only to be disappointed by their nonexistance. Aaahh memories

	14-08-2001 02:00									#29
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud The one civ that most certainly does NOT belong is the Native Americans (Red Indians) They do not belong at all because 1. The Iroquois League existed maybe 50 years... 100 at the most.

Try 376 year + a few. The Aztec and Inca were around for 220 to 240 years each.

quote: 2. They were never all united. At best they should all be lumped into one group "Native Americans"

The Iroquois was, they had Six tribes in the League.

quote: 3. They never had political clout and only today have any because people 'feel sorry' for taking advantage of their ancestors.

The White Man did not care about their clout. The Indians had two choice. Move away or stay and died. The White Man was going to take their land either way.

quote: Thus we should replace the NAmericans with either the Mongols or the Spanish, two much greater, better civilizations.

I believe Sid and Firaxis will make that decision.

	14-08-2001 02:45									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

This is an odd thread. Why do we have to choose between the civs? Why not include an editor and we can put them all in. If a "civilization" is defined as a body of people sharing a common heritage, culture, economy, scientific/religious structure, and politiclal understanding, then many different cultures and nationalities will qualify.

If we pit the civs againt each other, then let's be honest. 1)The Iroquois apparently were at their "civilization" longer and more successfully than the Germans. (They were not "Plains Indians," but were housed permanently in an agriculturallly-based society.) They did not have religious wars and did not burn their own citizens at the stake. They had a shared government for over 350 years, vice 150 for Germany so far. 2)Hungary was a successful state longer than Vienna has been a city. 3)Austria was a successful empire while "Germany" was still a concept. 4)Turkey (Seljuks, then Ottomans) had a longer peak in all four categories + heritage than any European "civilization" since then.

If origins count, then the French are really Germans. (Origin: Franks who overran and dispersed the Gauls, many of whom were also Germanic in origin.) As are the English. (Origin: Angles, Saxons, Normans, all people of Germanic background.) The Andalusians (Basque) seem to have a pure origin -- should we include them? Most of the peoples in Western and Northern Europe seem to have gotten there because someone else drove them out of their previous homes. Shouldn't the drivers be in the game? As the winners didn't have writing, we are forced to exclude them.

By any reasonable measure North America qualifies as a culture and a civilization, Spain qualifies as a major historical world power, and the Iroquois have as legitimate a claim as a ton of other civs to representation.