15-08-2001 03:15									#1
	Most influential Spanish person ever - your vote counts! Increase Your PM Length

As suggested by Jay Bee, let's divide this into cathegories so that's easier for us to decide. I want your input, eh?

These are the cathegories:

1. Ancient / Middle Ages (since the beginning till circa 1475)

1.a. Visual Arts
1.b. Literature
1.c. Philosophy/Religion
1.d. Politics/Military
1.e. Science


2. Rise of the Spanish Empire (circa 1475-1600)

2.a. Visual Arts
2.b. Literature
2.c. Philosophy/Religion
2.d. Politics/Military
2.e. Science


3. The Golden Century (17th Century)

3.a. Visual Arts
3.b. Literature
3.c. Philosophy/Religion
3.d. Politics/Military
3.e. Science


4. Our dark centuries (18th and 19th Centuries)

4.a. Visual Arts
4.b. Literature
4.c. Philosophy/Religion
4.d. Politics/Military
4.e. Science


5. Contemporary (till today)

4.a. Visual Arts
4.b. Literature
4.c. Philosophy/Religion
4.d. Politics/Military
4.e. Science


So that makes 25 cathegories. Alles klar, Jay Bee?

Last edited by Fiera on 15-08-2001 at 04:34

	15-08-2001 03:16									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Uber alles sig heil Becken bauer, jah!

	15-08-2001 03:17									#3
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Oh, you're missing Science. The Gibraltarian may be right that we were not much into science, but a bit at least... that we did, yeah

	15-08-2001 03:18									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

Thitd post in a row What's visual arts?

	15-08-2001 03:33									#5
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Thitd post in a row What's visual arts?

Oh, I thought that was an English expression... Painting + Sculpture + Architecture, no?

Oh, and science... cómo se nota que soy de letras... Bueno, si quieres vota también por science, yo creo que no merec la pena ponerlo porque, aunque tenemos algunos científicos importantes, me temo que la elección no estaría muy disputada...

	15-08-2001 03:37									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Yes, you're right. I just wanted to make sure. I would have had painting separate from the others though. If we excel in something that's painting. No doubt about it.

As for science, you're right again (the gibraltarian, too but still I think we should have that section.

PS. Se te ocurre algun cambio mas?

	15-08-2001 03:38									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Definitely, I like my new avatar. Nobody could tell about the Osborne bull anyway

	15-08-2001 03:44									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Yes, you're right. I just wanted to make sure. I would have had painting separate from the others though. If we excel in something that's painting. No doubt about it. As for science, you're right again (the gibraltarian, too but still I think we should have that section. PS. Se te ocurre algun cambio mas?

Creo que no. Prefiero no separar pintura y lo demás, por no tener demasiadas categorías... Quiero decir, a los no españoles les va a costar encontrar candidato para más de una de las que ya tenemos, mejor no incluir más...

	15-08-2001 03:46									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Definitely, I like my new avatar. Nobody could tell about the Osborne bull anyway

At least the ones that have been in Spain... I had grown to love your old avatar... El Capitán Trueno was fine too.

Por cierto, sabes que el Madrid ha perdido el Trofeo Bernabéu?

	15-08-2001 03:48									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hawk Eye.

Just add science and let's start out with our nominations. Deal?

	15-08-2001 03:49									#11
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Fiera Por cierto, sabes que el Madrid ha perdido el Trofeo Bernabéu?

No, no lo sabia. Este Madrid anda un poco flojo. no?

	15-08-2001 03:54									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee No, no lo sabia. Este Madrid anda un poco flojo. no?

No jugaban ni Figo, ni Zidane, ni Roberto Carlos, ni Savio. Pero sí que es verdad que en general andan un poco bajos de forma. En especial Raúl. Me preocupa, creo que le ha sentádo mal la llegada de Zidane.

	15-08-2001 03:57									#13
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Hawk Eye. Just add science and let's start out with our nominations. Deal?

Added science and put together Philosophy + Religion. Let`s get started!

	15-08-2001 04:00									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

In case there are other mortals allowed to post here, I'd stick with Picasso for contemporary visual arts... (I have seen first and second graders talk about him, in contrary to Goya, which simply is why...)
Cervantes is an obvious choice for "Rise of the Spanish Empire" literature, imho

BTW, how do you like my new avatar (it's supposed to praise my German descendance )?

	15-08-2001 04:04									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel In case there are other mortals allowed to post here,

Hey, of course, we want to know the world's opinion!

quote: BTW, how do you like my new avatar (it's supposed to praise my German descendance )?

I like it, but it would look better if you made the background transparent, IMHO...

	15-08-2001 04:08									#16
	Support Apolyton

Yes, we'd love to hear the opinion of people like you, Stefan. Just leave blanks where you do not know what to say

I'm with Juan on the avatar thing. It's good but it would look better with a transparent background:

Attachment: barbarian.gif
This has been downloaded 51 time(s).

	15-08-2001 04:26									#17
	Support Apolyton

Oh, one last thing (promised). I think 'Contemporary' should be split into two: XVIII-XIX centuries and XX century. It's hard to compare the XX century with any other. So many things have recently recently (we were raised in the XX c., so that' the one we know best)

	15-08-2001 04:35									#18
	Put an end to popups!

OK, the final edit's been made. Vote, people, vote!

	15-08-2001 04:41									#19
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Thanx mister Gotta sleep now, but tomorrow first thing in the morning i'll post my picks. Surprisingly nice holyday, he, he

	15-08-2001 04:55									#20
	Re: Most influential Spanish person ever - your vote counts! Support Apolyton

These are my nominees:

1. Ancient / Middle Ages (since the beginning till circa 1475)

1.a. Visual Arts - Maestro Mateo
1.b. Literature - Jorge Manrique
1.c. Philosophy/Religion - San Isidoro de Sevilla
1.d. Politics/Military - Don Pelayo!
1.e. Science - Maybe San Isidoro too?


2. Rise of the Spanish Empire (circa 1475-1600)

2.a. Visual Arts - Berruguete
2.b. Literature - Cervantes
2.c. Philosophy/Religion - Fray Bartolomé de las Casas
2.d. Politics/Military - Fernando el Católico
2.e. Science - Miguel Servet


3. The Golden Century (17th Century)

3.a. Visual Arts - Velázquez
3.b. Literature - Lope
3.c. Philosophy/Religion - Quevedo
3.d. Politics/Military - Conde-Duque de Olivares
3.e. Science - ???

4. Our dark centuries (18th and 19th Centuries)

4.a. Visual Arts - Goya
4.b. Literature - Galdós
4.c. Philosophy/Religion - Jovellanos
4.d. Politics/Military - Riego
4.e. Science - Isaac Peral


5. Contemporary (till today)

5.a. Visual Arts - Picasso
5.b. Literature - Antonio Machado
5.c. Philosophy/Religion - Unamuno
5.d. Politics/Military - Franco
5.e. Science - Ramón y Cajal


Some notes to my list:

- Jorge Manrique is in for being the first Spanish Renaissance writer.
- Berruguete is a second-line painter, I know, but it was also the first to introduce Italian Renaissance novelties in Spain.
- Quevedo is relatively less known for his philosophical/political works but those were (along with those of Saavedra Fajardo) of great importance for universal Political Theory.
- Unamuno's philosophy is, IMO, of less depth than Ortega's work, but for some reason, his ideas have had the ability to influence harder the Spanish mind.
- Franco is, sadly, and with almost forty years at the helm, the most relevant figure of our political scene for the 20th Century.

Last edited by Fiera on 15-08-2001 at 18:51

	15-08-2001 05:22									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Well, here are my votes in general. Please note that I am not as familiar with Spain's history and culture, so I won't leave blank spaces but rather just list my votes:

1. Ancient / Middle Ages (since the beginning till circa 1475)

1.d. Politics/Military - Trajan, El Cid

2. Rise of the Spanish Empire (circa 1475-1600)

2.b. Literature - Cervantes
2.d. Politics/Military - Either Charles V. or Philipp II.

4.Your dark centuries (18th and 19th Centuries)

4.a. Visual Arts - Goya

5. Contemporary (till today)

5.a. Visual Arts - Picasso
5.d. Politics/Military - Franco

Explanations:
I went for how well-known the person is to the outside world. You see, if someone is known even to the most barbarous-like hillbilly, that's what I call famous, and, IMHO, one can get only that famous if he is influental.
1.d. is simple. I chose Trajan because he was a Spaniard and layed the groundwork for a lot of political changes in his time. This is, however, not entirely meant serious. I chose El Cid, because he is just the most well-known representor of Spain of the Middle Ages.
2.b. is obvious. So is 2.d., but I am not sure wether Charles V. (as he is known in Germany) was as important to Spain, so I thought Philipp II. would go for him; maybe just because of the Armada.
4.a.-obvious
5.a.-obvious as well, also because he is one of my favorite artists.
5.d.-obvious, on the same grounds Fiera pointed out.

I'm a novice to Spain, so please excuse these votes. If it was the same thing for Germany, I could fill books, but that's obvious I think.

PS: I'll consider that Avatar thingy.

	15-08-2001 06:28									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

My five cents on Spanish history... not much to say the least.

Unamuno, Cervantes...

Goya, Velazquez, Picasso...

El Cid, Isabel la Católica, Carlos V de Habsburgo...

Franco.

Fiera, que tal el Gran Capitan, eh?

	15-08-2001 19:00									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

El Gran Capitán was an outstanding general but not a good politician (which is to say something very positive about him ). At least he had no greater politic talent than his king Fernando, the genious of Renaissance politics and diplomacy, the one who was praised and constantly taken as an example by Machiavelli.

	15-08-2001 22:15									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Stefan Härtel ...one can get only that famous if he is influental.

Ah, influence and great deeds may bring one fame, but only colossal misdeeds and errors can guarantee it.

Is this about people actually from Iberia? De Gama, for example, might get chosen by someone, but he was Vasco, not Spanish...

Cervantes and Picasso must be included in the arts, they outshine almost the whole world in their eras. Were Cervantes and Shakespeare actual contemporaries, or almost? I forget the exact years...

In the other thread, someone asked why the english are so obsessed with the failed armada. I suspect it has something to do with righteousness. The armada, had it actually made it to england, would have given the english a serious headache. Alas, fate steps in and saves the day - Which is viewed as the hand of god favoring the english. Just my opinion, tho.

	16-08-2001 01:43									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Cervantes and Shakespeare died on the exact same day AFAIK.

	16-08-2001 03:26									#26
	Support Apolyton

Marquis,

Portuguese, not Vasco

Re: the Armada. You're right of course. What we Spaniards find so funny about the Armada is that according to English history (confirmed by most Apolyton posters of Anglosaxon origin/education), it signified the beginning of the end for Spain's naval supremacy and hence of the Spanish empire, which is totally wrong. For Spain it wasn't much more than a accident. Only 6 months were needed for Philip II to re-build the entire Atlantic fleet. The bottom line is, of course, that History is written by the victors and the victors have generally been the English.


Elawr, hit in the center of the nail. Funny coincidence that the two greatest writters of all time were to die the same day.

	16-08-2001 03:50									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

My votes goes to (but I need think on it!)

1.a Altamira's Cave!
1.b San Isidoro (el único historiador en un periodo de oscuridad)
1.c Maimonides
1.d Trajanos.
1.e Seneca

2.a El Greco (I know he is from Crete...)
2.b Cervantes
2.c Francisco Suárez (¡Derecho Internacional! Muy influyente a la larga)
2.d Carlos I
2.e Severt (no hay mucho donde escoger)

3.a Velazquez
3.b Calderón
3.c Quevedo, (Iba a dejarlo en blanco, pero gracias, Fiera)
3.d Olivares
3.e Tampoco yo se nada

4.a Goya
4.b Galdos
4.c Carlos III
4.d PataPalo (Gracias por el link, Waku)
4.e Peral (Tambien gracias, Fiera)

5.a Picasso
5.b Lorca
5.c Ortega
5.d Azaña
5.e Ramon y Cajal

	16-08-2001 04:56									#28
	Re: Most influential Spanish person ever - your vote counts! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

1. Ancient / Middle Ages (since the beginning till circa 1475)

1.a. Visual Arts The architect who designed the Archery of Cordoba's Mosque
1.b. Literature Alfonso X of Castile
1.c. Philosophy/Religion Seneca/San Isidoro
1.d. Politics/Military Al-Mansur
1.e. Science Maimonides/Averroes


2. Rise of the Spanish Empire (circa 1475-1600)

2.a. Visual Arts El Greco
2.b. Literature Cervantes
2.c. Philosophy/Religion Santa Teresa
2.d. Politics/Military The Catholic Monarchs
2.e. Science Miguel Servet


3. The Golden Century (17th Century)

3.a. Visual Arts Velázquez
3.b. Literature Lope de Vega (este podria caber en el siglo anterior, pero bueno
3.c. Philosophy/Religion Quevedo
3.d. Politics/Military Olivares
3.e. Science this one is tough...

4. Our dark centuries (18th and 19th Centuries)

4.a. Visual Arts Goya
4.b. Literature: Galdós
4.c. Philosophy/Religion Blanco White
4.d. Politics/Military: Blas de Lezo (Who else?)
4.e. Science Alessandro Malaspina (Italian, but under the service of Spain like so many others)


5. Contemporary (till today)

4.a. Visual Arts: Picasso
4.b. Literature: Lorca
4.c. Philosophy/Religion: Unamuno
4.d. Politics/Military:Franco
4.e. Science: Cajal


It seem that some areas are definitely clearer than others

	20-08-2001 00:31									#29
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

So? No more votes? Waku, Chris, Marquis?

	24-08-2001 15:15									#30
	These are my votes Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

1. Ancient / Middle Ages (since the beginning till circa 1475)

1.a. Visual Arts the cavemen who drawed the cave paintings and Alhambra´s architects
1.b. Literature who write "El cantar del Mio Cid" and the Muslim kings of the tiny kigdoms who build great libraries,per example, Al-Mutacin or Al-Mutamid
1.c. Philosophy/Religion Santiago (the tradition said that he carried the christianism to Spain, he wasn´t Spanish but...)
1.d. Politics/Military Abderraman III(who make Al Andalus independent from Bagdad)
1.e. Science Maimonides


2. Rise of the Spanish Empire (circa 1475-1600)

2.a. Visual Arts Juan de Herrera(who build El Escorial)
2.b. Literature Cervantes or Garcilaso
2.c. Philosophy/Religion Fray Luis de Leon, San Juan de la Cruz or Santa Teresa
2.d. Politics/Military The Catholic Monarchs or Philip II
2.e. Science


3. The Golden Century (17th Century)

3.a. Visual Arts Velázquez
3.b. Literature Quevedo or Lope
3.c. Philosophy/Religion
3.d. Politics/Military Conde Duque de Olivares
3.e. Science

4. Our dark centuries (18th and 19th Centuries)

4.a. Visual Arts Goya
4.b. Literature: Becquer
4.c. Philosophy/Religion Fray Benito Feijoo
4.d. Politics/Military: Nicolas Salmeron (he was the unique Republic president from Almeria)
4.e. Science


5. Contemporary (till today)

4.a. Visual Arts: Picasso
4.b. Literature: Garcia Lorca (queria poner Francisco Ibañez pero no se yo si reconocereis a Mortadelo y Filemon como clasicos de la literatura)
4.c. Philosophy/Religion: Fray Leopoldo(mi casa esta llena de estampitas de este pavo jeje)
4.d. Politics/Military:Franco (y Felipillo que??!!!:lol
4.e. Science: Ramon y Cajal