26-08-2001 09:57									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Both is true for Democracy as well.

There have never been any TRUE and GENUINE democracy or communism in the highest and most idealistic sense of the word. Like one could imagine it would be, if everybody who inhabited our planet where true angels or true moral geniuses, like Jesus himself.

Just take a look at this statement; "equal rights and treatment of all" - you see how badly this relates to reality? Both on a indevidual and on an international level?
OK then, but it is nevertheless the "least bad" choice we have. Whats the alternatives? What have the result been then brutal political/police-state force have been sanctioned in order to change things?

Perhaps current democracy is like an 9 year old, and current dictatorship is like an 6 years old (figurative speaking). Neither "clothes" can fit an grown up adult (in moral sense), but democratic gov-form is nevertheless a step in the right direction, or the "least bad" considering the alternatives, and the current development-level of mankind.

	26-08-2001 11:07									#32
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But if Democracy and Communism are not quite real, either, they could have well have kept Fundamentalism. I do not favour a Theocracy, but it is a realizable concept. For the same reason, Fascism should be in. Or they should make Despotism a viable alternative, like in CivI, where modern Despotism represented Fascism.

	26-08-2001 11:34									#33
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Or they should make Despotism a viable alternative, like in CivI, where modern Despotism represented Fascism.

Hmm - I see your point. Both despotism (especially despotism) and monarchy easily becomes stop-gap govs. Govs that you really cant use as worthwhile enough platforms, to do worthwhile things with. Especially not in the second half-part of the game. Perhaps an (to some degree) upgradeable despotism and monarchy gov-choice could push the life-cycle forward somewhat? If Firaxis have tweaked the govs like that, I dont know.

	26-08-2001 11:36									#34
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* repeats her original post and throws dictionaries and 'pedia into the room *

	26-08-2001 12:00									#35
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I guess it will come down to Democracy and Communism in the endgame since nothing else will be viable >sniff<

BTW, what were the so-called "unrealistic" governments in CTP!? I mean, theocracy may have been a bit strong in the first CTP, but other than that . . .

	26-08-2001 12:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Soren Johnson Firaxis I'm not sure where all this started

I know. It started May 26 with a preview that stated:
Rather than paying a production upkeep for your units, you will pay gold instead. This frees up shields for production but puts a slightly higher strain on your economy. The solution to this lies in the game's new government, Nationalism. Available later in the game, Nationalism is analogous to the ideology of early nineteenth century Europe. Think Napoleon here. To switch to Nationalism your culture rating must be quite high. The benefit of Nationalism is that you can mobilize your economy for war or peace.

And I brought it to the forum government discussion. And as no one from Firaxis said anything about it until now the idea has grown with the time.

	26-08-2001 23:27									#37
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Well, after stating it millions of times that nationalsim isn't a government choice in Civ3 I was finally proved right by a Firixian.

quote: I'm not sure where all this started, but Nationalism is NOT a form of government in Civ III. Nationalism is a Tech which allows you to draft citizens and switch to a war-time economy.

I'll say no more.

	26-08-2001 23:27									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah * repeats her original post and throws dictionaries and 'pedia into the room *

No nead to ready Your catapult. I realize that 'Theocracy' is a more precise term than Fundamentalism, but 'Fascism' is the term Mussolini used for his political system, so there´s nothing wrong with that. The question is: Should Theocracy and Fascism be in or not. I would like them to be in. But I would like a social engineering matrix, similar to AC, even better. But over at Firaxis they seem to think: The less the merrier.

	27-08-2001 04:05									#39
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I'm not going to be happy if there is a total limit on 5 governments. We better be able to edit the total amount and what they do.

	27-08-2001 14:59									#40
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins Well, after stating it millions of times that nationalsim isn't a government choice in Civ3 I was finally proved right by a Firixian.

The only thing I don't understand is why Firaxis didn't stop this rumor before.

	28-08-2001 08:49									#41
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Why?

Rumors makes good fuel for discussions, if nothing else.

	28-08-2001 10:01									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Like one could imagine it would be, if everybody who inhabited our planet where true angels or true moral geniuses, like Jesus himself

Jesus was not a moral genius. He just managed to leave the fugging cross once they stopped looking.

The difference between a religion and a cult is measured only by success.

	28-08-2001 10:44									#43
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quote: Originally posted by BlackStone I don`t believe that there are or have ever been and fundy govs in the world.

What about the U.S.

Just like with a fundamental gov't in Civ2, the U.S. makes lots of money; no one cares when it spies go around overthrowing governments; Americans seem perfectly happy having their troops stationed all over the world, outside their "cities;" and when other countries try to seek peace, the American gov't ignores them.

Sounds pretty fundy to me.

	28-08-2001 16:43									#44
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We all know that's not true, Tingkai. Your post may be light-hearted in nature, but the constant "America-bashing" in these forums really gets old. Almost none of the people who say things like that have actually lived in the U.S. Get off your high horse, your country is just as bad.

	28-08-2001 20:17									#45
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quote: "America-bashing" in these forums really gets old

"America-bashing" isn't restricted to this forum.

quote: Almost none of the people who say things like that have actually lived in the U.S

That seems to be very logical. If people are bashing America than its very logical to assume that they live in other countries.

	28-08-2001 20:38									#46
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quote: Originally posted by RedWhiteArcher "America-bashing" isn't restricted to this forum.

I didn't say it was.

quote: Originally posted by RedWhiteArcher That seems to be very logical. If people are bashing America than its very logical to assume that they live in other countries.

That is not really that logical. I didn't assume that they from outside the U.S., the majority of them actually are. Assumptions like that make you look as bad as the bashers (or worse).

	29-08-2001 03:43									#47
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quote: The only thing I don't understand is why Firaxis didn't stop this rumor before.

The reason for that is because "they were working on two projects". Note that everything inside quation marks means Firaxis was screwing around playing Civ3.

quote: ; no one cares when it spies go around overthrowing governments; Americans seem perfectly happy having their troops stationed all over the world, outside their "cities;" and when other countries try to seek peace, the American gov't ignores them.

When did our spies go around overthrowing any gov.? You are very incorrect in that Americans are happy with our troops stationed all over the world. Americans are just as unhappy about not seeing their families as any other human would be. What a stupid statement that what was by you. I usually don't like to make "bad" remarks like that but since you know nothing about us Americans you are not inclined to make poorly informed statements like that. Your last statement is also inaccurate. US are not influencing any nations to stay at war. In fact the US is trying to create peace between many nations. Please don't post your biased and uninformative comments anymore. Although, I would like to read your unbiased and informative comments.

quote: If people are bashing America than its very logical to assume that they live in other countries.

No, it's not. Many Americans are very hateful towards the US. For some reason or another but it's true. I believe more Americans need to follow the famous statement made by JFK, just go look at my signature.

	29-08-2001 04:07									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th We all know that's not true, Tingkai.

Really? Are you saying the U.S. is not rich? Are you saying that when the U.S. takes unilateral action, other countries boycott it?

What happened when the U.S. invaded Panama, Grenada, Laos and Cambodia. Not much. Did any of these invasions result in the collapse of a U.S. government? No.

The U.S. has had military bases all over the world for the past 50 years and most Americans are proud of this. We are the world's police.

As for the bit about the spies, just look at what the CIA has done. Iran, the Philippines, Nicaraugua, Vietnam, and so on.

I'm not saying that the U.S. government is evil. I just think its funny that the U.S. fits the attributes of a civ fundamental government. It's called irony.

	29-08-2001 05:52									#49
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The U.S. doesn't fit the attributes. Most Americans are not happy about having our troops spread out and the CIA is no different from any other nation's intelligence section.

I'm done arguing about this. Go find something better to do with your time.

	29-08-2001 15:15									#50
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th The U.S. doesn't fit the attributes. Most Americans are not happy about having our troops spread out and the CIA is no different from any other nation's intelligence section. I'm done arguing about this. Go find something better to do with your time.

You've been arguing? I thought you were just pouting and saying "Is not" followed by "I'm not going to play anymore."

	29-08-2001 15:23									#51
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I'd say if Firaxis was going for realism, democracy in Civ III would be like fundamentalism in CIV II

	29-08-2001 19:49									#52
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You're acting like you're 6 years old, Tingkai, but I'll bite anyway. Most of your statements are just plain not accurate. There's nothing more I can say. You're making stuff up.

Until you say something productive or start backing up your claims with real evidence, I'm done with you.

Last edited by Sabre2th on 30-08-2001 at 01:49

	30-08-2001 01:18									#53
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quote: Well, after stating it millions of times that nationalsim isn't a government choice in Civ3 I was finally proved right by a Firixian.

Yeah, that´s good news. Among other things, it means I can mobilize for war as a democracy ...

What i´d really like to see soon at civ3.com is a developer update about "Governments in Civ 3".

	30-08-2001 03:06									#54
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins When did our spies go around overthrowing any gov.?

I seem to remember a guy named Pinochet who killed 3.000+ in Chile and who was installed by the CIA who helped him liquidate his (democratically elected) predecessor. This was not a single unfortunate instance; it was pretty much Kissinger as usual, and not only Kissinger.

	30-08-2001 08:59									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th 29-08-2001 09:52 I'm done arguing about this.

----

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th 29-08-2001 23:49 I'm done with you.

---
Sabre2th: Promises, promises.

Tell you what, go ahead and spout off some more insults, but don't expect a response. This is my last post to this thread. I'm not really interested in listening to your temper tantrums.

But do us a favour. If you are going to continue insulting people, please try to be creative. If the best you can do is "you're acting like a six-year-old" then you might as well say nothing at all. Better yet, try to grasp the concept of THE APOLYTON FORUM FAQ v2.2 Item XI. It's very simple:

What can't I post?
Insults, flames, hatred comments, spamming, advertisements are an abuse of your priviledge to post and can result to a penalty."

If you have any problems understanding that, let us know. I'm sure we can explain it to you.

	30-08-2001 10:15									#56
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Don't take my posts out of context and don't quote the FAQ to me. It is not productive in any way and still doesn't prove your point about FUNDAMENTALISM, which is the whole reason for this thread.

	30-08-2001 13:39									#57
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From my point of view the U.S. defintely show a fundamentalistic influence. If you look in some states like Colorado where the "Theory of Evolution" (is this correct? I only know the german term) by Darwin was banned from the local schoolbooks you'll see what I mean.

	30-08-2001 18:36									#58
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I agree that that particular incident is a little strange, but it is only one example. There are far more arguments the other way. This whole Darwin thing isn't just for the heck of it. The government has no affiliation. The theory of evolution isn't officially taught because religion isn't officially taught. This is meant to avoid teaching religious children something other than their beliefs. The whole evolution/religion thing is a sensitive issue. It is done simply to avoid offending people.

	30-08-2001 20:35									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th I agree that that particular incident is a little strange, but it is only one example.

There are plenty more examples, the oppression of homosexuality being one of the major issues. While I wouldn't call the USA a Theocracy, certain fundamentalist tendencies are obvious.

quote: This whole Darwin thing isn't just for the heck of it. The government has no affiliation. The theory of evolution isn't officially taught because religion isn't officially taught.

This is a very weird statement IMHO. First, because there is no conflict between the evolution theory and the main religions in the USA. Second, children should be taught about all kinds of religion as well as science, so that they can make their own educated choice of what they want to believe. I don't see how this could offend anyone but a fundamentalist (religeous, scientific or otherwise) - which should be ignored by a democratic government!

	30-08-2001 22:19									#60
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Sorry. Double Post.