11-09-2001 10:14									#181
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by isaac brock they are digging a deeper and deeper trench every day between them and MPers because they fear what may happen if they announce the truth.

I like SP Civ. I like MP too. I never realized before today that there were two camps on this issue. It is all good to me.

However, my point is that at this date an MP feature is the standard for TBS. If they can't ship this feature they are a lame software shop, and I won't buy the product as a matter of principal. If they must charge $100 to include this feature then so be it, at minimum all the cards are on the table, otherwise I'm content to let them go the way of the Dinosaur.

Ken

	11-09-2001 10:18									#182
	Inflate your Upload Space

Don't be ridiculous. Of course there are two camps. You must pick one or the other. Multiplayer people, or normal people.

Damn, I think I need some sleep. Shame on this forum. I have school tomorrow!

	11-09-2001 10:23									#183
	Anybody else find the threadstarter's behavior a little wierd? Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I appreciate the information and the chance to chat about this. (I had predicited no MP earlier).

But I don't like the way you apporached Firaxis for free games and then printed an e-mail from them. The whole thing looks a bit snarky to me. Like you were more interested in Civ3 than in the Turing test. Espeically the way you came over here all hot and bothered...starting a thread of your own with swearing and multiple exclamation points.

It's not a huge deal...but something about your behavior strikes me as a little sneaky.

	11-09-2001 10:33									#184
	Increase Your PM Length

I thought the same thing at first, but:

1) It would take some brass balls to do such a thing. And a lawsuit could actually stick...though Firaxis hasn't done any damage control, so they are weakening their case if this is so.

2) I have never seen anything from Mister Pleasant (oh, crap, his initial are MP!) to suggest he would do such a thing. He is a known poster who probably did get such an e-mail and was shocked by it.

	11-09-2001 10:41									#185
	Re: Anybody else find the threadstarter's behavior a little wierd? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I went to civ3.com after reading the first post and didn't see anything on multiplayer. However, I could have been blinded by rage.

	11-09-2001 10:50									#186
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yin26 I thought the same thing at first, but: 1) It would take some brass balls to do such a thing. And a lawsuit could actually stick...though Firaxis hasn't done any damage control, so they are weakening their case if this is so. 2) I have never seen anything from Mister Pleasant (oh, crap, his initial are MP!) to suggest he would do such a thing. He is a known poster who probably did get such an e-mail and was shocked by it.

You misunderstand me. I'm not saying that MP lied about the e-mail. I trust that all happened as he said.

I just think his conversations with Firaxis have been a little wormy. He used his status as a professor (or TA!) to extract some information from Firaxis. Then he published an e-mail without permission.* It's weak to ask for a donation (free games from a company) and then go bad mouth them regarding the company's product.


It's not a huge deal...but something about it makes him look bad. I wouldn't give him a donation or help with a project after seeing this...even if "I HAD MP in my game".


*Note that this is "legal" although rude--certainly behavior that will mean at a miniumum that he will be ignored by this e-mail partner in the future and perhaps by others who see this.

	11-09-2001 11:13									#187
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

DP

	11-09-2001 11:14									#188
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

DP

	11-09-2001 11:20									#189
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ah, I see what you mean. Well, I'd rather not get down on him just yet. I can't say for sure I would have been any more careful, and it seems he regrets the way he handled this.

Shall we let bygones be bygones and see how Firaxis, who really should have dealt with this publically anyway, handles it?

	11-09-2001 11:55									#190
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Ah, I see what you mean. Well, I'd rather not get down on him just yet. I can't say for sure I would have been any more careful, and it seems he regrets the way he handled this. Shall we let bygones be bygones and see how Firaxis, who really should have dealt with this publically anyway, handles it?

Fair enough...it's not a big hairy point...just something in the bakc of my head that was buggin me until I figured out what was puzzling me.

	11-09-2001 13:41									#191
	There better be MP in Civ3... Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

... since we made a deal at our morningcoffetable today to have our own internal championship with Civ3. So they better have MP support, com on we are now already five persons to play... (It's gonna be muchos fun, until our boss discovers our real research project )

	11-09-2001 17:28									#192
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

The omission would be a serious flaw. Not particularly because I want to play MP from Day One -as it *will* eventually get here- but because this lack will result in a devastating press reception. The game is sure to gather low ratings all around and casual gamers/customers will shy away from an already 'oldfashionedly turn-based' game. I can see the list of 'selling points' now:

1) turn based play!

2) no multiplayer!

3) no true 3D!

4) bugs galore! (~derived from the supposed rush of the developers and the lack of a public beta)

Now don't understand me wrong. *I* will still buy the game and probably enjoy it too. But John Doe will not. And small sales = end of Civ legacy and maybe even the demise of Firaxis.

	11-09-2001 19:41									#193
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I can understand all of this happening to another game company and game.

What puzzles me is this is Sid Meier and Firaxis and the game is Civ3. Civ3 has a fine legacy and a huge, loyal following. I have played all of Sid's games and have enjoyed them tremendously.

It seems that this is what may have happened:

Firaxis had planned originally to ship Civ3 in Spring 2002. That's plenty of time to include all the "extras".

But Infogrames comes along and says "Whoa!, get that game out in Oct, 2001 instead. We need the income to improve our bottom line. The investors have been howling at us since our stock dropped and we have to show an increase in income by the end of the 4th quarter. Besides it's only a game".

So, what happens? Firaxis has to scramble to cut features in order to get the game ready for Oct. They know their reputation is on the line. So they have to leave a bunch of stuff out, have in-house testing, and everybody has to work lots of over-time.

So the excuses start coming: "800x600 resolution? Who uses that resolution any more. A demo? Why waste your time playing a demo? Public beta testing? Ahhh, we can handle that in house, no problem. We have three employees who do not require any sleep. Alexander doesn't look like Alexander? You're seeing things. . ."

But the employees at Firaxis know the game is not ready. So certain emplyees start casually joking about the game; it's no longer treated seriously. The history write-ups become comical,
excuses are made for things that don't appear to be "historical", etc.

They also know MP won't be ready by the Oct release. But they have been told not to say anything (Kelly's email was probably an accidental slip), because that would hurt pre-order sales and over the counter sales in November. No. . . don't say anything. Let them buy the game. . . hey, they'll learn to love it anyway.

What about the bugs they didn't catch before release? Ahh, tell them you'll put out patches in January. By that time Infogrames bottomline will have improved, the investors will be happy, its a new year, and the gamers will have the patience to wait for the patches and download them at a later date.

After all, the fans are loyal and they will understand. . .

Last edited by Leonidas on 11-09-2001 at 19:54

	13-09-2001 00:20									#194
	Dismayed, but not really surprised Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I was very disappointed to read this snippet about the possibility of the game being released without full multiplayer support. I realize nothing has officially been said by Firaxis...yet, you cannot blame computer gamers for becoming immediately frustrated at even the possibility of being suckered with yet another unfinished game being released to market. I realize that the Civ dynasty has a strong following of players who are content with just a single-play aspect, but this is the year 2001, and yes, MP is a feature that strategy gamers have a right to expect, and I feel it is completely reasonable to expect said features right out of the box.

What I find unacceptable is that a release date has been announced for this game; people are already spending money on pre-orders. Yet we are only now hearing that MP support isn't available out-of-the-box by way of a Firaxis e-mail to a 3rd party. I hope this is a big miscommunication. It will be in very poor taste if Firaxis waits until the last minute to announce no multiplayer out-of-box. Firaxis, please post an immediate update on the Civ3 website about what's going on with multiplayer. The fans deserve it.

I have loved the game since Civ 1, but I will not spend money on a product that I feel is unfinished. Furthermore, I will not pay extra for a "multiplayer add-on". It is not a threat; it is just my stance as a consumer in this publishing era of "close enough is good enough". Firaxis, please take the necessary steps to ensure that my confidence with Sid Meier games is not eroded. Please do not become Just Another Typical Game Company

--Mike H.

Last edited by Whitestar718 on 13-09-2001 at 00:57

	13-09-2001 00:42									#195
	Time for a new poll... Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Is it time for a new poll?

Q. Will the developer update of the week be

1. An update on MP - Yes it is in the game
2. An update on MP - No it is NOT in the game
3. An update on MP - it might be in the game sometime
4. An update on something else entirely different.


I go for 4!

	13-09-2001 01:08									#196
	Remove this text

I go for 5: There will be no developer update this week. They will just update Civ of the Week

	13-09-2001 03:26									#197
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

It's been three days since this "rumour" about no MP. Yet Firaxis has said nothing.

Their silence is deafening - no denial would presumably mean no MP this fall. . .

	13-09-2001 03:43									#198
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I think they don't react because they don't care about all those rumors.

conversation at Firaxis:

employee 1: Geeeez, those idiots at apolyton right now claim that we won't put MP in civ3 immediately ! Where do they get it from ???

employee 2: ignore them and let them chill out.

in other words, silence doesn't automaticly mean confirmed.
It just means that it was a rumor, is a rumor and will stay a rumor for a little longer.

	13-09-2001 04:00									#199
	Put an end to popups!

But when asked where they got that from they have to answer their own P.R. person so there is some truth in the rumors.

So if it wan't truth then they should have said something by now.

	13-09-2001 19:56									#201
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

4th day and still no word. . .

	13-09-2001 20:15									#202
	Inflate your Upload Space

i wrote them a nice email and didnt even get a response

	13-09-2001 22:42									#203
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin i wrote them a nice email and didnt even get a response

Hard to believe it was 'nice' email coming from you Rasputin .

	13-09-2001 22:45									#204
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I sent Mike a very polite PM and no answer. It appears that Firaxis is ignoring it. I haven't decided yet if that's good or bad.

	14-09-2001 04:39									#205
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th I sent Mike a very polite PM and no answer. It appears that Firaxis is ignoring it. I haven't decided yet if that's good or bad.

Its bad, very deffinatly bad.

We can all be certain that Firaxis knows we are all paniking here about the rumor. They know that panic among the players will only hurt them. If our rumor was untrue they'd quickly come here and set us straight to prevent our panic from doing harm to their reputation. They've done this in the past with other rumors.

It has been many days since this broke, and they have said nothing. No reponse at all. They are allowing the speculation, panic and rumor to persist, obviously the know the truth is even worse.

I can see no logic in ignoring us if we are wrong. I can only imagine we are being avoided because we are right and they are afraid to admit it.

	14-09-2001 04:41									#206
	Full PM-box? Change here!

too true.

we should start a complete false rumor and see hwo quickly they react.

	14-09-2001 04:47									#207
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP I can see no logic in ignoring us if we are wrong. I can only imagine we are being avoided because we are right and they are afraid to admit it.

well, the country is in a state of war after certain events but who cares about these insignificant things, right?

i'm guess they'll have something on tomorrow's update, but then again that's just a guess

	14-09-2001 05:23									#208
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I agree that they will probably talk about it next update.

Also, if someone trivializes this thread by comparing it in importance to the events of Tuesday, more power to them. Unfortunately, though, you are not a lone fanatic such as myself, you are the administrator. When YOU say it doesn't really matter because it isn't as important as the world trade center, you might as well close up all the threads. If we are losing an argument, we could all say "it isn't important anyway" but that would defeat the purpose of argument. This attack not only kills thousands and horrifies millions, it is stopping the American (and canadian) ways of life. We should continue living life like before, because otherwise terror has won

Also this kind of reminds me of the pointless civ 3 arguments we've had:

quote: By the way this is from the onion, undoubtedly america's finest news source. Sci-Fi Fans Argue The Better Of Two As-Yet-Unreleased Films TULSA, OK— Science-fiction fans Pete Carver and Matthew Wynne disagreed sharply Monday on the relative merits of Harry Potter And The Sorcerer's Stone and The Fellowship Of The Ring, neither of which hits theaters for months. "The storyboards for the Quidditch tournament I saw on this one web site look terrible," said the pro-Tolkien Carver. "There's no way that scene can be better than I've heard the Balrog one is." Wynne countered that the set design for the Great Hall of Hogwarts set "will completely blow away" that of the Mines of Moria.

	14-09-2001 05:35									#209
	Got spare money?

That in no way is an unbeleiveable joke. We had the exact same behavior with SMAC and CTP.

	14-09-2001 05:44									#210
	Tired of ads?

I don't think its unbelievable, but should the administrator of a civ site be saying theres no reason to talk about civ after stopping wtc threads? It's curious that he should be keeping the community from continuing with their lives