08-09-2001 00:37									#1
	Peaceful Golden Age has been implemented! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Check out the new Development Diary. Here is the Quote:

"If the attributes of the Wonders you've completed match your Civ's strengths, you will trigger a Golden Age. For example, the Chinese are "Militaristic" and "Industrious". If they build The Art of War and Hoover Dam, this satisfies both strengths and a Golden Age would begin. A far better tact for the Chinese would be to build the Great Wall, which satisfies both strengths at once and would immediately trigger a Chinese Golden Age upon completion."

This is way cool. They listened to our suggestions about adding a peaceful Golden Age!

	08-09-2001 00:42									#2
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat This is way cool. They listened to our suggestions about adding a peaceful Golden Age!

Great! Check it out at http://www.civ3.com/devupdate.cfm

	08-09-2001 00:47									#3
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so every civ will get 2 golden ages?

	08-09-2001 00:48									#4
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So, as I understand it, there are 2 ways to trigger a GA. If you are militaristic, you can trigger a GA when your Special Unit wins a fight. If you are peaceful, you can now trigger a GA by building certain Wonders. This makes so much sense, because it no longer forces the peaceful play to start a war just for a GA. And it rewards a good builder!

	08-09-2001 00:49									#5
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quote: Originally posted by jerkwaterbox so every civ will get 2 golden ages?

No, it is still 1 as I understand it. It is "either or". A civ can only have 1 GA. But this gives builders another way other than war!

	08-09-2001 00:51									#6
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An interesting point hidden in the update is:

"Small Wonders are a new type of Wonder that can be built by every civ, but only once.
.....
Also, Small Wonders in a city are destroyed when that city is captured, whereas Great Wonders can be captured. "

You could interpret that as you only get one chance to build a minor wonder. Lose it, and its gone forever!
Or you might be able to build a new one if Firaxis are feeling nice!


Rob

From civ of the week:

"Ironically, they were called Immortals because they would often perish quickly in combat, only to be immediately replaced by fresh troops, giving the illusion that their forces never dropped in strength. Apparently, "Expendables" didn't have quite the same ring to it. "

	08-09-2001 00:52									#7
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What? CHinese are military and industrial??
They must did some big changes? Or just a typo?
In the older list. Chinese was Scientifical and Industrial.. ((

	08-09-2001 00:59									#8
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Great about the GAs

	08-09-2001 01:01									#9
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quote: Originally posted by jerkwaterbox so every civ will get 2 golden ages?

No, each Civ only gets one Golden Age opportunity.

But by choosing wonders according to civ-abilities, and when to build them, you are given the freedom to decide when to trigger your golden age.

Above peaceful golden age trigger is in fact so good, that I hope they scrap the specific units trigger. Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

	08-09-2001 01:02									#10
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Comfirmed.. They are changing Civ attributes.
A result appear from our widely request of a peaceful
trigger of Golden age.

	08-09-2001 01:03									#11
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I looked at the table of civ-abilities - refresh my memory - the chinese are listed as mil/ind and the germans as mil/sci. Were they always like that?

	08-09-2001 01:08									#12
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I also like how great leaders can hurry the wonders. kind of like alien artifacts...

	08-09-2001 01:09									#13
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(posted in a new thread)

Last edited by Steve Clark on 08-09-2001 at 02:08

	08-09-2001 01:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Above peaceful golden age trigger is in fact so good, that I hope they scrap the specific units trigger. Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

I agree. I may be in a war where I may HAVE to use my UU like legion or hoplite in order to prevail, why should my GA start at that random time? Arbitrary

(this way we would be forced to hold back our best units in a war )

	08-09-2001 01:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by isaac brock I also like how great leaders can hurry the wonders. kind of like alien artifacts...

I got the impression it was more that you could rush-buy the wonders if you had a leader present, rather than sacrificing the leader for the wonder ala alien artifact/caravan.

Sort of like the leader directs the hired labour in the construction, and without the leader it would just be a huge mess and they wouldn't be able to organise the speedy construction.

I think it would be much more realistic done the way I interpreted it.

	08-09-2001 01:30									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Above peaceful golden age trigger is in fact so good, that I hope they scrap the specific units trigger. Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

You make really valid points. But what about the warmonger that wants to be able to have a GA, and can't build the required Wonder? Should the warmonger not be allowed to trigger a GA just because he does not have a certain wonder? Isn't that just as unfair as not having a peaceful trigger for a GA?

There has to be a trigger for both types of players so that both can have a GA without compromising their strategies! Hopefully we have that now!

	08-09-2001 01:36									#17
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat You make really valid points. But what about the warmonger that wants to be able to have a GA, and can't build the required Wonder? Should the warmonger not be allowed to trigger a GA just because he does not have a certain wonder? Isn't that just as unfair as not having a peaceful trigger for a GA?

Both great wonders and small wonders triggers Golden Age, I believe. And every Civ can build small wonders - they are not exclusive. Also, achieving Golden Age shouldnt be a God-given right. The player must work for it.

	08-09-2001 01:41									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf Both great wonders and small wonders triggers Golden Age, I believe. And every Civ can build small wonders - they are not exclusive. Also, achieving Golden Age shouldnt be a God-given right. The player must work for it.

Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

	08-09-2001 01:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Rhysie Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

Just to clarify yes, they are only great wonders that do this. here is the text from civ3.com:

quote: Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths

	08-09-2001 01:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Rhysie I got the impression it was more that you could rush-buy the wonders if you had a leader present, rather than sacrificing the leader for the wonder ala alien artifact/caravan.

I think you're wrong, Rhysie. Allowing GL's to rush-build wonders AND allowing them to form armies makes them a bit too powerful. By choosing how you want them to be used, you can simulate a great military leader (armies) or a great industrial leader (wonders). Too bad (to the best of our knowledge) they didn't implement scientific leaders, or even entertainment leaders (then you could REALLY have Elvis in your civ )

I can't back this up with Firaxis quotes (at least I'm too lazy to perform the research), but I feel my assumptions are probably correct.

	08-09-2001 02:01									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Rhysie Actually the update specifically talks about Great Wonders in relation to golden ages, implying that _only_ great wonders trigger a golden age.

So both Art of War, Hoover dam and Great Wall are great wonders? Well, Great Wall perhaps, but certainly not "Art of war". No Rhysie, I think its more likely that small wonders can trigger golden ages, also.

	08-09-2001 02:04									#22
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Quote from developer update:

"Great Wonders are also now associated with one or more of the Civilization strengths"

Which rather strongly implies that only great wonders can trigger GA's.

	08-09-2001 02:06									#23
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera I think you're wrong, Rhysie. Allowing GL's to rush-build wonders AND allowing them to form armies makes them a bit too powerful. By choosing how you want them to be used, you can simulate a great military leader (armies) or a great industrial leader (wonders). Too bad (to the best of our knowledge) they didn't implement scientific leaders, or even entertainment leaders (then you could REALLY have Elvis in your civ )

Who says that the same GL can do both? Probably the industrial great leaders can't do squat with armies, and the military great leaders don't allow you to rush a wonder.

If there really are two (or more) types of GLs, I wonder what event will trigger the arrival of an industrial great leader. Also, do you think that this industrial great leader needs to be in the city that the wonder is being built? It would certainly make a tempting target for enemies if you needed to shuttle him from an outer province to your capital before you could use it...

	08-09-2001 02:07									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf So both Art of War, Hoover dam and Great Wall are great wonders? Well, Great Wall perhaps, but certainly not "Art of war". No Rhysie, I think its more likely that small wonders can trigger golden ages, also.

Sorry, but all three of these are mentioned specifically as great wonders in the latest update. If you don't believe me, believe firaxis.

With regards to leaders allowing rush building being too powerful, I think you misunderstood me - You'd still have to pay for the rush build as in civ2... So it wouldn't be that powerful. It would also give a non-militaristic use for leaders.

	08-09-2001 02:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Rhysie I got the impression it was more that you could rush-buy the wonders if you had a leader present, rather than sacrificing the leader for the wonder ala alien artifact/caravan.

OTOH, sacrificing a leader (and thus the option to build an army) to complete a hard-fought Great Wonder - now that would be a tough choice.

	08-09-2001 02:13									#26
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Does anybody have any idea of what might trigger a Industrial Great Leader.

	08-09-2001 02:13									#27
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quote: Originally posted by RobC Who says that the same GL can do both? Probably the industrial great leaders can't do squat with armies, and the military great leaders don't allow you to rush a wonder. If there really are two (or more) types of GLs, I wonder what event will trigger the arrival of an industrial great leader. Also, do you think that this industrial great leader needs to be in the city that the wonder is being built? It would certainly make a tempting target for enemies if you needed to shuttle him from an outer province to your capital before you could use it...

Err...no, I never said there were multiple types of Great Leader. I said you could SIMULATE different types by using them for different things.

Rhysie hopes that a GL could rush-build a Wonder and then still be used to create an army. My argument is that it makes GLs too versatile. By having to decide how to use the GL (and I believe you can only use the GL once for one purpose - either making an army or a wonder) you get greater depth of gameplay than if the GL could do everything.

Hope this clears everything up.

	08-09-2001 02:15									#28
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Sun Tzu's Art of War seems like an "off the beaten path" type of wonder, but I certainly have no problem with it, it has certainly had a huge impact on the development of the world.

	08-09-2001 02:32									#29
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quote: Originally posted by ajbera Err...no, I never said there were multiple types of Great Leader. I said you could SIMULATE different types by using them for different things. Rhysie hopes that a GL could rush-build a Wonder and then still be used to create an army. My argument is that it makes GLs too versatile. By having to decide how to use the GL (and I believe you can only use the GL once for one purpose - either making an army or a wonder) you get greater depth of gameplay than if the GL could do everything. Hope this clears everything up.

Actually, I wasn't saying you thought there were multiple types of great leaders. I was saying that I think there may be multiple types of great leaders. If you recall, Firaxis once mentioned the possibility of having scientific, entertainment, etc. great leaders as well as militaristic ones. So I think it's a good possibility that there are just two (or more) different types of great leaders. If true, this should satisfy your concern that a single GL that can do both is too powerful.

Now this still leaves open the question of whether the "industrial great leader" is used up like the SMAC alien artifact or not, but I would guess it's not. The way I read 'rush-build' is the old Civ2 style of just buying the rest of the production needed to build a wonder. I've always thought this makes it a little too easy for the human player (who gets to know in advance when an opponent is about to complete a wonder), so requiring a industrial GL can help to limit this 'abuse'. Also, I wouldn't describe using a SMAC alien artifact as a 'rush-build', more of a 'production bonus' (in the game, it asks if you want to use them to 'help complete' your wonder)

	08-09-2001 02:41									#30
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quote: Ralf: Its not needed. What do you guys think? I want to be able to fight with those specific units, without risking having a forced upon Golden Age, then I perhaps not ready for it.

Pherhaps a golden age doesn't start because the 'governament' wants one. A golden age just starts..............

I know civ isn't meant to reflect reality, but in fact I kinda like the fact that you don't have complete influence on when your GA will happen. Some civs will have a forced early GA, other civs will have to wait.............. that makes the game very interestic.