09-10-2001 08:45									#151
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

forgot file.. it's 1040, got carried away

Attachment: xar_1040ad.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	09-10-2001 12:41									#152
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by geofelt The big question to me is : Which style is more fun?

I am definitely not enjoying my current game! I'm a crappy warmongerer and enjoy games where I can develop a peaceful and thriving civ without having a zillion cities and units (bla bla bla).

Here's my log for the third session. I'm getting sloppy (sloppier? ) as I am starting to lose interest in the game. Don't use my triremes/caravels efficiently (I have too many!), stack more units than I need to in places where I'll probably only need half of of them (especially in Babylonian territory, where I'll only need three after my Super Ironclads have dealt with the musks! ) etc etc. Why don't I send a couple of vet horsemen to finish off the Russians?

Third session:

620 AD-800 AD

640 Barbarian attack reveals where the Russians are
660 Killdeer (L)
680 Republic (S) from Babylonians (yesss!), embassy with the Babylonians, they only have three cities , granary destroyed in Nineveh
700 Choice between Democracy and Navigation (Chivalry also available), I chose Democracy, Stony Lake (C), Sioux destroyed
720 Democracy (D), Turin (F)
740 Leptis Parva builds SoL, I find the Americans (they have GW), Genoa (F), revolution
760 Commie, 150 gold (barb king), war with the Americans
800 Crete (F)

800 AD-920 AD

820 Hladir (C), Viborg (C)
840 Skara (C), Gunpowder (C), Verona (F)
860 The Udal (C), I give lots of techs to the Aztecs, we exchange maps. Since they don’t have Gunpowder (they asked me for it) or GW + all cities are on grass I steer my triremes towards them instead
900 Navigation (D)
920 Leptis Parva builds Magellan’s, Teotihuacan (C), Texcoco (C), Calixtlahuca (C), attack on Tenochtitlan fails, didn’t see it had walls… The attacks on all four cities cost me 13 units

920 AD-1060 AD

940 Xochicalco (C), city walls of Kaupang (+ temple, marketplace and catapult production) destroyed. I attack, but fortified musk defends, ****! Tlatelolco (C)
980 Tlaxcala (C)
1000 Tenochtitlan (C), Colossus (C)…
1040 Physics (D), Steam Engine next. I set a lot of cities to settler production and then I maxed science (5 turns/discovery). I’ll switch from settlers to ironclads when I get Steam Engine
1060 Jorvik (C) by barbs, Jorvik (B)

I am now in the middle of the turn 1100 AD

Status: 51 cities, 7 wonders (HG, LH, STWA, LW, SoL, Magellan’s, Colossus (C)), 636 gold, reseraching Steam Engine (two turns left)

Casualties: 1 settler (don't remember that one), 1 warrior, 2 musketeers, 70 horsemen, four elephants, 1 crusader (huh? Never built one, nor had a unit upgraded to one???)

Conquered and destroyed cities: 28

Carolus

	09-10-2001 12:46									#153
	Full PM-box? Change here!

The censored word was s-h-i-t and nothing else.

Let's see if the uploading thing works now.

Carolus

Attachment: to20ad.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	09-10-2001 12:52									#154
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Aha!

And the next?

Carolus

Attachment: to220ad.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	09-10-2001 12:53									#155
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Ah! Time for another upload orgie!

Carolus

Attachment: to360ad.zip
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	09-10-2001 12:54									#156
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One more?

Carolus

Attachment: to500ad.zip
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	09-10-2001 12:55									#157
	Suffering from ads?

That's all for now, folks!

Carolus

Attachment: to620ad.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	09-10-2001 13:02									#158
	Increase Your PM Length

A clarification.

When I talk about "then I maxed science" in the log above (1040 AD), I meant maxing trade in a lot of cities. The science rate is always set as high as possible (except in special cases, see previous logs).

Carolus

	09-10-2001 15:14									#159
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I have reached 1000AD in my 2nd go with no re-homing.I'm in the ballpark

#1-1000ad
11 cities
7.5 million
8 wonders
51 techs

#2-1000ad
20 cities
9.7 million
8 wonders
46 techs

So,I am either 12 turns,6 turns or somewhere in between behind.But I will be able to build my ship in 1 turn this time.And if I can time Fusion correctly......I've got a shot anyway.

I lost some turns when I increased and moved my whole ship chain from Egypt to far away Babylon.But its starting to pay.I'm slowly building up cities in the "background".Soon I will gift all techs and hope to 1 turn it from there.In the next 4-8 turns I think.

Attachment: rr2-1000ad.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

Last edited by Smash on 09-10-2001 at 22:53

	09-10-2001 20:49									#160
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

you know, that's one concept I never got around to using (and I really should).. the ship chaining thing... I'd imagine it'd help my foreign trade tremendously.

I'll try that at my second go around.

	10-10-2001 03:40									#161
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Congratulatio lafayette for your early arrival. Your space ship did not crash I hope!

	10-10-2001 04:12									#162
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by arii Congratulatio lafayette for your early arrival. Your space ship did not crash I hope!

Thank you.
It would be more precise to talk about 'early lauching' since I didn't play the years after 1570.
My friend carolus had just posted that he was willing to have a try at conquest and I suddenly felt that I had to switch to conquest at once .
(in fact I have had some new ideas about early landing in the meantime, so I probably have one more try at AC after that).

	10-10-2001 05:34									#163
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I finished #2 by launching a 21-4-4-1-1-1 +Fusion in 1570ad arriving in 1583ad.
NO rehoming
Carthage was able to produce quite few freight on it's own.Panoramus was the same.They were both repeaters for awhile.So were the Bab cities.Freights were averaging 400 or so.700+ from Carthage and Panoramus.Demanded were just over 1000 each.

No war to speak of.Not even my colonies.Vikes and Russians tryed a little late but that was pretty much it.Not 1 barb came anywhere near my territory after 200ad or so.

Attachment: rr2end.sav.zip
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	10-10-2001 13:42									#164
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Fourth and final session.

1060 AD- 1220 AD

1140 Steam Engine (D), Tlacopan (C), Aztecs destroyed
1160 Buffalo (C)
1200 Boston (C) from barbs, Detroit (L), Nineveh (C), CO (C)
1220 Salamis (F) to build an ironclad with striking access to Kaupang, but the ironclad is not an option in the building list , Ur (C), Roskilde (C)

1220 AD- 1280 AD

1240 Metallurgy (D), Chicago (L), San Francisco (C), Washington (C), Philadelphia (C), St Loius (L), Birka (C), Tblisi (C). Trying to "out-shield" Kaupang by surrounding it with units, forget one forrest square

1260 Lisbon (F) to make a strait (too late perhaps?), New York (C), Americans destroyed. Lindholm (C), I investigate Kaupang with a diplo. It has 4 units supported, produces one shield = it handles my "shield starvation" attempt, but cannot build anything. 150 gold (barb king)
1280 Hamburg (F)

Log word document crashed here…

1320 AD- 1380 AD

1320 Chivalry (D), Kaupang (C) (cost me about 17 knights, 1 crusader and 2 or 3 musks). Uppsala (C), Marco Polo (C), Vikings have 3 cities left, I only see one. Babylon (C), Babylonians destroyed, GL (C)
1380 Prague (F), Salzburg (H)

1380 AD- 1520 AD

1400 Leadership (D), Trondheim (C), Pyramids and Oracle (C). I walk the wrong way with a dragoon, keeping the Russians alive… I put units to sleep all over the board, bored and just want to finish the game…
1420 Disband defenders on Viking main land to get dragoons…
1440 Bergen (F)
1460 Sverdlovsk (C), Russians destroyed
1480 Westness (C)
1500 Conscription (D), Tactics next choice
1520 Jarrow (C), Vikings destroyed, world conquest

Carolus

	10-10-2001 13:49									#165
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I will post my saves later, but the final one is here.

Carolus

Attachment: guillotine.zip
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	10-10-2001 14:09									#166
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

My second try is for AC as my friend La Fayette has been aiming at that (and with good results, out of bounds for me I'm afraid... ).

I'm going for 8 cities, no rehoming (but see my confession in the log about another dubious activity! ), MGE version.

Gentlemen, my log!

3950 Chariot (H)
3850 Horse (H), Carthage (F)
3750 Utica (F)
3700 Malaca (H)
3650 Alphabet (D), Archer (H)
3400 Archer disbanded in Malaca
3350 Code of Laws (D)
3000 Currency (D)

2900 Caralis (F)
2550 Panormus (F)
2500 Monarchy (D), revolution
2450 Proclaimed King, Leptis Parva (F)
2150 Trade (D)

1950 Cartenna (F)
1900 Rusicade (F)
1800 Pottery (D)
1500 Map Making (D)
1450 Carthage builds LH
1150 Writing (D)
1000 Carthage builds HG

900 Literacy (D), meet the Vikings, give them techs, trade maps
850 Copper caravan arrives in Trondheim, 120 gold (in demand), fills the science box

NB! I replayed the following turn, because I forgot to do an instant revolution

825 Republic (D), revolution, Consul. Silk to Aarhus, 64 gold (not in demand)

NB! The turn above was replayed, because I forgot to do an instant revolution

775 Carthage builds Colossus, luxuries to 30%
750 Philosophy (D) + Polytheism (D)
625 Carthage size 8, set luxuries to 20%
600 Seafaring (D)
525 Russians land in my territory, peace after giving them Philosophy
500 Monotheism (D)
475 Luxuries set to 30% (a mistake?)
450 Leptis Parva builds MC, luxuries set to 10%

Status: 8 cities (only the capitol is size 8), 4 wonders (LH, HG, Colossus and MC).

Carolus

	10-10-2001 14:58									#167
	Put an end to popups!

Thats a good start.I like the set up with Lighthouse for trading early.

Now to finish the science city asap.

We won't hang you for the govt. change thing.After forgetting to revolt in mp umpteen times its nice to have a break,

	10-10-2001 15:11									#168
	conquest Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Carolus explained his situation in 1060; in short: 51 cities!
I have 16
...but my mighty ironclads are sailing, and I expect to get VET SPIES next turn, so I consider I haven't lost yet.
Here is my short log (after 325BC, since I found it no use to replay the early game):
225BC: switch to Republic
175BC: Marco
200AD: Cope
440AD: Shake
700AD: Steam Engine
880AD: discover Communism ( too bad, 1 turn late)
940AD: switch to Com
1080AD (expected): Espionage

	10-10-2001 15:27									#169
	conquest Increase Your PM Length

Now I know where I stand: 1520 to beat (seems I'm going to need Magellan and LH in order to sail quickly).
carolus, I let you know where I am in 1500 (if I don't finish before ).

Attachment: ra_a1060.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	10-10-2001 15:32									#170
	big ship wins Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

congratulations smash
same launching date (1570), but your powerful ship lands much sooner

(La Fayette, admiring the big SS he didn't manage to build with his small civ)

	10-10-2001 18:20									#171
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by Smash Thats a good start.I like the set up with Lighthouse for trading early.

Thanks (although I think I have to credit the advanced tribe for the good start and the fact that I knew the map and sailed straight to the Vikings)!

However, the LH over HG was a deliberate choice. First, I figured building HG was premature at that time with so few cities, and, because a switch to Republic was not immediately to follow. Second, I went back to my conquest log and noticed that I built both HG and LH before the AI built its first wonder. So I was hoping to do the same here, should one of them have started on HG.

quote: Originally posted by Smash Now to finish the science city asap.

Yep, Carthage is working on a library and I'm heading for Astronomy. The problem is, without rehoming , when to sneak in a couple of caravans in the building list? Also, should I grow the other cities or let them hit the roof at size 8? Maybe I should check how you early landers did...

quote: Originally posted by Smash We won't hang you for the govt. change thing.After forgetting to revolt in mp umpteen times its nice to have a break,

Agreed!

Carolus

	10-10-2001 21:31									#172
	conquest Full PM-box? Change here!

1460: Carthaginian crusader takes Tlaxcala.
The world belongs to Rabid Rodent.
Super ironclads (with Magellan and LH ) + vet spies = deadly combo for the enemies of Carthago.

(La Fayette, now ready for a third try at AC)

	10-10-2001 21:34									#173
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Here is the savegame

Attachment: ra_a1460.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	11-10-2001 03:31									#174
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Smash Thats a good start.I like the set up with Lighthouse for trading early. Now to finish the science city asap. We won't hang you for the govt. change thing.After forgetting to revolt in mp umpteen times its nice to have a break,

I would do the following after discovering TRADE:

Set science to 30%, tax 70%.
Build food caravans like crazy (incremental buying).
Connect cities with roads.
Build MPE using caravans.
Contact 2-3 civs and trade techs to get ONLY map making, pottery, writing, and if possible, literature.
Build Lighthouse and a trieme.
Ship two settlers to another continent, build a city there and improve lands.
Ship 4 food caravans to the new city and build HG there.
Build Colossus in Capital.
Attempt to trade with another civ for literature if possible.
Research republic in full gear (Xinning!).
WLTKD to grow both the HG city and the Capital to size 8.
Two continental trade! You can avoid rehoming caravans if you send a caravan from another city to the HG city while putting all citizens in the capital as specialists.
Trade tech again, get whatever you want, preferably Masonry, Construction, Poly, Mono.
After getting Construction, build aqueducts to grow the cities to size 12.

	11-10-2001 13:10									#175
	Re: conquest Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette 1460: Carthaginian crusader takes Tlaxcala. The world belongs to Rabid Rodent.

Congrats!

I didn't think you would make it after reading your status report above (16 cities in ca 1060). What about the Viking (inner, mainland) cities, Crusaders?

To all the early landers (and everyone else!),

A couple of questions I have often wondered about in my AC games.

i) Do you stay in Republic to facilitate trading with ships (which causes unhappiness under Democracy)?

ii) How big do you grow the supporting cities, size 8?

iii) Do you build factories in a) the SSC and b) any of the other cities?

iv) Same as iii), but with hydro/manufacturing plants?

Clarifications of the questions (the reasons I ask):

i) It seems to me that there is a trade-off between staying in Republic and going into Democracy. Under rep the first trireme/caravel does not cause unhappiness, which they do in demo. So you have either to support all ships to the science city (with Shake's) or pick off workers to prevent unrest. Also, on the one hand it is more difficult to grow via WLTPD due to roaming ships, on the other it is easier (provided you port your ships). Sometimes I wait until I discover Industrialisation (especially if I have LW) to change to demo. Right or wrong?

ii) Is it worth building marketplaces and aqueducts in the other cities? Should they not build caravans and caravans only?

iii)-iv) I seldom do. I only rush buy caravan after caravan in all cities. When I build the space ship I first set production to a wonder in all cities, then I use a freight (or more) to add 50 shields (or more), then I switch to the desired space ship part. Is it better to have factories?

Carolus

	11-10-2001 21:40									#176
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

carolus
You ask many interesting questions. I'll do my best.

1) Conquest
There is only one capital away from the coast in this game, namely Trondheim. I took it with crusaders (also took Kaupang with crusaders previously, to clear the way). Almost all coastal cities were taken by ironclads (except the last one, Tlaxcala, since I had no ironclads close by, but I had a transport, which allowed me to rushbuild 2 crusaders; a vet spy of mine had told me that there was only one unit inside... and couldn't bribe since the Aztecs had just switched to Demo).
I chose not to start conquering at all before getting Steam Engine, just for the fun of it (mainly in order to show that the kind of civ I like best, with a big SSC and a few helper cities size 8 or smaller, can be efficient even for conquest).
IMHO earlier conquest might be obtained in THIS game with a small landing force of 6 vet crusaders onboard 3 triremes to start with (perhaps doable not to switch to Republic at all). This would be much closer the kind of game you played.

2) AC
i) Yes I usually stay in Republic until I get galions or transports (but it is possible to switch sooner if you take care not to have more than one ship/coastal city and your cities are happy enough).
ii) Yes I usually stop at size 8 for all helper cities (arii usually doesn't, neither does smash). But I often build MP or Libraries (or both) in some of those cities, in the late game.
iii) Here is my theory about factories:
Factories without Hoover are no good (costly, slow return on investment, pollution). Hoover + 7 factories cost 2000 shields.
This doubles your shield production. Therefore, if the number of shields needed to finish your game is 4000 (the smallest SS costs 3680) and your production is 100 shields/turn, either you don't buid HD and finish in 40 turns or you build HD + 7 factories (takes you slightly less than 20 turns) + 20 turns to build 4000 shields. Would be a rather nice idea to build HD and factories in that case.
But usually early landers trade a lot in the endgame and mostly rushbuild with the gold they earn from trade (at least I do). Then they don't use that many shields. You can refer to my calculations above to draw your own conclusions (no definite answer yes or no to this question IMO).
iv) IMO: hydro (or HD): rather yes (see above)
IMO: manufact: no (too costly, too late)

	13-10-2001 00:09									#177
	AC: third (and last) try Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I did the same as for conquest: didn't replay the early game and started from my save at 325BC. I am now at 1020AD, slightly ahead of my previous game... suspense!
Here is the short log:
225BC: switch to Republic
175BC: Marco
180AD: Cope
340AD: Shake
500AD: University
540AD: Leo
620AD: switch to Demo
700AD: Isaac

Attachment: ra_a1020.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	14-10-2001 00:50									#178
	AC: third (and last) try Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

1550: lady Rabid Rodent throws a huge bottle of champagne at the vessel; SS (15,2,2,1,1,1) launched towards AC; ETA 1578.


Here is the new tiny Hall of Fame:
AC (with caravan rehoming): smash (launched 1530, ETA 1543)
AC (without rehoming): La Fayette (launched 1550, ETA 1578)
Conquest (without r.): La Fayette (1460)

	14-10-2001 00:59									#179
	savegame Remove this text

Here it is.

Some kind of huge civil disorder might be noticed after thorough examination of the savegame. This is due to the fact that people in Utica and Panormus witnessed the launching of the SS and decided to start having REAL fun...

Attachment: ra_a1550.zip
This has been downloaded 1 time(s).

	14-10-2001 10:47									#180
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I finally finish my conquest game (no rehoming). I finally found the last city and bribed it in 800AD. I lost 2-3 turns finding that last city until I gave all my techs+ some gold to trade maps and located it. Conquest was done with elephants, crusaders and dips. Here is the saves.

Attachment: ariiconquest.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).