21-09-2001 15:08									#61
	Got spare money?

I have attempted to summarise the comparisons thus far in a web page here. I hope that it will be found helpful. If I have made any errors or ommissions please let me know ...

	21-09-2001 16:49									#62
	Increase the size of your Attachments

A most excellent comparison chart! If you wish to add another column, here are my mileposts through b300.
3900 carthage
3750 utica
3700 alphabet
3300 code of laws
2850 malaca
2800 pottery
2600 caralis
2300 monarchy
2200 panormus
1250 trade
1100 leptis parva
925 cartena , writing, complete hanging-gardens
750 literacy
625 rusicade
550 philosophy,map-making
475 complete GL
425 seafaring from GL
400 wheel from gl
350 iron working from GL
300 mathematics
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My pattern is similar to davev's, except that the cities are next to each other, but with minimal overlap. I try to get the first four cities started asap.
after this, I did not keep a log, but got caught up in the game and made sporatic saves.

	21-09-2001 17:54									#63
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

great chart! but one lil note, I'm on MGE, not 2.42








The monkeys wonder what the meaning of SG is but was too timid to ask until now.

	22-09-2001 03:00									#64
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well - there is a small admission we have to make - we got so enthralled with the game that we forgot to take turn by turn saves ... However, gentlemen, our log ...

975 - Mathematics
800 - Cartenna
775 - Map Making; Colossus (Carthage)
750 - Carthage's 4th special - isn't - grassland mined to forest (not silk!)
700 - Rusicade (3 special - maybe 4?) - techs every 6 turns
625 - Astronomy

Debate:
What do we research? Again!? choices are: Construction, Polytheism, Seafaring, The Wheel & Writing.
SG2 votes for Construction - assuming we get Marco's on the move; SG1 is sorely tempted by Seafaring & The Lighthouse on the move -- In the spirit of compromise - we decide to go for Construction & The Lighthouse!

600 - The Lighthouse (Carthage)
550 - Beads from Carthage to Caralis 40g
500 - Construction and the sad realization that we have forgotten to save each turn! Hides: Panormus - Carthage: 40g
450 - Gades
400 - Rusucurru
375 - Girba
350 - Writing
275 - Library (Carthage); Leptis Magna
250 - Carthago Nova
225 - Seriously tetchy Russian Legion lands on our patch - costs us Construction, Mathematics & Mysticism for peace; Seafaring; Hides: Rusicade-Carthage: 56g
200 - forced to buy Russian Legion for 136g
175 - Marco Polo's Embassy (Carthage) - maps from Vikings, Aztecs(Alliance) & Americans Bridge Building from Vikings & Iron Working from Aztecs
150 - Dye (U): Carthage-Tenochtitlan: 164g
50 - Coal: Leptis Parva-Carthage: 30g
25 - The Wheel - damn just on the turn that the Vikings discovered it!!!!

1AD - summary: 13 cities pop 600,000; GNP 31 M$; Prod 61 Mtonnes

Prognosis - the Sioux and the Russians are for the chop in the next session - after that - who knows?
The Rabid Rodents feel a conquest coming - where are the vet Crusaders and Super Ironclads?

and the saves that we made after realizing what wallies we had been ...

___________________________
Seriously red SGs - tired and making too many mistakes

Attachment: gits 1000-250bc.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	22-09-2001 03:02									#65
	Remove this text

and...
____________________
The SGs well past their bed-time!

Attachment: gits 250bc-1ad.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	22-09-2001 04:25									#66
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I gave it a try. Here is a few dates:
2250B monarchy, in monarchy
1500B republic
1250B philos/curency
1A 10cities sizes: 8 7 3*6 2*5 4 2*3 wonders HG collossus mikes
120A Democracy

	22-09-2001 04:42									#67
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

I'm afraid i haven't done a very good job of detailing my game.I don't think much will learned from me.Go ahead and save some space by erasing me.I only have saves every 500 years and not much detail.

Having said that...after 1 ad I finished off Shake's in 100AD.Luxuries were set to quell unrest but the rate was enough to keep Carthage celebrating.So,I disbanded a dip and rushed a sewer for 120ad.

The next goals were not so clear due to tech choices.I wanted Gravity but took the path towards Democracy first which was established in 300AD.That same year Leos was added in anticipation of Explosives and Magnetism.However,the state of defenses demanded an update via Gunpowder ASAP.A few visits by the Russians were only repulsed by diplomats....barely.In 500 I am building Sir Isaac and I feel behind schedule now.Things will really pickup after Magnetism...I hope

Attachment: rr500ad.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 8 time(s).

	24-09-2001 05:44									#68
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I just launch my space ship in 1756, estimated arrival 1771.
Other key date:
fusion power 1752
Isaac newton 660

Sorry for not posting too many details but I did not bother to take notes.
I have attach a few saves.

Attachment: ariirabit.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	24-09-2001 18:54									#69
	Get a bigger avatar today!

As expected,things took right off after Magnetism.Trade is the main focus of my effort at this time and its paying huge dividends.I've been a bad boy re-supporting some caravans/freights....shoot me..I'm not trying to set records here

Sir Isaac was built in 580ad.It seemed late but..what can ya do?
Magellans was seen as a great benefit for trade and was built in 720ad(iirc).It was off to the races then.Darwin's was built(bought) in 940ad.

The Russians continue to be an annoying factor.They show up with bad intentions every 200 years or so.Fortunately,their window of opportunity is gone now.Leo's has made pitiful warriors into cutting edge defenders.A few dragoons and dips with RR is all that is needed to keep the homeland secure.

Currently working to RR the right squares for trade route bonus.Mainly internal routes as new foreign routes will not replace those with Carthage..which is ok and normal.Carthage has 3 foreign routes right now.I may fatten up a city and improve the trade routes that way.Lot better than waiting around for the ai to add superhighways and what not.We'll see.It may be over by then.Looks like I am going for a SS.

Attachment: rr1000ad.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 7 time(s).

	24-09-2001 22:02									#70
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

4th Millenium

925: Carthage builds HG, Panormus builds settler.
875: Malaca builds Caravan
850: Caraven added to Caralis (Marco), Cartenna founded.
825: Writing, researching Literacy.
800: Malaca builds Caravan
775: Caravan added to Caralis
750: Utica builds Settler, Carthage builds Temple, Starts Colossus.
725: Aztecs builds Pyramid. Aztec project switched to Colossus. Malaca builds Caravan, Cartenna builds warrior.
650: Americans switch from Great Library to Colossus.. looks like a race.
625: Caralis builds Marco, Caravan added to Carthage.
575: Malaca builds Caravan
500: Caralis builds Caravan
450: Philosophy, Iron Working , republic wasn't available , now researching republic. Panormus builds Caravan, caravan added to Carthage. Traded Americans for Map making, Republic. Traded Aztecs for Polytheism, Masonry.
425: Leptis Parva builds Temple, Government changed to Republic.
400: Researching Monotheism, Cartenna builds Trireme.
375: Carthage builds Colossus.
350: Caralis - Carthage Silver 74gp
325: Monotheism, researching Construction. Caralis builds caravan, starting Mike's Chapel, 2 caravans added to Caralis. The Wheel from Sioux, paid Aztecs 50 gold, Construction, Seafaring from Aztecs.
300: Researching Medicine, Malaca builds caravan.
275: Unrest in Malaca. (oops!) Caravan added to Caralis. Temple bought in Cartenna. Luxury rate changed to celebrate.
250: Oop, moved my trireme a bit too far out by accident but ended up finding land because of it, lol Land ho!
225: Carthage builds Caravan.
125: Luxury rate set to 2.4.4, Rusicade Founded.
75: Panormus, Malaca builds caravans, Utica builds Settlers.
50: Cartenna builds Settlers, 2 caravans added to Caralis.
1AD: Carthage builds Library.

5 turns from finishing Mike's, then will probably restart celebration to get Carthage to 12 and the rest to 8 if possible.

Attachment: xar_1ad.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	24-09-2001 22:03									#71
	Remove this text

Excellent idea, SGs!!

Can I come over and play? Perhaps tonight I'll give it a shot. As a different tack at this, how would it do to have a set number of people (as in a a succession game) play to a certain point, say 1000 BC, and pause for all the logs to be posted and disected? Just a thought.

	25-09-2001 10:49									#72
	have a look Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The post I just posted on my thread named '2 strategies compared'.
I should probably have posted it here.

	26-09-2001 06:05									#73
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I tried my size 5 strat. Got Monarchy on 2600B (revolution to Monarchy 2450B), set up first size 5 on 2300B(?). Now at 1400B, 6 cities 5-5-2-2-2-1. 1 caravan+ 2 in production. No wonder yet. 12 Techs total, researching Republic, 4 turns per tech. Seems that I sacreficed production for tech.

	26-09-2001 11:08									#74
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Geeeeee!
Xin Yu is having a try!
Thank you again, Gits.

(La Fayette, now waiting for SlowThinker to join us)

	27-09-2001 05:44									#75
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm at 1500ad now.I built SETI in 1300.Space Flight 1400.Apollo 1420.
I'm 3 turns from launching a 25-5-5-1-1-1 with or without Fusion Power.So my ETA will be 1540 or 1543AD.

Attachment: rr1500ad.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	27-09-2001 09:01									#76
	Suffering from ads?

Seems like everyone is smashing us into the ground - we must learn to play this silly game sometime ...

Sorry, ther won't be an update this Friday - 'tis my birthday - so we shall be indulging in even more serious consumption of the EEC's wine lake ...

	27-09-2001 09:25									#77
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm starting to feel like I have participated in the hijacking of a thread

Last edited by Smash on 27-09-2001 at 10:19

	27-09-2001 14:14									#78
	Tired of ads?

20 Leptis Parva builds settlers. New research goal; mathematics. Malaca builds food caravan. Rushbuild sewer system in Carthage. Rushbuy 4 shields toward setters in Rusicade. Rushbuy 5 shields toward caravan in Utica. Change taxes to 60/20/20.
40 Carthage builds sewer system, switch to bank. Food Malaca->Carthage. Tingis completes horsemen, switch to settlers. Saguntum established. Rushbuy shields: 5 in Utica, 4 in Rusaddit, 3 in Malaca.
60 Leptis Magna, Girba, Caralis, Rusicade build settlers. Carthage size 13. Food Utica->Carthage. Rushbuy 15 shields in Utica, 10 in Panormus, 23 in Malaca. Rushbuy 71 shields in Carthage.
80 Sioux attack Carthage, Carthage size 12, WLTQD cancelled . Food Panormus->Carthage. Set taxes to 50/20/30.
100 WLTQD in Carthage, size 13. Food Utica->Carthage. Rushbuy 37 shields in Panormus, 18 in Alalia. Naples established. Change taxes to 70/10/20.
120 Carthage size 14. Taxes 60/10/30. Food Panormus->Carthage.
140 Trondheim builds Oracle. Carthage size 15. Rushbuild 14 shields toward bank in Carthage. Food Panormus->Carthage. Issus established.
160 Rusaddit builds settlers. Carthage size 16. Taxes 70/10/20. Rushbuild 35 shields in Panormus. Food Utica->Carthage.
180 Carthage size 17. Rushbuy 35 shields in Utica, Malaca. Food Malaca->Carthage. Rushbuy city walls in Carthage. Taxes to 40/40/20; we need to grow more for WLTQD.
200 Carthage size 18, WLTQD cancelled. Rushbuild diplomat in Alalia. Cunaxa established. Taxes 70/10/20. Food Panormus->Carthage.

Attachment: dv_a200.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	27-09-2001 14:17									#79
	Increase the size of your Attachments

220 Viking trireme moves away (they don't want to be bribed?). Carthage size 19.
240 Carthage size 20. Food Malaca->Carthage. Cremona established. Rushbuy 35 shields in Utica, Malaca.
260 Carthage size 21. Babylonians start Copeernicus's Observatory. Taxes to 30/40/30. Food Panormus->Carthage.
280 Carthage size 22. Food Utica->Carthage. Rushbuy 35 shields in Panormus, 2 in Saguntum, 1 in Rusicade, 6 in Issus.
300 Carthage size 23, WLTQD . Silk (D) Tingis->Carthage, 144. Rushbuy 45 (should have been 35) shields in Utica, 45 in Malaca, 38 in Alalia, 3 in Rusaddit.. Food Malaca->Carthage. Cannae established. Sioux start Copeernicus's Observatory.
320 Carthage size 24. Mathematics discovered, Astronomy next. Capua established. Silver (D) Cartenna->Carthage, 240; Copper (D) Carthago Nova->Carthage, 108; Silk (D) Oea->Carthage, 186. Rushbuild explorer in Leptis Magna. Rushbuy 43 shields in Akragas, 14 in Girba, 1 in Caralis, 20 in Tingis, 35 in Theveste, 14 in Rusicade, 5 in Rusaddit, 10 in Oea, 10 in Leptis Magna, 10 in Carthago Nova. Taxes 0/70/30. shields in Girba.
340 Astronomy discovered, Invention next. Change production in Carthage to Copernicus's Observatory. Add 5 caravans to wonder production in Carthage, rushbuy remaining 41 shields. Silver (D) Gades->Carthage, 134. Taxes 60/10/30. Rushbuy 1 shield in Cartenna. Rushbuy 47 shields in Malaca.
360 Carthage builds Copernicus's Observatory. Americans, Babylonians, Sioux abandon same . Rushbuy 40 shields in Utica, Panormus.
380 Rushbuy 1 shield in Gades, 42 in Carthage, 47 in Capua, 50 in Panormus and Utica. Silk (D) Akragas->Carthage, 240; Silk Theveste->Carthage, 92; Silk Leptis Parva->Carthage, 84.
400 Invention discovered, University next. Add 7 caravans to project in Carthage. Dye Tingis->Carthage, 25; Silk Girba->Carthage, 32; Silk. Taxes 10/60/30. Rushbuy 36 shields in Malaca, 50 in Carthage, 1 in Rusicade.

Attachment: dv_a400.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	27-09-2001 14:20									#80
	Suffering from ads?

420 Carthage builds Leonardo's Workshop. Vikings (cordial) encountered. Peace, won't trade knowledge nor maps. Silk Caralis->Carthage, 26; Copper (D) Rusicade->Carthage, 84; Silk Carthago Nova->Carthage, 28; Silk Leptis Magna->Carthage, 31.
440 University discovered, Theory of Gravity next. Russians encountered, they give me Iron Working for Invention. Wine Theveste->Carthage, 46; Copper (D) Rusucurru->Carthage, 68; Silk Rusaddit->Carthage, 34; Salt Oea->Carthage, 33. Rushbuy University in Carthage, 4 shields in Malaca.
460 Carthage builds university, switch to caravan. Rushbuy 17 shields in Capua, 2 in Saguntum, 5 in Utica, 5 in Panormus, 3 in Malaca. Silk Saguntum->Carthage, 46.
480 Theory of Gravity discovered, Chemistry next. Rushbuy 5 shields in Utica, 5 in Panorums, 3 in Malaca, 12 in Carthage.
500 Rushbuy 8 shields in Capua.
520 Turin established. Rushbuy 5 shields in Himera, 8 in Capua. Sioux undertake Magellan's Expedition. Barbarians land near Himera.
540 Chemistry discovered, Gunpowder next. Silk Cartenna->Carthage, 52. Rushbuy 28 shields in Capua, 2 in Cunaxa. Withdraw from Himera in hopes of buying off barbs. Barbs sack Himera.
560 Taxes to 20/50/30. Rushbuy 4 shields in Himera.
580 Rushbuy 2 shields in Carthage, 8 in Capua, 5 in Utica, 5 in Panormus. Dye Gades->Carthage, 28. Hut: advanced tribe (Genoa). Taxes 0/70/30.
600 Gunpowder discovered, Democracy next. Taxes 20/50/30. Rushbuy 27 shields in Turin, 2 in Carthage, 8 in Capua, 5 in Panormus, 3 in Cremona, 5 in Utica. Taxes to 0/70/30.
Dye Girba->Carthage, 33; Hides Carthago Nova->Carthage, 29; Coal Theveste->Carthage, 49; Wool Tingis->Carthage, 27; Silk (D) Rusicade->Carthage, 135.

Attachment: dv_a600.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	27-09-2001 23:33									#81
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Scouse Gits Seems like everyone is smashing us into the ground - we must learn to play this silly game sometime ...

You are not that much into the ground, brothers!
My mighty computers have calculated that the power of your civ in 1AD is stronger than mine(and I have just finished conquering the world in 1758 ).
Pray, brothers! Carthage won't be destroyed!

	27-09-2001 23:40									#82
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Smash I'm 3 turns from launching a 25-5-5-1-1-1 with or without Fusion Power.So my ETA will be 1540 or 1543AD.

WOW!
Great game, smash!
That's more than 2 centuries ahead of arii!
Sweet, sweet rehoming

	28-09-2001 11:35									#83
	comparison table at 1 AD Support Apolyton

This table is not nice to look at (I must plan to travel to Liverpool and get solid briefing by SG1 ), but I hope you find it interesting.

6 players have sent savegames at 1 AD. Here are the results:

Dave V__: 134, (73), (122), 62, no
smash__: 124, (51), (146), 74, starting
arii_____: 114, (56), (115), 63, no
Gits_____: 92, (61), (61), 43, yes
Xarathas_: 86, (51), (69), 49, no
LaFayette: 60, (18), (84), 42, yes

Column 1 is Building Power (BP = NS + 0.5 CF)
Column 2 is Net Shields (NS = Production - Support)
Column 3 is Cash Flow (CF = Gold earned - Maintenance)
Column 4 is Worked Shields (WS = Sum of city sizes + Number of cities)
Column 5 is foreign trade (yes = at least 1 caravan delivered)

Remarks:
Dave is #1 (we knew that already )
I am #6 (but I am #1 in foreign trade; if that was taken into account, the Gits would probably be very close to arii and I would be very close to both of them)
Other remarks
( in fact I haven't yet published my savegame, because I have never done that in my life and I don't know how to do it, but I shall have a try NOW).
(I remember having had a discussion with Dave about shields and arrows; look at the table: Dave 73s, LF 18s; hello Dave!)

	28-09-2001 11:50									#84
	owsthat? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

With a little bit of luck, here is my savegame

Attachment: ra_a1.zip
This has been downloaded 6 time(s).

	28-09-2001 12:33									#85
	1758: Rabid Rodent rules the world Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

It seems that I'm now able to attach savegames.
Therefore, here is 1758...
with a few milestones:
260AD: Astro + Mike
440AD: Cope
720AD: Sanitation
800AD: Shake
820AD: Invention
1080AD: Navigation
116OAD: Isaac
1240AD: Steam Engine
1260AD: 7 ironclads (unfortunately non vet, since the AI discovered Magnetism on that very turn)
...and here we go ! (... here we sail )

Attachment: ra_a1758.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	28-09-2001 14:38									#86
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Congratulation smash! Impressive.
This clearly shows that early foreign trade is the better strategy.

	28-09-2001 20:46									#87
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by arii Congratulation smash! Impressive. This clearly shows that early foreign trade is the better strategy.

With a lot of early caravan rehoming on top of it

(La Fayette, dreaming that rehoming is going to be legal in civ3)

	28-09-2001 22:13									#88
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Here's my plan:

Start of the game: you are at continent # 41, and the land mass is not big. Conclusion: This map has a lot of small islands. Super Iconclad to conquer will be the fastest way to win. You have Hor as a starting tech, so before Iro is discovered you'll be safe from barbarians (horses can beat barb archers). SE (tech for Iconclad) can be as early as the 24th tech and you already have 4 at the beginning. Which means, 20 techs to victory!

Step 1: Alp, Col, Mon -- revolution
Step 2: Cur, Tra -- caravans, MPE
Step 3: Map -- Trieme, Lighthouse

Stop researching for a while, trade techs and maps with other civs, rush buy triemes and caravans for trading.

Techs to research afterwards: Pot -- HG (Optional), Wri, Lit, Rep (optional, if you built HG you can use WLTKD to grow poplation), Mas, Cst, Mat, Ast, Sea, Whe, Eng, Nav, Phy, Inv, SE. -- Super Iconclad. Note: only trade techs to get things from the above list. If any civ discovers Iro, consider trade it as well for defending against barbarian.

	29-09-2001 01:26									#89
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Xin Yu
I agree completely with your analysis of this game (horsemen against barbs, ironclads to conquer, quite few techs needed).
But Steam Engine was my tech #35 (instead of 24 or 25 according to your advice).
Here are the 10 techs I got on top of your list:
Bank, Brid, Iron, Medi, Mono, Phil, Poly, Sani, TGrav, Univ.
Block #1 = Mono, Phil, Poly (Phil is free if discovered first, Mono is very useful because of happiness and Mike)
Block #2 = Medi, Sani, TGrav, Univ ( = Fat SSC and strong research)
Block #4 = Bank (= gold in the fat SSC)
Block #5 = Iron, Brid (got those unwilling (huts), they prove useful just after SE, allowing immediate research of RR, then Indust, both very useful for fluid logistics behind the ironclads).

I am very happy that you have decided to play this game.

	29-09-2001 03:47									#90
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Actually,I didn't start foreign trade very much until Magnetism.Then it went into high gear.I was rushing freights every turn where possible.Rehoming tripled the payoff,at least.I had a bunch of freights waiting on US land for most of the last half game or so.1 was all I needed to fill the box enough.My civ was never going to generate enough for multiple techs on its own.Not even 1 alone.So the best I could hope for was 1 per turn.I kept that rate for many turns.Only losing it a couple times.Magellans paid for itself many times over.
All that gold just kept getting recycled into freights,improvements and wonders.I couldn't spend it fast enough.
Being isolated(somewhat)allowed me to forget about defense early.2 elephants could have wiped me out a 1 point .I think 2.42 doesn't hurt here either.

btw I have arrived in 1543.I could not muster enough science to get Fusion in time.I would have,had it been offered when it should have been