08-09-2001 03:48									#1
	Come! Laugh at an SG! Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Turn-at-a-time Comparison Game

We have seen lots of 'interesting' ways of playing this game particularly in the various Succession Games that we have played. Currently there are several regular posters here who have yet to win at Deity - we find this fairly easy (Hides behind very large wall!) and thought that it might just be useful both to those people who have yet to achieve their first Deity victory and to us - who firmly expect that the real experts will tear our game appart! Hence -- we have embarked upon a totally random Deity game and will present it to you our auditors for, as our old exams used to say "Compare and Contrast" with your own style. We are doing this blind - the Barbs might wipe us out in 3900, and we finish with egg on our faces, but so what --- here it comes...

The file attached at the end of this posting is a zip file containing the first 20 turns, 4000BC to 3000BC turn at a time - our log goes a little further - but we shall post another zip with the next 10 or 20 turns after our next session ...
_________________________________________________
How the SGs (try to) play this silly game ...

Deity - Civ 2 v 2.42 - Raging Hordes - Random (Standard Large) Map - 7 Civs - No Restarts

Playing as: Carthaginians (SG1 won the toss)

New Years Eve 4001BC
We start with: Bronze Working; Ceremonial Burial; Horseback Riding & Mysticism - can't be bad!

We start life in the Save Game attached - a whale and a hut in sight ...

Debate:
SG1: There is a second special two SW of the hut therefore we should aim to found our capital to enjoy this second special and the whale!
SG2: Let's see about the hut first ...

3950: Third special (fish) sighted; hut yields Masonry
3900: Second Special revealed as Silk
3850: Carthage founded on three (maybe four) special site
3800: Alphabet selected - 13 turns to go; woodland hut hoves into view

Debate:
SG2: We won't get anything by popping this hut - save it a bit

3750: More ocean sighted - this is a fairly small island!
3650: Whale - Utica founded
3500: Horse & Warrior completed; hut yields 50g
3400: Alphabet discovered; Code of Laws undertaken - 10 turns
3350: hut yields another 50g - damn we were hoping for a unit or an Advanced Tribe
3250: Carthage goes to 2; builds Temple; switches to Wonder (debate starts as to which Wonder!)
3150: hut 50g - AGAIN!
3000: Utica builds Settler; Code of Laws discovered; Monarchy now being sought - 12 turns
2850: Malaca founded research at 9 - this is certainly not going to be ICS - SG1 cries into his red wine
2500: Monarchy! - go for Currency
2450: Monarchy established; Utica builds Settler

__________________________________________
The SGs on a red wine tandem

Attachment: gits 4000-3000.zip
This has been downloaded 67 time(s).

	08-09-2001 04:54									#2
	Suffering from ads?

Cool idea, SGs. Personally, I always get the sense that I could win consistently on deity if I learned to micromanage better and not make dumb time-wasting (but often irresistibly fun) mistakes. Besides that, I get so p***ed off at the levels of unhappiness that I almost always find conventional Deity to be too frustrating.

So I'll be reading along, to see how you experts handle unhappiness... and I expect to wind up being inspired to play more on Deity myself.

STYOM

Last edited by Six Thousand Year Old Man on 08-09-2001 at 05:03

	08-09-2001 08:28									#3
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Great idea SG's! So far you are beating the Barb's.

I play purely for relaxation and am very interested in seeing other playing styles. This will be an interesting read.

	08-09-2001 15:16									#4
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

just as an added thought, will you include what squares your citys are working so i can see if my micromanagment ideas are on the right track, that is Shields Versus Food Versus Trade Arrows,,

Thanks guys

Actually jsut realsied i can just open the Save games i guess to see, but i was hoping to sort of play the game along with you and make my moves based on what you are doing !!!

	08-09-2001 17:09									#5
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Entertaining as always!

Sorry for the thread jacking, but how's our Bloodlust OCC succession game progressing?

Carolus

	08-09-2001 23:36									#6
	Laugh at the SGs Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

We need a thread to do this!?

Actually, excellent idea. Altho I have no time at present to join, I'll be sure to follow along.

	09-09-2001 02:40									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

So far,so good
I'm waiting for you at 1AD.


I hope this isn't going to be Hall of Fame attempt

Last edited by Smash on 24-09-2001 at 08:37

	09-09-2001 16:00									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Hi Scouse Gits,

I think this is a very good idea! I am a rather inexperienced player, even struggling to win at King level, and I hope to learn a lot from this step by step approach.
Too late now ... but Civ3 should have some sort of log function, so that entire games can be recorded, and replayed by others. Now we have to load and quit, load and quit -- well, not too much of a problem really.
I'm looking forward to see how you manage on what seems to be a small island.

Greetings from Amsterdam,
Oldenbarnevelt

	10-09-2001 20:52									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

SGs, great idea. I can win at bloodlust (or just conquering) at deity, but have yet to get to AC at this level. With all those soldiers doing garrison duty (3 per city by Democracy time), I manage to get distracted from the science quest part of the game. Have you set a strategy yet, or is the exploration phase pre-strategy?

	10-09-2001 21:50									#10
	Remove this text

Not really a fair comparison, since I popped a horse in the initial hut. But, here's my first 1000 years:

4000 The coastal square by the whale looks perfect for a first city: whales and forest to work.
3950 Horsemen in hut! Hooray! Carthage established.
3900 Researching Alphabet. 6 turns/tech.
3850 Utica established.
3700 Alphabet discovered, Code of Laws next. 9 turns/tech.
3600 Horsemen completed in Carthage, warriors completed in Utica. Both cities switched to settlers.
3450 Carthage: change production to warriors. Rushbuy one shield, then change production back to settlers. Now we'll build a settler in 6 more turns. Move worker to forest; the new worker will be put on whales and we'll have 5 shields next turn.
3350 Utica: move worker onto silk.
3250 Code of Laws discovered. Currency next (Monarchy not available ), 10 turns/tech. Utica: switch to horsemen, buy two shields, switch back to settlers.
3150 Carthage builds settlers.
3000 Utica builds settlers.

Or, is this not what you're looking for, Gits? Are you just soliciting kibitzers for your saves?

Edit: changed the save file names, per suggestion.

Attachment: dv_b3000.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

Last edited by DaveV on 12-09-2001 at 21:41

	10-09-2001 23:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I, for one, like to see how others tackle the same map.

There is a problem, though. You should not give away information that the others do not possess yet, OR players should not read each others logs. A simple spoiler warning should be enough.

It would be nice if you changed the name of the leader (Rabid Rodent), so that kibitzers can save all files to one directory.

Oldenbarnevelt

	11-09-2001 06:23									#12
	Increase Your PM Length

I also started this game, and actually got it to the point where it would be tedious to proceed. I did not keep as good a log, or as many saves, but here are a few observations of the progress, so far.
I also founded the same place as sg, liking the trade and production specials. I founded utica 3 squares south. My reasoning is that I like to have a second city within 3 squares of the capitol so that caravans stored in either city can be used to build wonders in either, and sometimes both.
It looks like sg started a wonder early, but I built a settler first. I think you need to get the first four cities started asap.
I see that davev used some gold to micromanage the settler production early. I have not used this technique in my games, but I think I will do this in my next game. The start is very important, and a little extra time to do this is not very hard.
I also built a horseman early on, but instead of using him for exploration, I used him as a defender, freeing up a warrior to explore. It takes longer to explore, but a warrior can easily uncover the terrain before you expand into it. The horseman will defend(by attacking) against barbs, while a warrior is useless.
I have zipped the random saves, and will e-mail it to anyone who wants it. If someone can tell me how to get the file into a link on this post, I will try to do that.

	11-09-2001 06:28									#13
	Got spare money?

I see a file attachment box at the end, but my file is too big, and I don't have any saves until a450.

	11-09-2001 06:28									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I also started this game, and actually got it to the point where it would be tedious to proceed. I did not keep as good a log, or as many saves, but here are a few observations of the progress, so far.
I also founded the same place as sg, liking the trade and production specials. I founded utica 3 squares south. My reasoning is that I like to have a second city within 3 squares of the capitol so that caravans stored in either city can be used to build wonders in either, and sometimes both.
It looks like sg started a wonder early, but I built a settler first. I think you need to get the first four cities started asap.
I see that davev used some gold to micromanage the settler production early. I have not used this technique in my games, but I think I will do this in my next game. The start is very important, and a little extra time to do this is not very hard.
I also built a horseman early on, but instead of using him for exploration, I used him as a defender, freeing up a warrior to explore. It takes longer to explore, but a warrior can easily uncover the terrain before you expand into it. The horseman will defend(by attacking) against barbs, while a warrior is useless.
I have zipped the random saves, and will e-mail it to anyone who wants it. If someone can tell me how to get the file into a link on this post, I will try to do that.

	11-09-2001 14:24									#15
	Suffering from ads?

It's great to have so much interest! Thanks all, particularly DaveV for giving us a comparison - we would have killed for that initial Horseman, but I think the redundant tech might just let us into Monarchy faster - we still have yet to decide an overall strategy, several are under discussion - Perfection + Lighthouse initially with a choice of either two continent trade or Vet Crusader/Super Ironclad conquest; Sleaze + Gardens and await the 2nd Wonder to determine longer-term strategy; or, currently marginally ahead on the opinion polls some kind of hybrid with Carthage and a rather fine southern city site being protected and a sleazy mess of support villages - the longer term still very much undecided

Just a couple of quick comments,

• geofelt - you can explore in safety for the first sixteen turns - no barbs (except from huts) in those first few years - by then your second unit (warrior) is in place and your Horse can return for offensive defense purposes.
• although we cursed the 150g from huts - we used it extensively for rushing, both incrementally for settlers and to rush the Temple so as to advance the start of the Wonder.

	13-09-2001 00:00									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Mind if I join Although it'll slightly be different for me(at least for diplomacy) since the only copy of Civ2 I can still find ( I had the old Civ2 before but lent it to someone a long time ago and was never seen again) is the MGE version.

	13-09-2001 01:20									#17
	Support Apolyton

3950: hut, Horsey
3850: hut, Horsey again, Carthage, whale and silk
3800: research, alphabet, 6 turns estimate
3700: Utica, no special.
3650: Carthage builds warrior.
3550: hut, 25 gold, horsey find wheat by river, Alphabet (I think it was this year, forgot to record it, lol) Start code of laws.
3500: horsey find buffalo, near wheat.
3450: horsey find pheasant, 3 west of wheat. The common square(for city building) would be a forest, Utica builds warrior.
3350: Scroll, Warrior's Code
3300: Horsey notices the whale Utica missed *sniff* and the location of Utica makes it rather impractical for me to make use of that whale. Other Horsey notices whale near pheasant.
3250: Discovers another pheasant near the pheasant whale, 3 speical site (common square = forest) and possibly a 4th special.
3150: Discovered fish near the whale Utica missed... now it's tempting me
3100: Carthage builds settler, starts on Colossus for now. Island completely mapped.
3050: Code of Laws Starts on Monarchy, disgusting science rate (I really miss that 2nd whale now) Settler builds road near carthage.

Attachment: xar_b3000.zip
This has been downloaded 10 time(s).

	13-09-2001 01:59									#18
	Got spare money?

Welcome aboard - Xarathas

-----------

SG(2)

Last edited by Scouse Gits on 13-09-2001 at 08:06

	13-09-2001 06:12									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

oi! thanks

	14-09-2001 23:29									#20
	Second tranche Increase Your PM Length

3000: Utica builds Settler; Code of Laws discovered; Monarchy now being sought - 12 turns
2850: Malaca founded research at 9 - this is certainly not going to be ICS - SG1 cries into his red wine
2500: Monarchy! - go for Currency
2450: Monarchy established; Utica builds Settler
2200: Road between Utica & Malaca
2100: Carthage = 3; Malaca = 2; Currency! Trade not offered

Debate:
Do we choose Map Making for the Lighthouse or Pottery for the Gardens ???
After much soul searching the decision was cast for the Gardens - the Admiral actually agreed!!!

2000: Here is the next batch ... 3000 - 2000BC
__________________
The SGs having red fun

Attachment: gits 3000-2000.zip
This has been downloaded 11 time(s).

	14-09-2001 23:34									#21
	Increase Your PM Length

You know, come to think of it, I have yet to build the Lighthouse in a Deity game. (Only time I build that accursed wonder is when I'm trying to get all the wonders, which I have yet to be able to do in deity.)

	15-09-2001 01:09									#22
	2000-1500BC Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

_____________
The SGs getting very well lubricated

Attachment: gits 2000-1500.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	15-09-2001 01:11									#23
	1500-1000BC Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

1950: Malaca builds Settler
1850: Utica builds Settler; Caralis founded
1750: Warrior in Caralis
1700: Lord Macauley claims we are Pathetic (wealth)
1650: Pottery discovered - Trade next; Panormus founded;
1500: Babylonians destroyed by Barbs ... the Barbarian city of Babylon is the greatest city on the planet!
1450: Warrior in Panormus;
1400: Americans start Colossus; Settler in Malaca;
1350: Gardens in Carthage - celebration! - Trade!

Debate:
What do we research: - the options are: Construction, Map Making, Mathematics, Polytheism, Wheel & Writing
after much debate - Maps & Writing can be traded after we build Marco's - (we are assuming that we can build both the Colossus and Marco's before the AI) so the choice now lies in an 'advanced' tech after some debate in which SG1 favoured Construction the decision was to settle for Mathematics

1300: Leptis Parva founded - the Empire will build Caravans ...
1200: Caralis builds Dye Caravan
1150: Utica builds Food Caravan
1050: Aztecs start Pyramids - our population now 200,000
1000 - poised for victory (we hope)
_______________________________
The SGs drowning in some excellent South Aftican Merlot

Attachment: gits 1500-1000.zip
This has been downloaded 12 time(s).

	15-09-2001 01:16									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Ahhhh - Xarathas, never underestimate the power of the Lighthouse!!! Your naval units are veterans and move one square more (except for triremes) the first step towards the Super Ironclad! This invincible beast has a movement of 7 (with Magellans) and attacks and defends at 6 and there is nothing on land nor sea that can stop it - except Magnetism!
_______________________
The High Admiral and his drunken sidekick

	15-09-2001 02:17									#25
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Okay, point taken SG Though in Deity, it's really hard to justify getting the lighthouse and sacrificing a wonder like colossus, HG, etc. I'll give it a shot sometimes

Second Millenium

2950: Babylonian Civilizations destroyed by the Barbarians.
2750: Utica builds settler.
2700: Building road by Utica.
2650: Malaca Founded on river, no special
2350: Caralis Founded on river, buffalo + wheat. Switched the grass/road to silk in Carthage to get Monarchy in time for 0edo year
2250: Monarchy Revolution, Government changed.
2100: Caralis builds warrior.

Third Millenium

1850: Currency, yup, no trade either, researching pottery.
1800: Malaca builds settler.
1750: Utica builds settler.
1700: Building road near Utica. St. Augustine thinks I'm puny (wealth)
1650: Malaca builds warrior. (had one of the original horseys here to keep order)
1550: Caralis builds Settler, Panormus Founded (2 pheasants, 1 whale, built on forest.)
1500: Leptis Parva founded, (whale and fish I originally missed, founded on forest.) Building road on wheat near Caralis.
1450: Pottery, researching trade.
1400: LOL, yup, the top city is Barbarian's Babylon, with the size of 4! Irrigating wheat.
1350: Panormus builds phalanx, Aztec building pyramid, Americans building Colossus.
1250: Leptis Parva builds phalanx.
1100: Utica builds settler, Americans changed from colossus to Great Library. Caralis builds temple, starts on wonder.
1050: Trade, researching writing. Caralis switches to Marco's. Building road near Utica, Caralis.
1000: Malaca builds temple, starts on Caravan. HG 3 turns to completion.


Okay, made a few city management errors, (rather, I neglected them when they gained a pop.. stinkin AI always sticks them on fish!@#). Whether or not writing will be a good tech choice is still up in the air. Other than that, things seems to be going okay.

Attachment: xar_b2000_b1000.zip
This has been downloaded 5 time(s).

	15-09-2001 13:24									#26
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

without Lighthouse do you simply research to a better ship to explore the sea , I like Lightohuse to allow me to get to other Continents quickly ...

	15-09-2001 15:39									#27
	Inflate your Upload Space

Well, no, I just kinda roam around the coast (it's perfectly safe to go one square out then get back to the coast at the end of the turn) until I find land. It's pretty easy to see land that are 3 spaces away from the coast (without cheating by clicking on black area) if you go 1 space out into the sea. I don't think I've once gotten stuck on an island where there's no land nearby.

	15-09-2001 16:11									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

wow gee you are lucky, many games i have lost triremes in a esperate attempt to find more land more than 3 sqaures fromcoast !!!!!

	15-09-2001 21:36									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

just in case you don't know:

in MGE you can use the end turn keyboard shortcut and triremes will never sink.Same trick that is used for planes and missiles.

	16-09-2001 03:30									#30
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Really? I coulda sworn my triremes still sank even though I used the end turn key on the keyboard (I always use that one).

Regardless, I still won't use it, trying to avoid as many glitch-cheats as possible.
:P