09-09-2001 00:50									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Hey, bright eyes.
What do you not understand?
I couldn't care less if you spend your money on an SP game.
My gripe is that if it's true that there is no MP available, without a patch, that it's b.s.
So, back at you. Do you have a problem with people wanting MP option?

	09-09-2001 00:57									#32
	Inflate your Upload Space

What has to be understand by all is that MP is just as important as SP is to many and that SP is just as important as MP is to many. SP is just as important as MP and MP is just as important to MP. So not including MP would be like not including SP.

	09-09-2001 01:00									#33
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

slow, no need to get snippy. i would absolutely love mp, but i could also understand if they would like to squeeze more bucks out for MP. no need to flame over their business attitude....

	09-09-2001 01:13									#34
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MP isn't needed. Europa Universalis has horrible mp and few people play it yet many profess it is the best game they've played so far this year. Many RPGs like Bioware's infinity engine games are still great even if you never play multiplayer.

Also, Civilization III will still be a much better game than the vast majority of title in the market right now. I really see no reason to pass it up over immaturity.

	09-09-2001 01:17									#35
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quote: MP isn't needed.

That's you, while many other people only like MP or like SP and MP.

quote: I really see no reason to pass it up over immaturity.

No, it's really not.

	09-09-2001 01:18									#36
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quote: Originally posted by LaRusso Slow, your arguments are fine, but why the activist approach? If someone wants to buy SP only game....it's his money....

The activist approach is because we DO want to buy the game. Us Multiplayers have been waiting as anxiously for Civ3 as everyone else. Now we find out that everything we have been waiting for is taken a way from us. We don't truly want to hurt Firaxis out of spite, we want them to realize that they are pissing off quite a lot of people and scramble to fix it.

Which is something I want to make clear to all the pissed off people out there. Our goal isn't to take our marbles and go home, its to hammer home our point to Firaxis and get them to change. Sure we'll go and download the game if we don't get our way, but we'd much rather Firaxis built a decent game for us that we wouldn't mind paying for in the store.

Put the release date back a month and do it right. Fully incorporate Multiplayer, don't make it a freaking add on or patch.

Multiplayers are a significant part of the gaming community, don't treat us like an afterthought!!

	09-09-2001 01:27									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

okay. perfect timing to see if the first bush year resulted in 'compassionate capitalism' (or was it 'conservativism'?)

	09-09-2001 01:32									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Perhaps we should wait and see to what extent MP isn't available in Civ 3 before we draw any conclusions.

	09-09-2001 01:35									#39
	Increase Your PM Length

Some of you MP'ers are talking as if civ3 won't have any MP at all. That's not true! You might have to wait a few months after the game is released in order to have MP, but you will have it no matter what. Furthermore, Firaxis has said that they are planning to make MP really good. I realize that you all are very dissapointed because you thought you would have MP right out of the box. But isn't it better to wait a few months and get a really cool MP instead of getting a half-baked MP right out of the box?

You will get your MP, so chill out!

	09-09-2001 01:39									#40
	Increase Your PM Length

Yeah, right. Ozzy, having admitted that you will pirate the game tells volumes about what segment of the community you belong to.

Look, Sid makes great games. Great games cost a lot to produce and game developer's make less money than other software developers unless they produce big hits.

Big hits take talent and time. Sid has the talent. Why do you want he and his team to scramble to put MP in? That is downright stupid. They need to take the time to build the game to its best.

The strategy they have chosen, doing a dual release, SP and then MP, will produce more revenue and that means more TIME.
And that means the final result will be a better game.

Sid isn't into ripoffs. He IS concerned about his reputation. He DID cancel the dino project because it didn't amount to a good game. That speaks volumes.

We SHOULD be willing to give Sid as much time as he needs. And as far as paying for two separate games, we SHOULD be willing to pay a premium for his products. They are worth it and he has earned it.

Having said all that the graphics I have seen really suck.

	09-09-2001 01:40									#41
	Inflate your Upload Space

Diplomat has a good point, and Maybe this is easy for me to say as a non-MPer. But I think just getting used to the game and learning all of it's finer nuances will keep you interested for a few months at least.

	09-09-2001 01:42									#42
	Put an end to popups!

I cannot agree with those who say that SP is equivelant to MP. Even an excellent AI can't do that. I'm not a big MP player but it is a very different game and far more difficult when playing good players.

For those who complain about having to wait in between turns . . . a suggestion: make your MP Civ nights a laundry or chore night. You get a lot done and still have the fun of playing Civ.

	09-09-2001 01:42									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

One thing in this discussion surprises me and that's the love of some folks here for CIV MP. ACtually, I 've been playing civ 2 MP only cross a lan against my wife here. It was fun, but only the 2 of us plus some AI opponents each turn took a whole lot of waiting time. Of course there are some things you can do (like some city management or looking at some advisors) but fact is, you're just waiting for your turn.

Because playing with limited time turns or something like that is no option for me (I want it all and I need my Time) ,playing with six human opponants seems rather dull to me. (All that waiting).

I'm really like the SP features of Civ 2 and no doubt I'll like civ3 too.

I guess turnbased games and Multiplayer features are just not as good a match as Realtime games and Multiplayer.

Anyway, I'm gonna buy, with or without MP, as soon as it's released in Europe.

If a patch comes out, I'll download it. But I wont spend another pot of gold for a seperate MP ediation half a year later.


BTW, Consider the fact that over here (Holland) a lot of people still use the Internet over a Phone dial-up connection and that local calls cost money too...
So a civ game lasting several nights cross the Internet for many people is a bit too much of the good...(is this an english expression or am I messing things up?).

Grtx

Last edited by tuckson on 09-09-2001 at 01:51

	09-09-2001 01:53									#44
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There are 2 issues here - 1. The validity of SP play 2. the wisdom of leaving out MP

1.
I personally dont play MP. I understand and acknowledge that a good human player will be more challenging then the AI (certainly true for Civ2 - some of us still struggle with deity, but thats a level where the AI gets a big production advantane - on a king, a level playing field, even a mediocre player like myself can routinely beat the AI.

BUT A. Lots of people never get to the point where SP Deity is easy, either because they arent that good, or they simply dont play that much - most buyers are not hard core players
B. Some of us cannot accomodate our family lives to multiplayer. Even the young people who love multiplay may someday reach this point
C. There are other paths to take for hard core civvers than MP. One is OCC or similar challenges. The one I have pursued is scenarios and the scenario community. My interest in Civ is focused more on history than on competitive game playing skills, and so im drawn more to the Scenario community than the MP community.

2. I still think it rather a poor decision not to include MP. Lots of dedicated fans DO play MP, and that number is likely to grow. It seems unreasonable to release a sequel to a game that already has a large MP audience without MP as a feature. And holding that off for later release just seems sleazy. I am sure there were reasons to hold off (in particular the desire to have a game to ship in time for Xmas season) but I can well understand people's frustration, and it seems quite reasonable that people who value MP will hold off buying the game.


LOTM

	09-09-2001 02:11									#45
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Some of you MP'ers are talking as if civ3 won't have any MP at all. That's not true! You might have to wait a few months after the game is released in order to have MP, but you will have it no matter what. Furthermore, Firaxis has said that they are planning to make MP really good. I realize that you all are very dissapointed because you thought you would have MP right out of the box. But isn't it better to wait a few months and get a really cool MP instead of getting a half-baked MP right out of the box? You will get your MP, so chill out!

MY thoughts exactly!

youre right too jimmyTrick... about the graphics, have you checked out the image from the thread about starting city size? its the newest screen we have, found in civ3.com, an updated version of an old screen in an 'ask the civ team' feature. And to me, those graphics, of the newest screen we have, look AWESOME!


LOTM - i believe the only valid issue is the wisdom of leaving out MP in the original. (the issue of the validity of SP is just bogus - of course it is valid - some may like MP better, but the vast majority of the civ-playing community doesn't have the time/patience to play MP) I do think it may have been a bad choice for sales, and maybe MP players will be dissapointed for a few months, but on the whole, those people who are flaming - rememeber there WILL be MP eventually, and there is defint++++no need to flame people who disagree with your point of view

	09-09-2001 03:51									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I could care less about real time multiplayer. I only ask for PBEM.

	09-09-2001 04:16									#47
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quote: Some of you MP'ers are talking as if civ3 won't have any MP at all. That's not true! You might have to wait a few months after the game is released in order to have MP, but you will have it no matter what. Furthermore, Firaxis has said that they are planning to make MP really good. I realize that you all are very dissapointed because you thought you would have MP right out of the box. But isn't it better to wait a few months and get a really cool MP instead of getting a half-baked MP right out of the box?

always the diplomat

If it costs more money to get MP, then it's ridiculous and firaxis is out of their minds. I buy one game, not 1/2 a game for my $60. If it is a download, the whole thing reeks of laziness and urge for money, as it's obvious there's a holiday production schedule to be met. As for your question, I'd rather a delay to make sure the one civ3 game I buy is the only one I buy.

quote: God forbid that game programmers try to make a living! What do you think they are, philanthropists?

Some do it at the gamer's expense, and out of pure ignorance for what's right for the game itself..

a) what's up with the limited edition? +$20
b) no initial multiplayer mode, possible cost to upgrade
c) maybe even an expansion pack, $30

Obviously they have to make money, but I won't unload $100 or so on civ3 just to get it up to snuff. Release one game, it's best for all parties. EA has killed its Sims franchise by releasing $150 worth of merchandise for it. From the looks of things now, Firaxis is doing the same. No way will civ3 last if the current information is correct - the community would be too divided, too angry, and some may be disappointed with the game itself when it ships.

It's happened before...

	09-09-2001 04:40									#48
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I'm not going to play MP... so sorry, can't help you with your boycot

	09-09-2001 05:03									#49
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i've played civ2 for two years, sp (and scenarios) kept me interested for 1, mp kept me interested for the second

i'm not going to buy half a game and then buy the other half later, i'd rather they released a whole game. if they release civ3 the way they did with civ2, i'll find something else to play

	09-09-2001 05:06									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I have generally found MP civ games per se to be a bit impractical as a rule. So PBEM will be a useful addition, but for the time being I am not especially concerned about the issue...

	09-09-2001 05:34									#51
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf EA has killed its Sims franchise by releasing $150 worth of merchandise for it.

Really? I have not heard that the Sims franchise is dead. Could you explain?

LOTM

	09-09-2001 05:51									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf EA has killed its Sims franchise by releasing $150 worth of merchandise for it.

Really? I thought they are working on the third expansion pack right now ...

edit: Sorry LOTM, didnīt see your post.

	09-09-2001 06:42									#53
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I suggest everyone check the other thread on this topic, the one with the poll. There Markus has posted a screen shot from the menu screen in Civ3. There is NO OPTION for Multiplayer!

Many of you are posting here saying you don't care about Multiplayer on the net just as long as you have your PBEM or Hotseat. Well there will be NO MULTIPLAYER AT ALL. No PBEM, no Hotseat, no LAN, nothing. If you want any of that you'll have to wait till May to pay another $30 with the rest of us.

This affects everyone. This shouldn't be a debate over which is better, SP or MP, this is a discussion about being terribly wronged by Firaxis. All MPers or potential MPers should feel wronged by this. They are putting half a game on the market and then charging you AGAIN for the other half.

Join the Boycott. Tell Firaxis we won't take this lying down. Tell Firaxis to make MP a FULL part of the game or we'll walk.

	09-09-2001 06:51									#54
	Put an end to popups!

Um Ozzy, feel free. But frankly I'd rather have just SP now than MP and SP in five months. Thirty bucks isn't that much.

	09-09-2001 07:33									#55
	Viva La Revolution! Support Apolyton

Alright all you irate Civ Fans. Time to channel your anger and try to avert this tragedy. I found a few ways to ease everyone in contacting Firaxis and giving them a piece of your mind. Send lots of e-mails, and persuade all your friends who feel the same about Multiplayer to write lots of e-mails. Tell Firaxis that we are pissed, tell them we won't buy two half-games. Tell them we want MP integrated into the game and sold upfront with the rest of it.

E-Mail Dan Magaha

E-Mail Kelley Gilmore Communications Manager

and E-Mail Ask The Civ Team

If people know of other e-mail addresses to use to contact Firaxis please let us know.

Also be sure to refer them to some hot threads on the topic, with lots of people who are hot under the collar about this issue. http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=26096

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=26117

Now! MPers, let your fingers do the talking. Give Firaxis a piece of your mind.

Last edited by OzzyKP on 09-09-2001 at 07:41

	09-09-2001 08:15									#56
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Really? I have not heard that the Sims franchise is dead. Could you explain?

quote: Really? I thought they are working on the third expansion pack right now ... edit: Sorry LOTM, didnīt see your post.

Don't worry about it lockstep, great minds think alike.

Actually yeah they are working on a third. And a Simsville. And a Sims Online. And a Sims 2. While the existing expansions have sold well, there's only so much money people have. Total up all the sims games out there, and you go upwards of $250. With all these games and so many similarities between them, The Sims naturally has a very fickle community, mostly consisting of people with either House Party or LL, or just the original, or a combination of two. By the end of next year, people will be so tired of the sims, it'll probably go away. The online communities are slowly fading off, and people have gotten over the initial novelty. That's a shame to me, because of the sheer potential of the genre.

Now, if there was only one Sims game, and we were waiting for a sequel with MAJOR gameplay innovations, then the series might have five or six years left in it. As things stand, EA really is shooting itself in the foot from every perspective but one: the quick money. IMO they would've made more with a long term franchise, but what can you do.

That's when I draw comparisons to the LE and the multiplayer edition. 3 different versions of civ3 might be released. And the TBS fanbase isn't big enough to make each one a success. So I personally think firaxis is taking the wrong route. but then again, what do I know?

	09-09-2001 13:28									#57
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quote: Originally posted by Pembleton MP puts me into a bad mood. I want to play games for fun, not to get agitated. I've played Age of Empires, Age of Kings, and Diablo2 multiplayer and I always get pissed off because kids or *******s are either disconnecting after losing or things such as constanly pausing the game. When they're winning, they start trash talking with you. In Diablo2 you have to deal with selfish kids who try to steal what you have or try to PK you (which means kill your character) in a game that's meant to be a team game vs. the computer.

Good points!

I have said it before and I say it again: Im not against multiplayer as an added feature, and I dont think Pempleton is either. I just think you MP-lovers should put things into proper perspective. Playing MP with a turnbased complicated several hour game like Civ-3 is not like playing MP with a game like "Half-life" or "Porsche challenge" - or even realtime strategy-games like "Starcraft" and the likes. It does to a very high degree stand and fall with the maturity and forbearing discipline of the participants who plays it. And the immature tone of some rant-replies, reveals exactly a kind of player-mentality I wouldnt want to waste time on playing against in a MP-sessions. Especially not in a turnbased patiently developing & diplomacy-interactive game like Civ-3.
Also, there are problems with time-syncronizing all players to certain compromised playing-hours and session-lenghts, and so on. Some people have to work for a living - and increasingly more people faces an increasingly lacking commodity: lots of free regular leisure-time to kill off. Add to that potentially weak server-/internet reliability and/or contenders with slow modems and so on. By comparison SP have something that MP can never hope to match: easy accessibility and time-flexible game-sessions, both in terms of when and how long to play.

Like I said; they can add MP - thats fine by me. But if they are FORCED (its not necessarily that they want to do it, you know) to postpone the MP-feature, to be added with the expected future expansion-pack instead - all in order to have time to develop/playtest something even better/more stable. Then so be it.

quote: Originally posted by markusf your living in the past. Besides the majority of people playing those games play MP. But your probably way to old to realize that. Who do you think buys the majority of the games?

You talk like Firaxis never gonna add MP. What gave you that idea? All they maybe is forced to do is delaying the MP-feature and add it together with lots of other cool stuff in a future reduced price Civ-3 expansion-pack. You do not doubth that they plan to add an expansion-pack do you?

	09-09-2001 16:33									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Now, if there was only one Sims game, and we were waiting for a sequel with MAJOR gameplay innovations, then the series might have five or six years left in it. As things stand, EA really is shooting itself in the foot from every perspective but one: the quick money. IMO they would've made more with a long term franchise, but what can you do. That's when I draw comparisons to the LE and the multiplayer edition. 3 different versions of civ3 might be released. And the TBS fanbase isn't big enough to make each one a success. So I personally think firaxis is taking the wrong route. but then again, what do I know?

You may be right regarding the Sims after all, Wiglaf. However, Iīd be glad if Firaxis ever was in a position to kill Civ3 that way: by actually selling a game and two expansion packs for about $100 to millions of customers.

I donīt view Civ3īs Limited edition as a different version, itīs rather the original game plus some goodies. If MP really is delayed, I expect (perhaps Iīm naive in this respect) Firaxis to release it as a free upgrade three or four months after the single-player version of Civ3, together with a possible feature to play with 12 or 16 civs in a game. An expansion pack would have to include all this plus additional Civs and refined gameplay.

	09-09-2001 17:30									#59
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Does anyone actually learn these games by jumping directly into MP?

Or do you play against the computer for a while and learn the game?

I don't think anyone will be jumping into MP games the first couple of months the game is out. Everyone has to learn it first against the AI. Then play MP.

If Firaxis offers it as a free download, who cares?

If they CHARGE for the mp addition, then that's a completely different story altogether.

	09-09-2001 17:36									#60
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quote: Originally posted by derek If they CHARGE for the mp addition, then that's a completely different story altogether.

They obviously not going to charge the MP-feature alone. Instead it will be added in a Crossfire-style reduced price expansion-pack.