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Sn00py
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From New Zealand
Aug 2001
time: 13:15
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This is very bad publicity, because they're making it obvious that they're in it for the money.
I don't play MP at all, only SP at the moment, if I had friends who liked MP, and a fast connection AND patience, I might enjoy it a lot.
MP should be included with Civ3 and leave it at that.
HOWEVER, IF Firaxis want to make Multiplayer a huge part of Civ3 and its taking a long time to implement it, then I don't mind MP not being included, I would love to play the game in its finished state without MP, and wait for Firaxis to finish MP later. That's not a problem =o)
I mean, whats the point of holding off civ for 6 more months just so that people who play MP can play MP, when its already playable in SP? 
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:15
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quote:
Originally posted by lockstep
You may be right regarding the Sims after all, Wiglaf. However, I´d be glad if Firaxis ever was in a position to kill Civ3 that way: by actually selling a game and two expansion packs for about $100 to millions of customers. 
I dont view Civ3´s Limited edition as a different version, its rather the original game plus some goodies. If MP really is delayed, I expect (perhaps I'm naive in this respect) Firaxis to release it as a free upgrade three or four months after the single-player version of Civ3, together with a possible feature to play with 12 or 16 civs in a game. An expansion pack would have to include all this plus additional Civs and refined gameplay. |
one thing I'm unsure about is, will the upgrade be a free download or a new, paid game? That's important when I pick up civ3: am I buying a soon to be MP/SP game or just one of the two? For $60, I think I ought to know.
As for your first paragraph, imagine you go to a store and see on the shelves:
CIV 3
CIV 3 Limited Edition
CIV 3 Multiplayer Expansion Pack
Of course I don't know whether or not that's accurate (worst case scenario: multiplayer expansion pack is different from the real SP/MP gameplay one, and you have four civ3 products), but if it turns out to be true, we're in for a lot of confusion come October. 
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:15
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quote:
I mean, whats the point of holding off civ for 6 more months just so that people who play MP can play MP, when its already playable in SP? |
for one thing, imagine what six months of development time can do for the AI, etc. Also, if I buy civ3, I'll feel like I'm being cheated so Firaxis can get rich quick over the holiday season.
Civ3 without multiplayer is a rushed product.
Think about that - Firaxis's big hurrah, the king of all TBS games, the followup to some of the best strategy disks and CDs in in history - is rushed out the door to meet a deadline. Sure, SP will be playable. MP will follow in three or four months. And there's a Limited Edition that comes in a pretty case. Don't forget a possible separate expansion pack that includes civs that should've been there for $60 to begin with.
Does that mean civ3 will be bad? No. But companies have pulled this trick on me and others before, so I think I'll wait to see if the SP mode, with all the millions of things the AI has to manage, turns out to be worth the hard earned money.
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
Actually yeah they are working on a third. And a Simsville. And a Sims Online. And a Sims 2. While the existing expansions have sold well, there's only so much money people have. Total up all the sims games out there, and you go upwards of $250. With all these games and so many similarities between them, The Sims naturally has a very fickle community, mostly consisting of people with either House Party or LL, or just the original, or a combination of two. |
So it doesn't appear the game is dead then does it. I mean they expect to sell more copies of the expansion pack don't they? Their online community is huge. Tons of new skins and items are still being made by the fans! So the game is going well.
So well in fact that they are making a MP version of the game. I think that is coming out this winter or this spring. I might be wrong but I think it will sell very well. I think I might buy it and give it a whirl. Was a fan of the first one though I haven't bought a single expansion pack. Don't need it but if others do - good for them.
Simsville is entirely different game. Something between the Sims and SimCity. There is a market for both games and they don't necessarily overlap so they hope to make the most of both with this one. Looks great as a sim but it is NOT the Sims. So the game is entirely seperate and should be good.
Sim 2 is not going to be out for at least a year. The Sims originally was released Jan 31, 2000. That means in a year we will at least be looking at fall 2002 or spring 2003. Three years between games is actually non-standard industry sequels. Those that enjoyed the first game will probably buy the second.
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By the end of next year, people will be so tired of the sims, it'll probably go away. The online communities are slowly fading off, and people have gotten over the initial novelty. That's a shame to me, because of the sheer potential of the genre. |
Matter of opinion. The game has almost two full years of fans with it, why will it stop by year end? It is a very addictive game that is easily accessible to non-diehard gamers. I don't see the game just falling off the rader screens at year end. I think it does have lasting power. If nothing else it has gone strong for two years!  How many other games can claim that?
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there was only one Sims game, and we were waiting for a sequel with MAJOR gameplay innovations, then the series might have five or six years left in it. As things stand, EA really is shooting itself in the foot from every perspective but one: the quick money. IMO they would've made more with a long term franchise, but what can you do. |
There was only one Sims game. The Sims. Just like there was only one Civ 2. But lets see Civ 2 had Fantastic Worlds which was all these extra scenarios that could have just been downloaded seems a lot like the Sims expansion packs. Civ 2 had MPG, sounds a lot like the Sims Online. Oh and another expansion Test of Time which seemed to just be Microprose cashing in and I would guess you would call Civ 2 one of the great games of all time. So why can't the Sims fans have the same type of stuff from their company?
Oh and about game innovations and what not. Civ 2 was not innovative. It was an evolution and certainly not a big one when five years were between the first and second game. So again your argument does not seem to hold much weight.
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when I draw comparisons to the LE and the multiplayer edition. 3 different versions of civ3 might be released. And the TBS fanbase isn't big enough to make each one a success. So I personally think firaxis is taking the wrong route. but then again, what do I know?  |
Well LE and the regular are just the same game with a prettier box. So that means there will be two versions of the game. While I am very angry about this, TBS gamers have supported this practice in the past. So that is probably why they think they can get away with it again.
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by LaRusso
well, sid needs a new porsche, or whatever. everyone's in it for the money. if they actually like their own product and are passionate about it, even better. but to boycott simply because they want our money....whew!
ozzie, what do you think - did they start making civ3 to please 'us fans' or perhaps 'for the money'? no prizes for correct answer.... |
Of course they are making this game for the money. And none of us can fault them for that. I can't tell them to throw away money any more than they can tell me to. Which is the entire point of this.
Regardless of Firaxis' motivations what they are doing is still angering many fans for whatever reason. If we are angry at Firaxis than we can simply not give them our money, thus a boycott. There is nothing wrong or unjust about a boycott and it isn't telling Firaxis they shouldn't care about money. What the boycott does is precisely tap into Firaxis' desire for money.
They want money and if they continue down this path they won't get any of ours. If leaving out MP can do all this it will seriously affect Firaxis' profits. Rumors will get out, reviews will suffer, people will boycott, all the incredibly positive hype surrounding this game will go down, and their profits will suffer. That is how boycotts work.
I'm not saying they shouldn't want money. What we are saying is that if they want money they should listen to our concerns.
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:15
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quote:
So it doesn't appear the game is dead then does it. I mean they expect to sell more copies of the expansion pack don't they? Their online community is huge. Tons of new skins and items are still being made by the fans! So the game is going well. |
They expect to beat the potential, the life, the purpose of the game in order to make tons and tons of short term money. They don't want to take a chance on giving the gamer something truely innovative; the concept of the sims dates back to 1990-1992. Also, all these expansions are only wanted by fans because the oringal game gets old - there's only so much you can do, so they want more - parties, aliens, etc. That's a sad testament not only to the design of The Sims, but also to the clear motivation of the developers: $$$, at the gamer's expense.
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Simsville is entirely different game. Something between the Sims and SimCity. There is a market for both games and they don't necessarily overlap so they hope to make the most of both with this one. Looks great as a sim but it is NOT the Sims. So the game is entirely seperate and should be good. |
Entirely separate? 50% of the game is based on the original, tired and beaten game. My point is, while the game is not dying saleswise, it soon will. There's only so much money people will throw at all these expansions that clearly expose the original game's weakness.
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Sim 2 is not going to be out for at least a year. The Sims originally was released Jan 31, 2000. That means in a year we will at least be looking at fall 2002 or spring 2003. Three years between games is actually non-standard industry sequels. Those that enjoyed the first game will probably buy the second. |
-The Sims
-Living Large/Livin it Up
-House Party
-Hot Date (!)
-Simsville
-The Sims Online
-The Sims2
All by 2002. That's a lot of extensions to the original. Too many. And it's my theory that people will grow tired and weary of EA and their, while clever, consumer insulting marketing plans.
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If nothing else it has gone strong for two years! How many other games can claim that? |
Sure, people are still buying it, and it sticks around the millions sold mark. But the popularity will backfire on it: since almost every gamer has heard of The Sims and heard of its millions of expansions and whatnot, the general attitude will eventually be 'more of the same' for my $30-50. Take Starcraft. It only had one expansion, and it was minor, not required to enjoy the game. The Starcraft fanbase is huge and Blizzard's reputation as a gaming company is remarkable - because they don't cheat or play with the consumer. Then you have EA: wow, our game's sold well - let's release six followups by the end of next year.
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There was only one Sims game. The Sims. Just like there was only one Civ 2. But lets see Civ 2 had Fantastic Worlds which was all these extra scenarios that could have just been downloaded seems a lot like the Sims expansion packs. Civ 2 had MPG, sounds a lot like the Sims Online. Oh and another expansion Test of Time which seemed to just be Microprose cashing in and I would guess you would call Civ 2 one of the great games of all time. So why can't the Sims fans have the same type of stuff from their company? |
Because Fantastic Worlds and MPGE weren't at the top of sales charts for two years. Since everyone knows about the sims, and by now have worn out its pretty shallow gameplay, I don't see much potential for the series. Even with all the add ons for civ, though, you only have two/four. They didn't exactly dominate the market, and didn't have the consumer saying "what's next", only to be disappointed. That's why civ is still popular, we didn't all eat up the expansions and play them to death and then make judgements about the original - because the original was self sufficient.
quote:
Oh and about game innovations and what not. Civ 2 was not innovative. It was an evolution and certainly not a big one when five years were between the first and second game. So again your argument does not seem to hold much weight. |
that's a matter of opinion. civ2 was huge innovation for me, as opposed to the sims which is mostly a text based simulation of pre scripted computer life
As I've said, The Sims is an amazing success. And EA is milking it to death. In five years, will the sims still be popular? Nah, probably not. But after five years, people still talk about good ol' civ2. Was it milked to death? No, it had an addon and a multiplayer program follow years after, both which were pretty good. That's opposed to EA's strategy, which is to make subpar $30 CDs every six months.
That's not to heavily bash the Sims. Actually I own it . But really, it isn't up to the gameplay standards I expect in the 21st century, and all these addons make me want to vomit. Hence, too many civ3 disks....
edit/ just to clarify, the sims is a great game and all, but my primary problem with it is the expansion packs that are sent out to cash in. in the process of shipping all these add ons, they tire the thing out a whole lot for me, personally, and that's too bad.
Last edited by Wiglaf on 09-09-2001 at 22:04
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tuckson
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
'Shove up your ass'? what's wrong with you? start saying that, and not only is your arguement lost, you also look like a fool and put people on your side in a bad light. calm down, man, it's only a little computer game... |
Right here too.
Go home and buy yourself Red Alert or something like that. Multiplayer enough.
By the way, have I accidentily entered the Simcity forums or something?
Grtx,
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wiglaf
They don't want to take a chance on giving the gamer something truely innovative; the concept of the sims dates back to 1990-1992. |
Wow, are you saying the concept of the Sims dates back to 1990-92 because of Sim City? If so are you saying that the sims is just a sim game and so the concept goes back to then?
If I don't know what to say. I really am not going to be able to convince you of anything because you are starting from a wrong stance. But I am going to try and write this entire post under the assumption that you believe that The Sims is a tired concept because it is a simulation.
quote:
Also, all these expansions are only wanted by fans because the oringal game gets old - there's only so much you can do, so they want more - parties, aliens, etc. That's a sad testament not only to the design of The Sims, but also to the clear motivation of the developers: $$$, at the gamer's expense. |
Well I find it hard to believe that people that are sick of the game are buying an expansion pack so that their sims can have parties. If they are sick of the game then they are done. They aren't buying expansion packs.
On the other hand I think it is a testament to design that they have allowed anyone to add any items to the game can. I can you can we all can. I think it is sad that anyone would buy the expansion packs but it is because they still play the game a ton. They love it and play for hours on end.
quote:
Entirely separate? 50% of the game is based on the original, tired and beaten game. My point is, while the game is not dying saleswise, it soon will. There's only so much money people will throw at all these expansions that clearly expose the original game's weakness. |
Yes The Sims and Simsville are entirely different games. No it is not based on the original game - it is an original game. They will appeal to many of the same people because it appeals to people that like simulation games. But yes they are seperate.
quote:
-The Sims
-Living Large/Livin it Up
-House Party
-Hot Date (!)
-Simsville
-The Sims Online
-The Sims2 |
Get rid of Simsville. And if you are going to include it you have to include all the SimCity games, all the RollerCoaster games, all the Maxis Sim Ant, Life, Earth, etc games and all the rest. They are all sims and that is their connection.
On the flip side then you need to include all Civs and their expansions, Imperialism, Colonization, MOO, and all other TBS games of all time.
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All by 2002. That's a lot of extensions to the original. Too many. And it's my theory that people will grow tired and weary of EA and their, while clever, consumer insulting marketing plans. |
Meanwhile there will be about double the amount of RTS games coming out and FPS so what is your point? There is a market for simulation games. So they will keep making them. Just like strategy companies will keep them coming and FPS and the rest.
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Sure, people are still buying it, and it sticks around the millions sold mark. But the popularity will backfire on it: since almost every gamer has heard of The Sims and heard of its millions of expansions and whatnot, the general attitude will eventually be 'more of the same' for my $30-50. |
So having everyone hear about your game and buy it hurts the game? Makes sense. 
quote:
Take Starcraft. It only had one expansion, and it was minor, not required to enjoy the game. The Starcraft fanbase is huge and Blizzard's reputation as a gaming company is remarkable - because they don't cheat or play with the consumer. |
And Maxis also has one of the best reputations of any companies out there. Their expansions are solid as are there games and have taken up countless hours. Sure the sales may trickle off but they still have made millions and made one of the greatest games of all time. So what is the problem?
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Because Fantastic Worlds and MPGE weren't at the top of sales charts for two years. |
So that makes it alright to sell expansions? If they don't sell than it was ok to release? Makes a ton of sense - if noone wants an expansion then go ahead and release it.
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Since everyone knows about the sims, and by now have worn out its pretty shallow gameplay, I don't see much potential for the series. |
I believe that I have worn out Civ's gameplay. But that doesn't mean they can't add a new wrinkle and add to the fun. I would have to believe Maxis fans feel the same way. Civ had expansions - The Sims had expansions. Both are great games.
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that's a matter of opinion. civ2 was huge innovation for me, as opposed to the sims which is mostly a text based simulation of pre scripted computer life |
Did you play Civ I? Colonization? Or any TBS game before Civ II? If so you will realize that while it is great it wasn't innovative.
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As I've said, The Sims is an amazing success. And EA is milking it to death. In five years, will the sims still be popular? Nah, probably not. |
Do people still talk about SimCity? Then why is The Sims going to be any different. It all depends on the crowds you hang with.
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That's not to heavily bash the Sims. Actually I own it . But really, it isn't up to the gameplay standards I expect in the 21st century, and all these addons make me want to vomit. Hence, too many civ3 disks.... |
I agree with you on that to many disks will ruin Civ III. But the fact of it is that the two games are radically different. It is harder to do expansion packs for strategy games and harder to justify their purchase. So I think it was easier for Maxis to release expansions than it will be for Firaxis.
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dennis580
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Slowhand obviously you are not mature enough to play a game like Civ3. I suggest you stick to your all flash and no substance click infested-action kiddy RTS games. While the rest of us play a real STRATEGY game where you actually use your brain and not just your reflexes.
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tniem
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Hope College
Apr 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis580
Slowhand obviously you are not mature enough to play a game like Civ3. I suggest you stick to your all flash and no substance click infested-action kiddy RTS games. While the rest of us play a real STRATEGY game where you actually use your brain and not just your reflexes. |
That is not what he is saying at all. I can beat the AI almost everytime I play. I have no doubt that this will carry over to Civ3. However, I know that I will lose to most of the Civ2 MP players because they are just amazing at the different strategies.
Those that have only played SP don't know the true joys of having an adaptable opponent.
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Wiglaf
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Cambridge
Dec 2000
time: 23:15
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tniem, I'll just touch up on your main points, rather than threadjack this thing to pieces .
Just because the game is a million seller, does not mean it is good, or that it will do well in the future. I know MANY products, videogames especially, that went out to the market because their concept was novel and did very well there, only to be spat upon by disgusted fans a few days later. Hence, if a game sells tons of copies but it isn't good, lookout. If I release a horrific baseball game that sold because of ads or name recognition, and then released an awesome baseball game the next year, it wouldn't do as well. Therefore the initial sales were counterproductive. Same thing carries over to The Sims - all the expansions, while definitely not 'horrific', aren't too great either, and people will eventually not keep shelling out the cash. And that refers back to civ3.
so, to answer your question,
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So having everyone hear about your game and buy it hurts the game? Makes sense. |
sometimes, yes it can. if civ3 is a million seller and it is a terrible game, firaxis would have tough times rebounding.
edit/
quote:
Wow, are you saying the concept of the Sims dates back to 1990-92 because of Sim City? If so are you saying that the sims is just a sim game and so the concept goes back to then? |
I was talking about other games maxis sort of ripped off, like little computer people from earlier in the decade -- I really think we should get off the sims-specific talk and make it more about civ though
Last edited by Wiglaf on 11-09-2001 at 04:20
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OzzyKP
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Rockville, MD
Oct 1999
time: 00:15
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Dan,
I am certain you have visited the Apolyton forums and noticed the incredible uproar generated by the leaked information that Multiplayer won't be released with Civ 3 in October.
The gaming community is VERY UPSET. We all are very discouraged to see this lack of concern for the player's interests and the apparent mindset of scrapping everything for your bottom line. We don't like having our interests put on hold for another 8 months and then charged AGAIN for the same product we should have gotten in October.
Many others who weren't even initially angry about the multiplayer decision/rumor are now becoming angry with the delibirate wall of silence you all have crafted around the issue. If you are going to delay it then so be it, but don't hide it from us.
Also there is the question of pre-orders, many people pre-ordered the game with the understanding that Multiplayer would be included as was advertised. Indeed still today Amazon is selling pre-orders with the bullet point mentioning Multiplayer, if you truly have no intention of putting that in, and people who bought that game thinking ther would be MP you could be held accountable by a lawsuit for false advertising.
I HIGHLY recommend you do what you have to do put MP in with the game. If you have to push the game back a month to work on it, so be it, but you are getting very bad PR from all this. You know that word of mouth sells games, and right now thousands of people on here are telling their many thousands of friends that we are being ripped off and not to buy Civ3.
Currently with the disgraceful handling of this by you and/or your publisher I have decided to NOT buy the game I have anticipated for many, many months. I sincerelly hope something happens on your end to convince me to again give you my hard earned money for your product.
-Alex Koroknay-Palicz
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Fallen_Avatar
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Try PBEM...still takes forever...but only a small part of your day.
The main problem MPers here have is not Firaxis' decision...simply that they are taking the coward's approach by not telling us.
Don't worry about the boycott...I already canceled my pre-order.
I don't need another incomplete product without any word from the developers...I already own Ultima 9...bleh...
-Fallen_Avatar
(Ultima 9, CtP II...now Civ. 3?)
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dennis580
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This thread should have been locked by now. I'm tired of hearing a bucnh of fanantical MP's whine.
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Fallen_Avatar
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So, you have no problem with Firaxis/Infogrames lying to the customer?
I'm guessing that if they left off something in the SP game that they promised...and did not tell you until the release, that you would be angry, and 'whining' yourself.
For example...if there was a rumor that diplomacy would be removed...and available later as a patch in four months, you'd be lighting up the message boards as much as we are.
The point is, they may remove something that was promised early on...and worse...do not have the decency to tell us.
If you can honestly tell me that you would not be posting complaints if they were going to secretly remove diplomacy from the SP game...if you can honestly say that...then yeah...you're a better guy then I.
But I'm betting if a major feature you were looking forward to were cut without a warning...that you'd be as mad as I am.
-Fallen_Avatar
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Fallen_Avatar
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Firaxis has not said anything yet, that's the problem.
Since the opening of the official site, they have promised they are working on great new MP features. And honestly, I can wait a few months for them.
My complaint...the one thing that outrages me...is simply that nothing has been said! If there is no delay on MP...let us know that, and we'll happily wait.
If there is a delay on the MP part...don't rush it out unfinished...just have the honest decency to come clean!
I would not be upset with a delay in the MP release...I would be upset if there is a delay and Firaxis does not even have enough respect to tell us about it before the game comes out.
Either way, I wish they would just come clean and tell us the truth.
-Fallen_Avatar
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Dimorier Maximus
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of Apolyton
May 2001
time: 05:15
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I hope that Firaxis will add on to Civ3 like it did to Civ2. Remember Civ2: Conflicts in Civilization and Civ2: Fantastic Worlds?
I am satisfied if Civ3 is first released as SP only; however, I want the first expansion pack to include MP, extra scenarios, and at least 8 more civs, like the Spanish and Incan civilizations, for example.
Firaxis is not Activision, and if enough people buy Civ3 they will make an expansion for it. Activision never made CTP2 MP because not enough people bought it in the first place.
My advice, if you like Civ2, get Civ3. The more copies of Civ3 Firaxis sells, the more likely they are to make an expansion pack for Civ3 that will, of course, include MP.
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09-09-2001 19:23
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