09-09-2001 02:45									#1
	Turnbased in another way? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Hi,

Someone recently had the guts to opt for civ3 as Realtime game. Poll results say enough on this. But what about the following?

On my PC I also have (and even play sometimes) the game RISK II. Maybe you know it.
In here there are 2 ways of turn based playing. The classic one is just like in civ. In your turn you do things. Turn ends and next player plays.

The other way is this: At the beginning of a turn each player sets out a strategy / attack plans for that turn. When all players are finished, the plans are executed. Some extra rules have been made to make this possible. Some battles for instances are considered more important than others, so they're executed first. This may come to unexpected results because at the beginning of the turn you don't know the exact situation when one of your planned attacks is started.

It's not my favorite way of playing (the classic way is more comfortable) but it surely has it's charms. It's different, but still turnbased.

Should this be a nice feature for Civ, besides the standard way of playing?

Grtx

	09-09-2001 03:39									#2
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I think the standard Simultaneous turns are enough for improved speed of a MP game.

	09-09-2001 04:46									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ever played HistoryLine.

That was a very good turnbased WWI game.

Player one would issue movement orders, Player two would issue attack orders; At the end of the turn orders were carried out. Then the roles reversed; Player one issued attack orders, Player two movement orders.

	09-09-2001 04:49									#4
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STOP TRYING TO CHANGE OUR CIV!!!!!

	09-09-2001 07:05									#5
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

theres a rumor goign around that allies can move at the same time in MP (humans only i suppose?).

that could really cut down time, if it is true, and what would happen if you dissolved an alliance DURING a turn?

	09-09-2001 08:24									#6
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Ever played HistoryLine. That was a very good turnbased WWI game.

Crunch,
I've been looking for a good WWI computer game. Can I find this one online?

	09-09-2001 17:52									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos I think the standard Simultaneous turns are enough for improved speed of a MP game.

This talk is new to me. What do you mean by the standard simultaneous turns? The only way I know civ is the way turns are taken one after each other.

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th STOP TRYING TO CHANGE OUR CIV!!!!!

Don't get scared, Nothings gonna be changed. Maybe just added?

	09-09-2001 18:45									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I've been looking for a good WWI computer game. Can I find this one online?

Its an old game but still very playable. I think its freeware now (according to the link) so:

HistoryLine

Note that its German. There is probably an English version kicking around somewhere on another "old games" site. You'll just have to have a look around.

	09-09-2001 18:47									#9
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quote: Originally posted by tuckson This talk is new to me. What do you mean by the standard simultaneous turns? The only way I know civ is the way turns are taken one after each other.

In both CivNet and Civ2MGE there was an ability to play simultaneously. In CivNet it was available from start, and in Civ2 one had to make a mod in civ.ini.
When played Simultaneous all players and AIs moved at the same time. The only problems with this is that a unit could move away just as you were up to attack it (if that player was faster to get to that unit then you were to get to the one to attack with).

	09-09-2001 20:29									#10
	Re: Turnbased in another way? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by tuckson At the beginning of a turn each player sets out a strategy / attack plans for that turn. When all players are finished, the plans are executed.

Yes, this is called Turn Based, Simultaneous Execution. I wrote a small description on this back in April which you can find on www.rjcyberware.com, the home of Manifest Destiny. It was also discussed here on Apolython in the following thread: http://apolyton.net/forums/Forum6/HTML/002555.html

This form of turn based play is a well-proven and extremely useful way of dealing with multiplayer, as it drastically cuts down on waiting time (simultaneous planning). It even means the game can be played off-line, ie. players not needing to be online at the same time, and it prevents cheating by reloading.

Sadly however we'll never see this system in the Civilization series, not even as an option. Firaxis is much too conservative to try this out

	10-09-2001 00:14									#11
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Hmmm... I got CIVMGE, but never heard of this SE thing. To me it just looks like a fine way to overcome the difiiculties of playing MP in a turnbased game.

Any experiences on how this worked in CIV2? (I'll read the thread and the article too, but now from the first hand...?)

Grtx,

	10-09-2001 00:43									#12
	Re: Turnbased in another way? Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by tuckson Hi, Someone recently had the guts to opt for civ3 as Realtime game. Poll results say enough on this. But what about the following? On my PC I also have (and even play sometimes) the game RISK II. Maybe you know it. In here there are 2 ways of turn based playing. The classic one is just like in civ. In your turn you do things. Turn ends and next player plays. The other way is this: At the beginning of a turn each player sets out a strategy / attack plans for that turn. When all players are finished, the plans are executed. Some extra rules have been made to make this possible. Some battles for instances are considered more important than others, so they're executed first. This may come to unexpected results because at the beginning of the turn you don't know the exact situation when one of your planned attacks is started. It's not my favorite way of playing (the classic way is more comfortable) but it sur++++has it's charms. It's different, but still turnbased. Should this be a nice feature for Civ, besides the standard way of playing? Grtx

check out shogun:total war. ITs just come out a new edition (warlord edition) but the originals still available if u want. the map is turn-based-simultaneus-execution but the battles are realtime, with each unit representing sixty people on the map, but with each person fighting individually on the battlefield (grouped in units of course)
its one of the best games ive ever played, and it comes VERY highly recommended, winning several awards.

http://www.totalwar.com

	10-09-2001 01:47									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by tuckson To me it just looks like a fine way to overcome the difiiculties of playing MP in a turnbased game.

Little puzzled why you're using the word "just". That's like saying "laws are just made to uphold order in society". But you're right, it is a way to overcome known problems with turnbased multiplayer.

quote: Any experiences on how this worked in CIV2?

CIV2 was not TBSE - it was simply simultaneous movement like CivNet. If Civ2 were TBSE all players would PLAN where each unit should move the next turn, NOT MOVE them about manually. So you would select a unit, click where you want it to move, and send these orders to a central host. There all orders would be executed at the same time, and the result would be sent to you, ready for new orders. There'd be no more tapping the numeric keyboard to move pieces about. Trust me it works perfectly

	10-09-2001 10:06									#14
	Re: Re: Turnbased in another way? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by dainbramaged13 check out shogun:total war. ITs just come out a new edition (warlord edition) but the originals still available if u want. the map is turn-based-simultaneus-execution but the battles are realtime, with each unit representing sixty people on the map, but with each person fighting individually on the battlefield (grouped in units of course) its one of the best games ive ever played, and it comes VERY highly recommended, winning several awards. http://www.totalwar.com

Hurm. It has no replay value. Once you win with each faction once, the game is done. Not really worth the price IMO.

	10-09-2001 17:48									#15
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Sabre2th,

quote: STOP TRYING TO CHANGE OUR CIV!!!!!

I agree with simultaneous turns as an option. I've played Civ since Civ 1 so I know what I like My wife and I ejoy playing CTP2 but the multiplayer is too unstable so we play AoE2 AOK for that (real-time though). I'd really love to see simultaneous turns in MP.

I hear Empire Earth is supposedly looking really nice. It is real-time and 3D though.

	10-09-2001 18:47									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Dire Wolf Sabre2th, I agree with simultaneous turns as an option. I've played Civ since Civ 1 so I know what I like

It's difficult to build a program that can work well enough in two mode: (TBS and RTS, TBS and STE, etc.).

Simultaneous Turn Execution is not a minor change in game engine: it needs an AI that use better strategy, it must manage some more "collision" events and priority in orders.

OTOH, the human player must use smarter tactics: no way to make an easy rush to a building wonder or a max attack against a territory without the defender possibility to counterattack into the same turn.

I can't believe that Firaxis is trying to make a completely different Civ III MP, at least not on a model so smart as Simultaneous Turn Execution.

I'm afraid they are trying to patch a way to manage Diplomatic actions: they are now at the core of CivIII (trade, militar agreement, complex alliance).
You can't left an AI to take your seat during diplomatic moment in MP against others human players: in Civ 3 it'll probably mess up the game so bad that you will reset next turn

It was mentioned in CTP II as a death limit against PBEM, IIRC: "no great diplomacy, no game".

	10-09-2001 19:48									#17
	Increase the size of your Attachments

We will have Simultaneous and timed turns.
See the post bellow by Jeff.

quote: Originally posted by Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS Timed turns and simultaneous moves will be a part of multiplayer, but in reality it doesn't significantly reduce play time (at best ~15%). Often MP games take longer anyways because of having to coordinate multiple play sessions with multiple people, not to mention disconnects and restarts. For the average customer winning a solo civ3 game by space race, on default settings, can't really happen in one sitting. MP is the same way. We've got a pretty different approach to simul-move, and features like alliance simultaneous moves will reduce game time even more. The SMAC favorite of dynamically increasing turn timers will be present as well. While these areas of MP aren't being ignored, most new stuff will be in turn based. Civ3 is a turn based game at it's heart, and we believe it can be a great internet game without ignoring or sidestepping that fact. Jeff

	10-09-2001 20:00									#18
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Where did you get that quote from (what thread?).

Joel

	10-09-2001 20:15									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith It's difficult to build a program that can work well enough in two mode: (TBS and RTS, TBS and STE, etc.). Simultaneous Turn Execution is not a minor change in game engine: it needs an AI that use better strategy, it must manage some more "collision" events and priority in orders.

You're absolutely correct. I wager you've already played a game using Simultaneous Execution - you certainly seen to understand the concept to perfection. I've met many people how belive TBSE is the same as RTS(!), which is utterly wrong.

quote: OTOH, the human player must use smarter tactics: no way to make an easy rush to a building wonder or a max attack against a territory without the defender possibility to counterattack into the same turn.

Correct again. Which is why this model is more "fair" - you wont loose a battle or even a whole war simply because player A moved before you did.

quote: I can't believe that Firaxis is trying to make a completely different Civ III MP, at least not on a model so smart as Simultaneous Turn Execution.

Certainly not. As long as noone's complaining why would they consider changing a best-seller. I think the important thing is that people know there are better alternatives to the MP model used by Civ.

quote: You can't left an AI to take your seat during diplomatic moment in MP against others human players

Good Heavens no!!

	10-09-2001 20:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Dire Wolf Where did you get that quote from (what thread?). Joel

There is a link to the original post in the top of the quote. The thread is Timed Turn Civ III Multiplayer.

	10-09-2001 20:23									#21
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Obviously, adding simultaneous turns is not a trivial task - no one claimed that it is. Still, it is not unreasonable to have two modes: strict turn based and simultaneous turns. It is a matter of how well the application has been segemented into modules and how well module interdependencies have been minimized. This is where OOD comes into play. While it would require good planning and design, it is not an unattainable goal.

Joel