05-04-2001 01:56									#1
	A poll: do you accept caravan rehoming? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I think it's time for us to determine this. I find this trick very controversal. Surely it isn't what the designers had ment. The popup message says it so clearly if you try to 'h' a caravan: "You can't change the home town of a trade unit" (or something like that). However you can "support from this town" using city command menu. If only they would have fixed this (in one way or another) we wouldn't be here discussing this.

As it has been said before, it doesn't matter what tricks you do when playing SP and not posting logs here. But what if we are competing here e.g. who lands on AC the earliest? After reading Solo's log of his new landing recod, he tells us that caravan rehoming was a major part of his strategy. I'm not saying this is a problem at all. After all, we are playing a game here and the main point of it is to have fun! Solo actually told us that he had fun changing home town of his caravans "doing a sneaky thing". Competition with other humans is a part of that fun and for the competition to be fair we absolutely need to have the same rules, don't you think?

After all, there are many other "sneaky" things we do and get kicks of it. All commonly accepted. Like incremental rushbuilding, ship chaining and have a city hill square mined before building on it. All those things are in similar category of caravan rehoming: not intended by the developers! So I conclude that this mysterical argument of "designer intention" can't be used as a rule when judging these kind of matters. We must make the rules ourselves and this is exactly what we have done in the past. IMHO it's now time to try getting an agreement on this matter.

So my vote here is: let's accept caravan rehoming! I also like the sneaky nature of that practise..
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Addition per 9.4.2001: Just to clarify things: I've changed my mind since I wrote this post. I've explained it down to the thread. My main point is that the poor AI is already handicapped against an experienced human player and rehoming only makes the situation worse. Finally, the AI is puny making good trade routes and certainly can't rehome HIS caravans!
[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 09, 2001).]

	05-04-2001 04:18									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

no to caravan rehoming..... but i love repeated comodities to the capital go hides go !!!! No wonder Canada is such a great place to live and were so rich..... it was all those fur traders

	05-04-2001 04:57									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

No problem with this in MP... you can't do it

	05-04-2001 09:26									#4
	Remove this text

I'm tired of arguing about the "intent of the designers". Where is the patch where they tried to fix this stuff? Civ 3 will be coming out before too much longer. Maybe then, we'll find some of these things fixed. But how much do you want to bet half of them still won't be? We have a game full of holes, and I usually just shrug and drive through them. If people want to rehome caravans, I say let them.

BTW, do you have a vested interest in this permission, Marko?

	05-04-2001 11:47									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It is a good topic for discussion and one that I was considering raising myself.

Solo was honest to tell us about rehoming freights and shared with everybody some of the interesting strategies he used in his epic game. Without taking anything away from his achievement, I am a NO vote for rehoming caravans.

If people do post records they should make it clear (like Solo did) if they have rehomed caravans. I don't see any problem in having two sets of records, one for those that do and another for those that don't!


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SG(2)

	05-04-2001 11:58									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It was a 2nd attempt so "official" record status is not a consideration.Dam impressive though.Seems like the big speeder upper was free cities early.Saved tons'o'turns not having to build so many settlers.

I don't know.
No in MP(unless you are way behind )
Do whatever you want in solo games.

I guess there should be some standards.Arii used food caravans and re-homing IIRC.

	05-04-2001 13:09									#7
	Suffering from ads?

Once upon a time (a very long time ago, I'm afraid) I was a young boy and lived and studied in Bordeaux. I happened to travel to Genève (Geneva) in Switzerland and bought chocolate (swiss chocolate has always had a very high reputation in France). I unwrapped it and found it delicious. Then I had a look at the wrapping paper: "Tobler, la qualité suisse du chocolat français"
(Tobler, swiss quality for french chocolate; made in Bordeaux ).

Wasn't that rehoming?
IMO we are living in a world economy and thousands of products are rehomed every minute all around the world.
I don't know what the genious who designed this game had in mind, but I state that rehoming is absolutely realistic, and I use it and abuse it when playing civ (alas not with results quite as impressive as those achieved by arii and solo ).

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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

	05-04-2001 13:52									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

SINGLE PLAYER

Pro (2 - 14)
Gastrifitis
Rah "but must state you did it when you brag about it"

Against
Ming
Marko Polo "No in regular SP, but yes when shooting records and telling the others"
War4ever
Scouse Gits(2)
SG[1]
East Street Trader
DaveV
Marquis de Sodaq
Hasdrubal
Blaupanzer
Deity Dude
Boney
Solo
La Fayette

Don't know
Smash


MULTIPLAYER

Pro (0 - 14)

Against
Ming
Marko Polo
War4ever
Scouse Gits(2)
Smash
SG[1]
East Street Trader
DaveV
Rah
Marquis de Sodaq
Hasdrubal
Blaupanzer
Deity Dude
Boney

No comment/Don't know
Gastrifitis
La Fayette

Please correct me if interpreted your answer wrong. I'll edit this post when we get more votes!

Also, if you happen to change your mind (like I did) please let me know!
[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 09, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 09, 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Marko Polo (edited April 10, 2001).]

	05-04-2001 15:01									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I do it - but it adds yet another layer of nanomanagement upon a game that I prefer to play in a cavalier fashion. For me the game would be 'better' without this feature (so why do I not deny it to myself? Guess I'm just weak) ... after all this prevarication -- I follow General de Gaulle, "Non!" -- sorry LaFayette

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	05-04-2001 16:39									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I'm a no.

	05-04-2001 16:59									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Another "no" vote. Trade is powerful enough already. I say this one is like the airfield cheat; a clear programming mistake that should have been patched.

	05-04-2001 18:00									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

MP.......No
SP.......Whatever, but must state you did it when you brag about it.

	05-04-2001 19:09									#14
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Take into consideration what CivII is trying to duplicate. In reality, La Fayette has a good point - trade routes were historically incremental, altho the goods themselves moved tremendous distances. Silk from Shanghai was traded for jade from Samarkand; they traded the silk to Bokhara for pottery; they traded it to Susa for gems; they traded it to Baghdad for grain; they traded it to Byblos for timber; they traded it to Venice for tortellini.

Do we limit trade to a silk-tortellini route between Shanghai and Venice? Shanghai produced it, they should benefit from it. Rehoming prevents the origin city from benefitting from the trade, altho its civ does benefit. This would be inappropriate for despotism, republic, and democracy. Under a centralized government (monarchy, commie, fun), all gold ends up where the rulers want it, anyway. I think rehoming is acceptable under these gov'ts.

I vote NO. I'm one of those silly people who play an aesthetic game, not necessarily to win. Stick with how it really happens...

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

	05-04-2001 19:20									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

One more no. It is clearly another unintended feature, making the game easier for the human player yet again.

	05-04-2001 19:34									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I also vote no. This is a case actually addressed in the game, which informs you you can't do it (when on main map). The fact that there is a way around that does not abrogate that rule. Secondly, the trade represents a stream of goods. Gold from Paris can't be suddenly cause a gold mine to appear in Marseilles just because of rehoming. Sid says in a recent interview in CGW that Civ III will revisit trade. The cities will trade in the commodities inside their radii, it appears.

	05-04-2001 20:26									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

NO

	06-04-2001 09:28									#18
	Increase Your PM Length

La Fayette - there is a definite difference between the two cases - no end of Apolyton polls will make a black face cost 6 or 8 luxuries to become happy - it would make for a fun game if this were the case - not least an absolute limit to the size of a stable Monarchy for example! This 'feature' is not one I 'use' - I just do whatever it takes to keep my (rather large) empire fairly content ...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	06-04-2001 08:24									#19
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

For what it is worth I also say NO for both. But I do think that solo games should be fun and if they are not then you should give up, and if cheating enhances your fun and leaves you with a clear conscience, so be it.

	06-04-2001 17:49									#21
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

May I ask ONE question?
Doesn't any of you rehome settlers or military units (for example build them in a city with barracks and station them where needed)?
I do that all the time (and I suppose anyone does).
Why should that be allowed for ANY unit except caravan?

I wouldn't like to appear to be stubborn or unable to listen to what the others say, but frankly I don't understand:
this feature (rehoming) is common practice in modern economy (and in fact has always been, as 'le Marquis de Sodaq' just explained).
this feature (rehoming) is allowed for ANY unit in this game with help of the same button 'support from this city'.
Why should it be forbidden for ONE unit named caravan?


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aux bords mystérieux du monde occidental

	06-04-2001 17:54									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Because when you try to rehome a caravan you get a message saying you can't do it. So obviously it was the designers intent to not allow you to do it. The programmers just forgot that there was another way to do it, hence the discussion here.

RAH

	06-04-2001 18:08									#23
	Get a bigger avatar today!

La Fayette - the rationale behind caravans (realistic or not is a separate debate) is that they represent a limited supply of goods traveling between cities. The value of the goods is higher when they come from a more productive (= higher trade) city. So, rushbuilding twenty caravans in size-3 cities, rehoming them to your SSC and vastly increasing their trade value is counter to the game's built-in limitations on trade.

To answer your question more directly: caravans/freights are unique units, representing trade goods rather than a military force. As such, they have a unique source, which helps determine their value.

Edit: I agree that the black to light blue conversion is a bug. It is embedded in the game, however, and the only way to avoid exploiting it at Deity is to limit the number of cities. I've played an MP game with a limit of 12 cities, and it was interesting, but artificial. Caravan rehoming is much easier to prevent, and much less artificial IMHO.
[This message has been edited by DaveV (edited April 06, 2001).]

	07-04-2001 00:05									#27
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

La Fayette has stated that he is not an MP warrior elsewhere in the forum. H also hasn't claimed to set any records that I've seen. These rules things only really matter in those contexts.

Most of us rehome units by pressing the "h" key when we get the unit to its new city. That is what generates the message saying this is forbidden for caravans.

The value of caravans is twofold. One is the immediate bonus, and for that La Fayette's reasoning makes as much sense as that of those who disagree with him. However, caravan/freights also start a stream of gold between the two cities based on the commodities available there. In that context, rehoming makes no sense, since the game's logic has said the flow of goods is available from the original city, not the rehomed one.

	07-04-2001 00:37									#28
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I think our friend LaFayette is somewhat embattled here - I'm put in mind of a similar, but far less heated discussion recently about the airbase 'cheat' -- one which I use extensively in the rare games that are still going by the advent of Radio -- here it was I that was in the minority of one - and very glad that the debate did not reach the temperature that this one is attaining.
For MP and succession games I guess some 'standard' would be of general benefit, but otherwise - why bother? solo's achievement is no less remarkable just because it was aided by a particular 'strategy', if LaFayette chooses to try and beat it (using the same strategy) more strength to his right arm -- personally I think that the map was known lent a greater advantage than any ammount of rehoming - but I have yet to land before 1500...

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Scouse Git[1] -- git1@scousers.net

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven

	07-04-2001 00:40									#29
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

La Fayette
My post was not meant as a jab or an insult. When we started playing MP we rehomed. We kept doing it until during a discussion among the group we played with decided to not allow it in future games.

The only reason I posted was to state that the "can't do" message was an indication that the designers had considered it and decided not to allow it. (in reference to your comment on why any unit but that one)

I pass no judgement. We stopped but in some SP games I'll do it. (unless I going for a challange score to post, where it has been forbidden)

I'm am surprised (I guess I shouldn't be) that you never tried homing it through the drop down menues). Whenever I make assumptions, that happens.

RAH

	07-04-2001 08:31									#30
	Get a bigger avatar today!

If you are solo and having fun, do what you want.