11-09-2001 10:11									#1
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What's the best kinda race?

Add Race generation+ship idea here...

	16-09-2001 19:07									#2
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Truly, it's not only the "best race", it's also the best strats+unbeatable ships shared on many other forums in the past ( and you can find some in the MoO2 section on the recent MoO3 site )... déja vu , but why not sharing it here at Apolyton.

The government choice in MoO2 is crucial and affects more your gameplay style than the vast majority of other Empire-building games.
For a hybrid builder, Unification is the obvious choice for a faster expansion. Democracy is of course highly enjoyable; but Dictatorship ( slower expansion at the beginning ) is hard to tag along in my advanced games. Feudal may be the ideal choice for some warlords playing on tinier maps, it's just I can't stand the -50% research - a real @#*?@shh.
My favorite settings ( not all games ):

Hard/Impossible, huge map ( hey, it's gonna be a small one in MoO3), Unification, creative, +1 research OR rich HW, -10 spy, -10 Ground combat.

ship= before mid-game, interceptors are helpful. Later on I mostly invest on Hv beams.
favorite specials aside Battle pods: Heavy Armor, Reinforced hull, TIME WARP FACILITATOR.
a good Doom Star: 6 specials are sufficient i.e. Battle pods, heavy armor, reinforced hull, ECM jammer *, inertial stabilizer*, TIME WARP FACILITATOR. Weapons: 1 stellar converter, some Hv Death rays, some ECCM-FAST missles, only 1 bomb. OR you can make ONLY Hv plasma cannons ( enveloping ) for at least the same amount of damage done if not MORE, but imagine 40-45 ones in each Doom Star : the battle turns are too long.

*: their superior upgrades are great but with an already high defense, save the amount of space for weapons.

	17-09-2001 01:53									#3
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Fighters are useless.

C'mon! Mirv Missiles are ~much~ better, and later in the game Beam attacks are so staggering that a dozen PD guns will kill a dozen missiles.

	17-09-2001 06:31									#4
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Favourite custom race (pre-patch) picks are; creative (a must IMO), cybernetic, omniscient and telepathic.
Penalties; Growth 50% (this one hurts), ground combat (with telepathy you hardly ever need ground forces) and spying (penalties offset by telepathy anway).
For the "mutation" (?) science pick later in the game I generally take warlike (double cp).

Favourite tactic is to try and capture (via transporters) and reverse-engineer antaran ships. Nothing beats that shield damper on a large ship with enhanced structure/armour and auto-repair (+ cybernetic).
Who needs shields?

	17-09-2001 16:01									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Like2frolick Fighters are useless. C'mon! Mirv Missiles are ~much~ better, and later in the game Beam attacks are so staggering that a dozen PD guns will kill a dozen missiles.

For the fighters, they make a lot more damage against ANY opponent than any other weapon ( beams and missles are weak befor plasma cannon and pulson ) in the first half; as I said in my post I don't use them in the second half - then they are useless.

AS for your second statement, I completely disagree but hey - we each have a distinct gameplay style and MoO2 offer a lot of diversity for that. PD ability is strong, but I always found the AI very weak when using its missles. My other Hv enveloping beams are generally ( 90% of battles ) sufficient to eradicate an enemy fleet BEFORE its missles can reach me in the last combat turn.

	18-09-2001 06:37									#6
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Try this:
Start out, get as much missile tech as you can, until you can put Mirv Nuke's on things.

Build several destroyers/frigates, with nothing BUT Mirving Nukes.

Destroy everyone in the immediate area.

Fighters: Have no shields, and take four times longer to do a similar amount of damage.

Generally speaking, early in the game, missiles are the king, middle: Beams, late: Beams

Mirv Nukes
Nuke Damage: 8(every missile does 8 damage)
MIRV: 2x cost, 4X damage
Damage per nuke: 32 damage/nuke

Generally, you can stuff 2 nukes on a frigate(with Battle-pods)
Or six-seven nukes on a destroyer

Frigate: 64 damage
Destroyer:192 damage per rack

Build a half dozen, and you can wipe out any new fleet.

Now..on the other hand

Interceptors: Space:25, (doesn't go down)
4 PD Beams(at this stage, lasers, or Mass drivers)
(Laser damage) 1-2
MD Damage: 3

Assuming you're using MDs, and don't have lasers(unlikely...)
12 damage, for all four fighters, if they get through. That's not bad.

Over the four rounds(assuming they're not destroyed)
48 damage.

Pretty good...BUT: A single Frigate can do 64 damage in one round...and 128 in 2.

Add in the fact that you're less likely to be shot down.....



Now, if Fighters used shields, or armor....then maybe I could say it was useful. However, in comparison to such things as mirv-nukes, they're outmatched.

Go ahead...try it out.



And, there's no doubt that, in the endgame, when you have Beam abilities of 100+, and shield-piercing phasors, or heavy Plasma Cannons, that you can smash your opponent ~well~ before he can harm you.

	19-09-2001 06:13									#7
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i agree with you Like2frolick, I ended up using this strategy after countless hours of playing because it works.

	19-09-2001 16:50									#8
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On MOO2 at first (when creating a race) I always wanted a creative race. But IMO the result was always a boring game, getting all the techs isn't that great. Usually I now play with something like this:
Subterranean, Unification, -10 spying, -10 ground combat, -20 ship defence and +50 ship offense (+/- something extra). Sometimes even uncreative, which gives some challenge, but in that case it's good to have charismatic also.

	21-09-2001 19:54									#9
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I find the ship differences interesting.

I am a beam man myself.

My first warship is usually a cruiser with
2 HV AP, CO, AF, NR lasers
4 PD AF, CO lasers

battle pods, battle scanner, heavy armor(or reinforced hull, if I don't have HA)

I then find any AI who doesn't have planetary defense buildings and take em out. I usually like taking telepathic, so it's easy. If I have to I will build a destroyer with mirv nukes, but I only do that if I really want to take someone out and they have missile bases and fighter garrisons. I use lasers until phasers or plasma cannons (unless I happen to get graviton beam). I have been able to conquer a huge galaxy on hard while still using lasers.

My later designs are similar. For larger ships and later cruisers I add a third weapon which is normal mount and is used for shooting down fighters and missiles with more power so the fleet can support eachother better.

	21-09-2001 21:05									#10
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yo, man, a "NON-MIRVIC missle addict" like me!

For newcomers passing by, you'll find also some other killing strats on "shining, spying, cheating" thread where many posters have decided to share their settings there, but it should have been here instead.

	26-09-2001 02:16									#11
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I only ever choose Creative if I'm playing on Impossible difficulty. It's just too easy to win otherwise.

Other than that, I usually get a 2 food production bonus. It helps immensely to only need half as many guys farming. Quite unrealistic, really. On an industrialized planet, you're not going to have more than a few percent of the population working on farms.

Subterranean/Large Homeworld also gives you a boost in the beginning.

--
Jared Lessl

	28-09-2001 08:43									#12
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Yeah, the Creative ability is a killer attritute, and any race that doesn't have will be FUBAR quickly.

	29-09-2001 01:53									#13
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Creative is ~okay~.....

But...well. ::Shrug:: I personally prefer Subterraneon. I can choose the most important tech's for myself, and steal/capture/demand/exchange the rest.

Although it's not FULL proof...as long as you have the important research/production techs, weapon tech's become less important, against the AI.

Trade Weapons for Nice, fun techs!

And Build Capture ships, and steal anything your opponent uses against you.,

	29-09-2001 14:47									#14
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I'm not sure about my favorite 'custom mix', but most of mine include subterranean and aquatic. Aquatic treats terran and water worlds as gaia class (in term of both food production and pop limit), and swamp and tundra as terran (again, as above). Consider what that food bonus does for early colonization efforts, and the pop boost does for later development efforts...add in the pop bonus of sub, and...

BTW, I usually 'pay' for these by taking all the negative combat mods, and either the negative spy mod or the farming hit, depending on what else I loaded on the race.

	29-09-2001 15:15									#15
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Some of my thoughts on ship design can be found here:
http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=12563

	02-10-2001 06:45									#16
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MM. Your last post in that thread states that the damper field blocks both death rays and neutron blasters. This isn't actually true. Neutron blasters are completely blocked as the damage they inflict, modified by the damper field means that any hit inflicts less than 5 points of damage hence no marine loss. Death rays, however, are still vey effective. Hit an Antaran small/medium ship at reasonably close range with a heavy, or two std death rays and you will see all of the marines onboard wiped out. A boarding action just waiting to happen.

Also, I've never noticed any problem with damper fields messing up transporters? They don't really seem too effective (unless target is death-rayed first ) but I always attributed that to the superiority of the Antarans ground forces over my own.
Do assault shuttles work that much better?

	02-10-2001 08:23									#17
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I'm fairly certain about the kill negation from dampers and xentronium--let me check my notes...this might take a day.

	02-10-2001 11:47									#18
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Actually, something I forgot to mention. This wasn't using the patch (I like creative for only 6 picks ).

	02-10-2001 20:19									#19
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Nothing can negates a Hv plasma cannon, nothing. it's 3 times cheaper than a Death Ray, AND more powerful at close range. The AI can't stand the enveloping ability even equipped with Damper Field at the end of a game. It doesn't block completely a Death Ray also. But it is a very powerful defense to have on the larger hulls, many times better than the shields - and at a cheesy low space cost. That will be tampered otherwise in MoO3 believe me.

	03-10-2001 06:45									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Master Marcus Nothing can negates a Hv plasma cannon, nothing.

\

Agreed. Its just such a shame that ground batteries/battlestations get rid of their plasma guns after disruptors are researched. Planetary defenses go from virtually invulnerable to weak as a kitten in one fell swoop.
I've also found that std plasma guns are devastating against missile volleys (assuming I don't just target an enemy ship hoping for a core breach ). Target a 5 missile volley and its gone with only a gun or two fired. Anyone know why this is? Something to do with the enveloping effect I'm guessing.

	03-10-2001 09:23									#21
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Alrighty--on the damper field front, the description says that 'transported' troops have a 50% chance of dying passing through the damper. I don't know if this is in the same sense that missles have a 50% chance of destruction passing through a lightning field (it always appeared to have a higher kill ratio in my games), but I remember looking at the boarding screen and noting that I started off with 25% of the troops I sent. I have to dig up an old game and invade antares, just to be sure.

I think I was mistaken on xentronium--although it did have some special feature. Maybe nullification of the 'armor piercing' abilities of certain weapons?

	03-10-2001 19:52									#22
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With the patch:

Damper Field negates the special killing effect of Death Rays. Normal marine deaths due to damage still applies

Transporters have only 25% chance to succeed when transporting through a damper field. Expect 75% casualties. This is why I always use assault shuttles.

Xentronium armor negates armor piercing capabilities of weapons. Sometimes it is better to have a double hull instead of double armor.

	08-10-2001 06:36									#23
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Thanks for the confirmation, pchang!

Right now, I'm playing something a bit different than my usual:

Cybernetic, +2 industry, Subterranean, Charismatic, -10 (ship offense, ship defense, ground combat, and spying), and Poor Homeworld.

Note that leaves an extra point--which is used, along with the four from evolutionary mutation, to acquire Aquatic.

I spawned in a five planet system, including a rich, heavy gravity water world and only one gas giant. I love 5 planet systems.

First race I ran into was the Silicoids--I hate that. Fortunately, the nearest Silicoid world was promptly over-run. By the Darloks--I hate that. I also soon discovered repulsive Sakkra to the left and pacifist Psilons to the right . The Darloks proved to not only be non-repulsive (surpise, surprise), but amiable tech-trading partners. Between trading with them and leaning on the Psilons, I didn't really miss creative at all. Since I was shooting for the mutation fairly early on, I had several high-lvel techs in a field nobody else was hitting (lots of good trades).

Anyway, this is a fun 'build', and a nice change of pace.

	10-10-2001 00:07									#24
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If you want to get _really_ high scores, then here's the race you design. Play as Lithovore, then when you get Evolutionary Mutation, switch over to Cybernetic. You end up with 10 leftover picks, which basically doubles your score. Got 6000 points on an Impossible map that way. Cheap, yes, but effective.

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Jared Lessl

	10-10-2001 03:13									#25
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In my games, I expand very quickly and get a huge tech lead. If I am not creative, I miss a lot of techs. This is because there is no one at my level to trade with.

BTW, I have never tried capturing the Orion Guardian. I think you can't. Can anyone confirm this?

	10-10-2001 05:07									#26
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As I recall, the Guardian is considered a monster, like the Eel, so you can't board it. Pity.

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Jared Lessl

	10-10-2001 15:44									#27
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I can confirm that the Guardian is unboardable.

I can also confirm that the Antaran homeworld is unraidable--conquer, yes, capture ships and leave with them, no.

It was a fun attempt...

	10-10-2001 21:49									#28
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quote: Originally posted by The Mad Monk I can confirm that the Guardian is unboardable. I can also confirm that the Antaran homeworld is unraidable--conquer, yes, capture ships and leave with them, no. It was a fun attempt...

You only get to keep captured ships if you win the battle. If you win at Antares, the game is over.

	11-10-2001 07:23									#29
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I know...I was trying a workaround that didn't quite 'work around'.

I took a 'telepathic' pick, which allows immediate use of captured ships, on the theory that if I warped captured ships out of there long before my other ships left, I should get to keep them.

I remember it woking with non-Antarans; at least, I don't think I would have made the attempt without testing it on 'lesser' races first...it was quite a while ago...

In any case, it didn't work...

	26-10-2001 19:08									#30
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People seem to like heavy-duty defensive systems on their ships. But I found that (at least in end-game) a much better tactic was just making the ships fast (hard to hit) and then using the extra space for more weapons. You then get first shot.

Doing that I was comfortably destroying fleets 3-5 times my size. (I did have a slight edge in tech)