23-09-2001 05:56									#151
	Tired of ads?

All I can say is, I don't think MP is exactly a top priority for either the developers or players of the game.

	23-09-2001 05:59									#152
	Increase the size of your Attachments

You just cannot have a game in the 21st century like civ3 without a multiplayer mode. Period.

"But they want to release SP, everyone wants it anyway!" Not true. Most people, especially after MPGE, want to be able to play other people in a TBS game. Even if the statistics went your way, you miss a basic point: if Firaxis rushes the game for the holidays, what other things were 'omitted'?

We've heard nothing about the AI other than random PR garbage. Nothing about multiplayer, other than it'll be 'good'. But we have heard about a Limited Edition, a blatant insult to consumers, proudly declaring that gameplay in civ3 is not important, and the company would rather produce large reflective tin cans to house the CD in than a very vital play mode.

"It'll be downloadable later!" I doubt it. MPGE wasn't a download. And even if civ3 becomes multi-enabled further on, I have my doubts about how effective the mode would be. After all, once you buy civ3, your transaction is over - Firaxis' kindness is all that you have to go on.

It has to be out by October. Some cuts have to be made. But as a consumer, you have to admit and realize this. Anything else is blind optimism. Hey, it's your $50.

	23-09-2001 05:59									#153
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Isaac: how can you know?

	23-09-2001 06:03									#154
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Wiglaf: If you don't plan to spend your fifty bucks on it, why do you continually post to this forum? It doesn't make any sense.

DanS: How do you know?

	23-09-2001 06:11									#155
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'm sure Wiglaf cares about the game. Even enough to withhold his $50 until it is a complete game.

	23-09-2001 06:19									#156
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Well, if thats true, wiglaf: Enjoy your wait.

	23-09-2001 16:21									#157
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

money is very hard to come by. throwing it away on a game that is, to me, 50% complete on the assumption of a patch later on is not a very sound plan. Add that to the fact that the existing half might also be rushed in terms of AI and civilization balance, I think I will enjoy the wait. Needless to say, 'friendly' companies have cheated me before, and I've always fallen for it the next time I had the chance to. Civ3 is tempting, but no, sorry. Earlier in this thread you said Firaxis has to earn their money. So do I.

by your last post, you make it clear you want a good civ3 and no wait to go along with it. Sorry to say, but that just isn't possible. I really want this game to be good, but I'm trying to point out it needs some work. That's all, it's not like I bash Firaxis for a living.

quote: Wiglaf: If you don't plan to spend your fifty bucks on it, why do you continually post to this forum? It doesn't make any sense.

So the only people who can post here are the people who have preordered civ3 or will in the near future, regardless of the product's quality?

quote: I'm sure Wiglaf cares about the game. Even enough to withhold his $50 until it is a complete game.

	23-09-2001 18:29									#158
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf You just cannot have a game in the 21st century like civ3 without a multiplayer mode. Period.

Some posts we've been reading about MP are absurd, imho. You just cannot not have a game like civ3 in the 21st century. Period. The MP feature is nice, addictive, but a feature. If civ3 had been announced in early 2001 as not supportive of MP, you'd all be quiet about this and would post here asking for a MP patch or ad-on. So now you just have to go through a terrible ordeal, which is to practice for a few months on a great and innovative SP game, and get the patch or ad-on later. I fail to comprehend why some people are praying for Firaxis to delay release for half a year, so they can post here "I told you so!!!" and we can all have 6 moooore months of speculating and criticizing about what nobody has even SEEN so far, so that people who won't even use MP mode at all are forced to wait for it. Disturbing at the least.

quote: (...) if Firaxis rushes the game for the holidays, what other things were 'omitted'?

Rushed? It has been delayed half a month from the original date, and they didn't think of it this August "hey what if we made civ3 this year and sell it by Xmas". The release date is not more important than the time/resources actually spent working on the game.
Omitted? I'd be far more worried about 'omitted' things if MP mode WAS in right now, because it would take resources that are important for the consolidation and polishing of the SP mode, which is the backbone of the whole game, and would affect both SP and MP negatively.

quote: We've heard nothing about the AI (...). Anything else is blind optimism. Hey, it's your $50.

"Blind optimism"... Well, you sound just like the right person to talk about optimism. Nobody knows anything about the game. In your own words, "We've heard nothing about the AI", so you automatically assume that it will be weak. I believe this is called "blind pessimism".

But hey, while you wait until March-May next year (that's 5-7 months after release) with $50 in your pocket, those of us who will buy the game next month will keep you posted on how much fun we've been having (or not) with it for the past months.

	23-09-2001 18:47									#159
	Tired of ads?

quote: Rushed? It has been delayed half a month from the original date, and they didn't think of it this August "hey what if we made civ3 this year and sell it by Xmas". The release date is not more important than the time/resources actually spent working on the game.

half a month?

20 days is hardly enough time to program anything worthwhile. They're releasing the game too quickly. And since it's holiday season 2001, I think you can fill in the blanks.

quote: Omitted? I'd be far more worried about 'omitted' things if MP mode WAS in right now, because it would take resources that are important for the consolidation and polishing of the SP mode, which is the backbone of the whole game, and would affect both SP and MP negatively.

Push back the deadline to mid 2002. Add in multiplayer. Work on the AI if need be. Further balance the civilizations. Look for bugs. You act like Firaxis has to release their game by October for some reason. Also, what makes you think civ is all about SP? Ever played MP?

My concern is that if Firaxis ran out of time for MP, is it reasonable that they got in the AI, graphics, features to considerable quality and cut off at another play mode? Not really. Whenever a game is released unfinished with a promise that it will eventually be completed, red flags should go off in your head, left and right.

quote: "Blind optimism"... Well, you sound just like the right person to talk about optimism. Nobody knows anything about the game. In your own words, "We've heard nothing about the AI", so you automatically assume that it will be weak. I believe this is called "blind pessimism".

It's common sense, which is different. When you have to go "blind" about something, you shouldn't assume the best. Especially when 50 bucks are on the table.

quote: But hey, while you wait until March-May next year (that's 5-7 months after release) with $50 in your pocket, those of us who will buy the game next month will keep you posted on how much fun we've been having (or not) with it for the past months.

I appreciate it.

	23-09-2001 19:08									#160
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf 20 days is hardly enough time to program anything worthwhile. They're releasing the game too quickly.

Indeed it's not a lot of time. Ever thought it's because they don't need any more to start selling a good game? You talk as if they're working on the game for a couple of months now. Are you in there to know how the game is right now? Well they are.

quote: Push back the deadline to mid 2002. Add in multiplayer.

That's when you're getting multiplayer. You're just going to have to handle the fact that some people are going to play civ3 way before you do.

quote: Work on the AI if need be.

IF. Period.

quote: Ever played MP?

Yes. I like it. I'd rather wait for it with SP on my hands.

quote: When you have to go "blind" about something, you shouldn't assume the best.

True. Nor the worst. And while I'm not excepting the best (not enough info to do so) you seem to expect the worse. Besides, we're not that blind about everything. We know nothing about some important aspects, but we've seen screenshots, units, lots of new game features, culture, options, graphics, etc.. And we've got civ1, civ2 and Sid Meier to remember us that we can expect that they'll do at least well.

	23-09-2001 19:38									#161
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Push back the deadline to mid 2002. Add in multiplayer. Work on the AI if need be. Further balance the civilizations. Look for bugs. You act like Firaxis has to release their game by October for some reason. Also, what makes you think civ is all about SP? Ever played MP?

OK, and then when mid 2002 rolls around they mysteriously never said anything about x. "It's a vital feature!" "What else are the rushing?!?!?" etc. etc.

Here's a what issac brock posted and I think it works nicely here

quote: Well, in that case, I'm sure there is absolutely no defense for missiles, which makes a giant hole in the game, so it shouldn't be released until the after the fifth coming of christ is well past finished. - Isaac Brock

	23-09-2001 19:41									#162
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I have this great fear that no MP also means other elements of the game are going to be cut. And you only have to look to their promotional website to find more changes that require time to balance and find out how they exactly work.

Look at Civ Specific abilities, changed less than six weeks before the game needs to go gold. Now tweaks should be made up until release but if the AI is going to use its unique abilities it would seem that more testing would be required.

As well, golden age reqs seem to have been changed after talk on this board. Something that important again needs time to test and figure out.

I just can't see with these things going on how you can honestly believe that AI and SP gameplay is going to be complete. Two or three months seem needed to finish the game and make it the perfect game that we all want to see.

	23-09-2001 19:54									#163
	Remove this text

Exactly what tniem said.

quote: OK, and then when mid 2002 rolls around they mysteriously never said anything about x. "It's a vital feature!" "What else are the rushing?!?!?" etc. etc.

I'd be much more relaxed, as no holidays factor into the equation, and the game has had the benefit of added development time. Hopefully the AI will be improved to the point we actually hear something about it.

quote: Yes. I like it. I'd rather wait for it with SP on my hands.

you trust firaxis enough? first off, they have to actually release a downloadable MP mode. next, it'd have to be free. third, and most importantly, it'd have to be good. The quality of something that doesn't pay the people who make it....look out.