17-09-2001 01:17									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf more pressure would transmit the message that delaying a response to rack up preorders isn't going over well with the people - the same people they want to look like happy neighbors to.

pressure directed to the wrong people...

quote: Ask the civ team would probably get filtered out. They only read a handful of letters, censored to bits.

so you're saying that firaxis has a filter for MP mails?

	17-09-2001 01:21									#62
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they wish

actually I'm saying that not all letters are read. the actual number that are considered is quite a bit less than the amount sent.

	17-09-2001 07:39									#63
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quote: actually I'm saying that not all letters are read. the actual number that are considered is quite a bit less than the amount sent.

I couldn't agree more with this. Only, what is it, four questions are answered. That is pretty pathetic to tell you the truth. I always thought Firaxis could make more of an attempt to answer questions on the "ask" the civ team and we "will try" to answer your question(s). That is a load of ****, they have answered only one question of mine (a motive behind the answering of the question, though) and I have sent a plethora of questions to Firaxis. Not to mention what do they really need our e-mail addresses for? I have only receive one e-mail from Firaxis saying that the new civ3.com site opened, which was completely useless I should add. All this is beside the point and I'm not too mad by it, either.

quote: ahh, but his recent one was more of a jab at our intelligence.. "email our PR guys". who's he kiddin? If there is a business motive, which there is, I don't think we should heap on the 'he loves us, he really does' praise just yet

Did you even read this? -> "he is not required to do so". Usually one someone goes out of their way to do something for you (regrardless of how it might benefit them) it is appreciated. Plus, Mike is probably not even authorized to release info about MP, yet.

Mike good. Firaxis bad.

	17-09-2001 23:38									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf "Thanks for the reply Mike. Please understand most of us are not mad at you. We just wish that someone from Firaxis would explain MP to us. That is all, just a simple post on your own website." you totally caved in

Well it would be hypocritical of me not to thank a programmer when I have been asking for him to do. Am I happy with his response? No that is why if you continue to read the quote of mine that you put up that I tell him that we are not mad at an individual programmer but the company. I also let him know what would satisfy me. Which is for Dan to simply post on the website one answer or another to the question about MP. Hopefully he can forward that on to his superiors.

I don't think it is caving, it is just recognizing that Mike cannot answer my question. He can however continue to read my posts if that is what he claims to do when he is on ACS.

quote: Our Money ---- Firaxis ---- Mike > programmers Our Money XXX Firaxis = Our Money XXX Mike > programmers

So I understand that you believe that if Civ 3 does poorly that you think Mike will be out of a job. Well that seems like a silly position to take when you figure there are a ton of companies out there that would love to add experienced programmers. As Markos already said all those on Activision's team found new employment.

The other thing to understand is that Firaxis has another game in the works - SM's Sim Golf. If it does well than why would Mike care? He is already being paid by what Infogrames has given for developement of the game. And if one of the games does well I can guarantee that Firaxis will live to make some more games. So his job is probably pretty darn safe.

quote: so why are we all saying "thank you"? that's why I'm so confused...why are we loving mike to death for doing something he all but had to do? because he seems initiated in the community and on the level with us - a bonus every company likes to have.

Again read my quote. I am thanking Mike for what he can give us. He told us that he is reading ACS. He cannot answer the MP question. I have been taught some manners, and that means I thank people for giving me something they didn't have to. As others have pointed out, Firaxis does not have to post on this site, and many times they go a while without doing so. So when they do I think it is common courtesy to at least thank them for taking some time out of their busy schedule to let us know some nugget about the game.

quote: I'm a huge civ fan and I can't wait for civ3. So when I have an important question and a firaxis guy avoids it like some sort of terrible disease, I can only assume that Mike only checked in to shut us up.

Well it is not going to shut me up in another thread, but in one where the whole thing is to get a programmer to answer a pr question, i will shut up. If you have a problem with this then good for you. But I will do the common sense thing and continue my crusade some where else.

	18-09-2001 00:00									#65
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Usually one someone goes out of their way to do something for you (regrardless of how it might benefit them) it is appreciated.

To me that doesn't apply here, Mike's post was textbook PR. Had he been speaking from our standpoint, I doubt he'd direct us to Ask the Civ Team. It takes little guessing to figure out just what kind of response you'll get from them. Probably none.

I'm not actually blaming Mike himself. I'm trying to understand why all of you are so moved by his response. It wasn't helpful, it should've been a trust crusher. Instead it turned all of us into mere mortals kneeling to Firaxis' altar.

"Discouraging" is the word I was looking for this whole time. We asked a direct question and we got a link that essentially leads to a 404.

As for Mike's job, I doubt he wants to be fired, so there you go.

	18-09-2001 00:13									#66
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quote: I'm trying to understand why all of you are so moved by his response

I don't see how my post could be taken as being so touching. All I said was thanks Mike for a reply in that manner or something to that affect. You may be overestimating on how much we are gratified by Mike's post. Yes, we appreciate his post but we have not gained much happiness from it.

I can't believe all this discussion has been created by one single post.

	18-09-2001 00:22									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Ask the civ team would probably get filtered out. They only read a handful of letters, censored to bits.

Just FYI, I do not censor or even edit any of the e-mails we print on the "ask the Civ team" responses. They are printed wholly intact, spelling errors, bad grammar and all.

Do we read every single one? Sorry to say, but it's just not possible. There are literally THOUSANDS of emails in that box, and there's no way I could read them all.

As far as which letters we print, there are a lot of messages sent askthecivteam that are just not suitable to print for one reason or another: some are written so poorly no one would understand what the question was. Some make liberal use of profanity, others send suggestions instead of questions. Some are kinda tasteless (like the bunch we got last week asking us if we would put terrorism into the game), and still others are so long that I couldn't possibly post them because they'd literally scroll on and on for minutes at a time.

When it comes time to answering a few of them for an Ask the Civ Team, I try to find a couple of interesting, reasonably written questions, and I answer to them as best I can, or if I don't know the answer, I'll find someone who does.

Another thing you have to realize is that many of the people who visit civ3.com are not hard-core, knowledgeable civers like you guys who are already on top of everything happening with the game. A balance has to be struck between discussing topics that are interesting to the hardcore fans and topics that are interesting to the casual visitor to the site who wants to know more about what's going on with Civ3. I try to do both wherever possible.

Dan

	18-09-2001 00:33									#68
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Dan thank you very much for posting on this thread. We appreciate that you guys at Firaxis read what we have to say. Thank you for clearing up miconceptions of the Ask the Civ team. However, Dan I am giong to assume that since you have yet to answer our question about MP either way - that you guys still have no idea. Well I find that a little disheatening. Thanks though for your time.

	18-09-2001 00:34									#69
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Dan, I understand most of your position on the "ask the civ team". I just don't see why you can't answer maybe 8-10 questions at a time, instead of 4.

Plus, one question that you need to answer. When will you release info on whether or not MP will be included?

	18-09-2001 00:39									#70
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Wiglaf - go ahead and begin criticizing my above post to Dan. I want to honestly know what you think about it.

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf To me that doesn't apply here, Mike's post was textbook PR. Had he been speaking from our standpoint, I doubt he'd direct us to Ask the Civ Team. It takes little guessing to figure out just what kind of response you'll get from them. Probably none.

He cannot speak from our standpoint, he is a designer. His company is undecided as to what they are going to do. So what do you want him to say? That Firaxis is arguing over this? I mean that he could lose his job over. Not the crap you keep spewing.

quote: I'm not actually blaming Mike himself. I'm trying to understand why all of you are so moved by his response. It wasn't helpful, it should've been a trust crusher. Instead it turned all of us into mere mortals kneeling to Firaxis' altar.

None of us were moved with his respone. All we are doing is thanking him for his time. Just as I would thank you for your time if you did or said anything that I was interested in. I can't understand why you cannot understand that. Go read the other MP threads, I have continued to rant against the treatment. But this thread is about Mike and he has nothing to do with what Firaxis decides on MP. So I will leave him alone as I should. And go on to the PR and managerial position people.

quote: "Discouraging" is the word I was looking for this whole time. We asked a direct question and we got a link that essentially leads to a 404.

We have been asking the same question on other threads and have had no response. They even somewhat addressed it in the Ask the Civ team but again gave a round about answer. What is Mike going to give us that will satisfy us? Nothing. We already knew that they are currently ignoring the issue. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

quote: As for Mike's job, I doubt he wants to be fired, so there you go.

Exactly so he is not going to give us information that he is not entitled to give or Firaxis is ready to reveal. So why should I not thank him for working hard and then I will go on and try and come into contact with more important people like those from Infogrames?

	18-09-2001 02:28									#71
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins Dan, I understand most of your position on the "ask the civ team". I just don't see why you can't answer maybe 8-10 questions at a time, instead of 4. Plus, one question that you need to answer. When will you release info on whether or not MP will be included?

Tell you what, I'll do my best to get a couple more questions answered on the next edition..


Dan

	18-09-2001 02:37									#72
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thanks Dan!

ps who do we make the bribes out to?

	18-09-2001 02:43									#73
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quote: Wiglaf - go ahead and begin criticizing my above post to Dan. I want to honestly know what you think about it.

Dan thank you very much for posting on this thread. We appreciate that you guys at Firaxis read what we have to say. Thank you for clearing up miconceptions of the Ask the Civ team. However, Dan I am giong to assume that since you have yet to answer our question about MP either way - that you guys still have no idea. Well I find that a little disheatening. Thanks though for your time.

it's perfect

I think you guys are getting the wrong message from my posts. What I've tried to say is, Mike's reply was nice and it's great to know Firaxis bothers to post here; at the same time, you have to realize there is business motive and money is involved. Posting within a message board furthers a sense of community more than any prewritten PR statement ever could.

Personally I am extremely confused as to how they manage to post here. It's something rarely done with any degree of consistancy as far as game companies are concerned, so maybe I'm reacting with a 'confrontational' approach is because this is a relatively new thing going on.

So, Dan or Mike or any other Firaxis employees, I gather, (as tniem said) cannot answer our questions about MP at this point? Personally I believe this is too bad, because the entire civ3 community here would like to know, before we pay $50 for the boxed copy, the exact specs of the title.

Is there a solid response on the matter? Why would MP be separate from SP?

quote: Tell you what, I'll do my best to get a couple more questions answered on the next edition..

	18-09-2001 03:39									#74
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A lot of people have been complaining about the likely lack of multiplayer in the game without fully understanding the issues involved with the implementation of multiplayer. The biggest problem with multiplayer?

Cheaters.

If a game does not provide adequate protection against cheaters, then the multiplayer gaming experience will be a bad experience for every honest player that plays against a cheater. Unless anti-cheating protection is built into the game, a cheater will be able to see the whole map, know the location and type of all your units, perhaps even see the build queues for all your cities. It is the suppression of access to such unauthorised information that makes multiplayer gaming so difficult to implement.

It is for this reason that most patches to games address multiplayer issues. It is why players with older versions of online games must upgrade before joining games with newer versions.

I'm expecting the game to be released with hotseat multiplayer only. I'm hoping that other multiplayer options will be released as a downloadable extra when they are ready.

	18-09-2001 04:31									#75
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interesting point. IMO there's no real way to stop cheaters, though, as Blizzard found out with their games. someone dedicated enough could easily crack the code. putting a lot of time into it would probably be wasted resources.

	18-09-2001 04:51									#76
	Glad to hear you got my messages Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS there are a lot of messages sent askthecivteam that are just not suitable to print

Moi?

I'll send you a few more if you confirm multiplayer is out of the first release

	18-09-2001 05:00									#77
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quote: Tell you what, I'll do my best to get a couple more questions answered on the next edition..

Hey thanks...I would appreciate that. You sure are catering to my wants of late (screenshots to be put up soon & now more questions to be answered).

	18-09-2001 05:39									#78
	Got spare money?

i honestly don't see why Dan can't just tell us if MP is in or not right here right now.

having a major piece of a game in questionable status is horrible.

DON'T GIVE DEATAILS IF YOU CAN'T. AND IF YOU'RE GAGGED I HAVE A SYSTEM...

IS MULTIPLAYER IN?

or

	18-09-2001 06:14									#79
	Remove this text

I know I want to see a big . Until that time when I see either the or I don't care. Obviously, Firaxis isn't going to release any info on MP at this time and we need to give it a break.

	18-09-2001 06:45									#80
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by UberKruX i honestly don't see why Dan can't just tell us if MP is in or not right here right now.

He must have something more to update the site with, except trivia and the new screens promised.

	18-09-2001 07:37									#81
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yes. i understand the pile of work dan has. and i understand that mark isn't allowed to release info. i just want a or a . i dont need any more than that.

	18-09-2001 11:13									#82
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How about this: Firaxis themselves are still not sure if it is going to be or ? Maybe, just maybe, they are working their asses off right now - knowing that the deadline is approaching fast - to try to make it , but can't promise anything at this time?

Quite frankly, some of you are incredibly inpatient...
Come on, give them a break!

But yeah, I'm just a settler, so what do I know...

Peace!
-- Roland

	18-09-2001 13:01									#83
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Rasputin We are aksed to contact Firaxis direct via ASKthecivteam... I did that and got no repsonse at all, not even a "we are busy right now and will repsond later"

Same to me.
I've asked a question twice and did not even get an automated response back. Only absolute silence...

No more questions for the "ask the civ team" for me.

Edit (havind read the 2nd half of the tread now): Hmmm.. did not realize the number of mails could be that big. However, an automated reponse still would be fine.

Hey Dan , If I'ld put {tuckson} in the headline, you can pick out my questions easily to answer them?

	18-09-2001 13:19									#84
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf Had he been speaking from our standpoint, I doubt he'd direct us to Ask the Civ Team. It takes little guessing to figure out just what kind of response you'll get from them. Probably none.

This whole Mike thing is becoming bit irritating.

First this, If I were Sid, I'ld have called all my programmers around the table long ago and told them firm and clearly that the first one who 'ld say anything else then "ask the civ team" would lose his yearly bonuses (or whatever they get at Firaxis).

Second, don't you think that those guys at Firaxis could be as much as a Civ lovers as you and me and anyone here? I guess they too would like to discuss matters here because it's cool to be among people with the same interest. However they know too much so they have a problem (see point 1)

Mike has said all he could without getting arguments with his superiors I guess.

Too Mike B: Please stop answering questions and kick that MP support in the game. I guess it's the only way to shut the guys up?

	18-09-2001 13:45									#85
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quote: yes. i understand the pile of work dan has. and i understand that mark isn't allowed to release info. i just want a or a . i dont need any more than that.

I don't care how much work Dan has. Firaxis is NOT ready to release info on MP at this time. Even if Dan didn't have any work and could go on a long, extended vacation he wouldn't be able to release info on MP. We all tried our hardest to retrieve the answer on MP but we had no luck. Now it is time to just let Firaxis take their time (they are going to do so either way) on releasing MP info and have MP release talks die down for now.

	18-09-2001 13:47									#86
	Got spare money?

I have read almost all responses to this thread now, and it keeps amazing me (no offense to anyone meant!) how much time we all have to occupy ourselves with these forums .

About the topic itself: I tend to agree with those who believe that Firaxis wants MP in the game but has experienced some difficulty to implement it the way they wanted it to be.

Being a programmer myself I understand how difficult it must be to announce a feature to the world, and then face the problems when its not feasible (within a given production time-frame).

So when they need more time to get it 'right', I can only applaud them for making the decision to hold it off the initial release. No one wants buggy software, and by using the extra time (and revenues that are brought in by the initial soft will provide) they can do it 'perfectly'. This never is a fun compromise, but often unavoidable. I'm sure no-one at Firaxis is happy that things turned out like this, but I have faith in them that they will fix this at a later stage.

That said, what is unfortunate tho, is the fact that its not announced officially (probably not until the game is being shipped). Whoever runs the PR dept at Firaxis should know by now that it would be a let down for alot of ppl who come to these forums.
But once it is known we would accept it. Especially if the message would tell us that a good MP addon would be created later.

And honestly, I'll give my right arm (ehh) anyday for a solid SP experience.. often MP is not really that great.. And hey, we aren't talking about Quake4 or any other typical MP FPS game .. its Civilisation 3.

Thanks for reading my opinion.

Have a good day (especially the Dev team of Firaxis)!

Aco

	18-09-2001 13:50									#87
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quote: ps who do we make the bribes out to?

You were one of those $1000 guys ?

So far Dan didn't earn any $, since we still don't know anything about MP

But hey, we would lose all the fun if we knew the answer !
Mystery is a great part of the fun I guess

thanks Dan !
We really appreciate the 25 new screens you're going to upload and the 20 questions that are going to be answered
(or am I pushing it over the limit now ?)

Cyber(notso)Shy

	18-09-2001 14:01									#88
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quote: We really appreciate the 25 new screens you're going to upload and the 20 questions that are going to be answered

Well, I'll be accepting all "thank you's" for my great accomplishments. First I enticed Dan enough for him to say that he will put up more new screenshots soon, then I was able to have him say that he will try to get more "ask the civ team" questions answered. Bravo to me.
By the way thanks again, Dan

	18-09-2001 14:51									#89
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oh, whatever
saying 'thanks' doesn't cost me a dime thus there we go:

Thanks oh noble techwins for your effords !
Thanks CyberShy for starting this wonderful thread
Thanks Markos en Daniel (the quick one) for providing us with these wonderfull messageboards !
Thanks oh Ming for not deleting all these pathatic posts !
Thanks Microprose for Civilization !
Thanks Bryan Reynolds for Civilization II
Thanks Sid for the air we breath
Thanks Bill Gates for the wonderfull OS we use to play the game
Thanks George Bush for providing such a fine nation in wich we can play these games
Thanks to my father and my mother for giving birth to me !
Thanks to all the Firaxis team for putting multiplayer in the box so we can get it right out the box !
Thanks Mike for not sueing me for putting you into my sujbect line
Thanks Dan Magahaha (Mahaga ? to lazy to look it up) for providing us with all those hundreds of screenshots and answered questions (am I repeating ?)
Thanks to my girlfriend for playing out of the box mp games with me over our lan !
Thanks thanks thanks.

it's great to be thankfull !

	18-09-2001 14:57									#90
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quote: Originally posted by star mouse I'm expecting the game to be released with hotseat multiplayer only. I'm hoping that other multiplayer options will be released as a downloadable extra when they are ready.

Hah... my chance to prove that I really am a SP addict.
What the heck is "hotseat"? And now I'm dealing with this stuff anyway, what's PBEM?
I've occasionally played games across the Internet, and played civ also across a lan. But hotseat and PBEM....?