21-09-2001 10:34									#121
	Put an end to popups!

Fortunately, Sid and Jeff Briggs agree with the SP crowd (PCGamer Interview):

quote: >>Jeff Briggs: I think the single player experience in Civ III is the central feature of the game, as it has been in all Civ games so far. We do plan to have a couple of pretty fantastic multiplayer experiences in Civ III. I don’t think you will have seen anything like it. The single player will be the focus but there will be multiplayer components. >>Sid Meier: If we just wanted to go with what sells, we couldn’t taken quake engine and make a massively multiplayer game. We want to be true to the Civilization experience and that’s the approach we’re taking.

MP may be the future of gaming, but it is not at the core of what Civ gaming is. It'll be at least another few iterations before that happens (odds are it won't be Sid game when the money men and lawyers get involved). Civ3 is focusing on SP, as it should be. MP, while part of the game (eventually) is a definite second fiddle to SP.

	21-09-2001 10:42									#122
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Fortunately, Sid and Jeff Briggs agree with the SP crowd (PCGamer Interview): MP may be the future of gaming, but it is not at the core of what Civ gaming is. It'll be at least another few iterations before that happens (odds are it won't be Sid game when the money men and lawyers get involved). Civ3 is focusing on SP, as it should be. MP, while part of the game (eventually) is a definite second fiddle to SP.

Did you notice Apolyton being mentioned?

quote: >>Jeff Briggs Right. For example, we got from this site on the web dedicated to Civ II a document of all the things they wanted to see in Civ III, [as well as] lots of fan email daily about what people want to see.

	21-09-2001 10:59									#123
	Tired of ads?

Too bad Apolyton is "just a site on the web" You'd think with all the work guys like Yin put into the list, they'd be willing to drop a few names

	21-09-2001 11:04									#124
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Too bad Apolyton is "just a site on the web" You'd think with all the work guys like Yin put into the list, they'd be willing to drop a few names

Yeah...
Well, maybe Jeff did but don't the Game mag just like competition for their website?

Well, anyway, at least it can be assumed that the list has had it's influence on the the development of civ3.
That's worth something, doesn't it?

	21-09-2001 19:25									#125
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Stormprophet-

quote: But I have no doubt they have the code for MP. They of course have the old code from Civ II gold, and SMAC. SMAC would likely be a closer match.

Well they couldn't use the Civ II gold code, different company. SMAC meanwhile they could have used. But from what I understand is that they a long time scraped most of that code for what they were working on. And if Civ Fanatics is right, they only began work on MP in August, so then the code is probably not done. Sounds a little shaky.

AH-

quote: They never answered my "Is Sid Meir Gay? What does the team think?" question for a start

belinda9-

quote: No, that's not how I see it. They're taking preorders for this game: I think this puts them under some obligation to tell me ONCE AND FOR ALL if the game I'm preordering is going to have a MP feature that has been previously alluded to, or if they're not going to have it. Otherwise, it's a bait-and-switch, which is not what I call good business ethics.

That is the point. They want me to buy the game now, then they should let me know if it is going to be in the game or not. There silence is keeping me from purchasing the game. I assume that I will buy it soon after release and work on the bug project but silence is the loudest word that something isn't right.

stormprophet-

quote: To say the least, the game looks awesome. And it's what we, the fans, asked for.

Well if the game does not include multiplayer than it does not have everything that I want. In fact to me it has taken a serious step backwards. MP may not be the prefered way of playing due to time limitations, but it is my prefered way to play and it is the only way to get a good challenge. On top of that it is a great way to meet new people and stay in contact with old friends. I am still playing some PBEM SMAC games with people I have not seen in a number of years. So yes I will continue to complain that a vital game feature is not included.

Anukioba-

quote: Most CIVers only play Single Player!!

And so yes SP is important. But there are us MP players and there is a fear that if they are cutting MP that they are cutting other elements or corners. So I am quite fearful of what this means to the game overall.

Wiglaf-

quote: I think you exaggerate the problem. MP will apparantly be added in later, maybe even as a free download. It's not a big deal either way, so don't get all upset about it. I really believe that civ3's AI will be subpar mainly because of SMAC and all the new features that seem to have been tossed in at random, with no concern for the overall play experiance.

First you say he is over exagerating the problem then you say the game is going to have subpar AI. So which is it? And with subpar AI are you going to enjoy SP games. I know I won't. I will only find MP games challenging and fun.

Stormprophet-

quote: The same is true of Mplayer. If the game sucks, it sucks, mplayer isn't going to change that.

But if only the AI or the computer's decisions suck then MP will fix it. This game is definitely going to be good at least conceptually. It is an addition to the games that we have all loved. So we look at the game and see that it will allow us to do a lot of things. It will also allow the AI to do a lot of things. So it will be fun to do these things but if the AI cannot do them then there will be no challenge. The game in SP mode will suck. Now you play another human that will also be able to do a lot of things, now you have a challenge. So yes MP can rescue a game that has poor AI.

quote: Quit mentioning CTP as if it actually had some credibility. That game is a software whore.

If you have played MP CtP then you would respect it. If you played Wes's med pack you would like it. So until you do, stop critizing the game. In fact I don't believe you have ever actually bought the game. So until you give it a chance, do yourself a favor and keep your mouth shut.

Serapis-

quote: Too bad Apolyton is "just a site on the web" You'd think with all the work guys like Yin put into the list, they'd be willing to drop a few names

It would be nice.

	22-09-2001 22:11									#126
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: And if anyone noticed in the Making of Civ III video. It was mentioned that the AI will trick, and raw deal you. Because of their character reactions you may think one thing about the leader but they are thinking something completely different.

ok, but that still tells me nothing about how it actually works in managing 99% of what really matters: the game. And even that little feature might fail and become predictable. truth of the matter is we don't know anything for sure right now, but things are looking more and more like civ is a rushed product (no MP, little AI info, two different versions for the holidays). I hope firaxis has the game polished right now and in perfect condition, as one month from launch is hardly a good time to be tweaking and adding in the AI.

	22-09-2001 23:34									#127
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

MP is not in because they spent so much time on AI that they only started MP fairly recently. I don't think that the AI will be bad merely because of "little AI info." What does firaxis need to tell you about the idea other than "it's good"? And why does two different versions for the holidays make it look rushed? Because they sell another fancier, more expensive version? Its the same game, with a bonus scenario in it! You just want to be pessimistic about everything because you want us to wait for civ 3 until they have multiplayer. the SP is ready, I don't need to wait for a patch I don't need. And, I've said it before and I'll say it again, you have no proof that MP won't be in it! Your argument has little to back it up.

	22-09-2001 23:51									#128
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

The thought that "most people want to play SP" hasn't at all been established. 2/3 of people in the US are now internet-ready. This was never the case in the past.

	23-09-2001 00:00									#129
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yeah, and the figure's even higher in Canada, but it doesn't mean that all of those people play games, much less online. And it doesn't mean those who play games online play civ 3 online. I, obviously, have an internet connection, but you'll note I'm not tempted to play civ3 online. I am not the only one who feels this way. in addition, people who would play civ3 online are over-represented on these forums. And that figure, by the way, does not in anyway challenge a thing i've said in my previous post, so i don't understand what point you're trying to make.

	23-09-2001 00:06									#130
	Got spare money?

Isaac: have you even tried it? I have played many hundreds of hours of internet MP. It is now integral to my Civ experience. I couldn't give a fig about the AI, because I know that it will be an insufficient challenge for at least a couple of years.

It just boggles my mind that anybody on these boards wouldn't want MP fiercely. I'm forced to think that most who think this, haven't tried it.

	23-09-2001 00:18									#131
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

The answer is of course, no. But that proves my point that people simply don't care about MP. Maybe I'll enjoy it someday. I guess I'll just have to wait for the patch to find out, won't I?

Also, it may very well be true that AI will be an insufficient challenge for a few years (though I bet Impossible is a lot more difficult than Deity ever was). I think it will be a sufficient enough challenge for six months or however long an MP patch takes. You would be willing to wait 6 months for them to release the full game with MP, wouldn't you? So why mind being able to buy it single player so you can play and possibly even mod for six months then get the patch? If you want to pretend to have bought the full game, download the patch when its released, then while it's loading buy a copy of civ thats been out since oct. 31. Then enjoy it and never think about these foolish squabbles over multiplayer again.

	23-09-2001 00:33									#132
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

You know, nobody cared about Civ, either, before they played it. So even if it's true that those who haven't played MP don't care about MP, it makes absolutely no difference. For me, the game, until patched, has a training mode only.

You'll find precious few who have played MP, and don't see the fun in it. You'll get a lot of people who are frustrated about certain elements (both human and game-wise), but only because they've played it so much!

edit:

"You would be willing to wait 6 months for them to release the full game with MP, wouldn't you?"

I'll not buy an incomplete game, and will actively encourage those who I know to do likewise. A game without MP, in this day and age, is incomplete. Firaxis knows better--this isn't 1991 or 1995. Firaxis has amply demonstrated that it understands this.

Last edited by DanS on 23-09-2001 at 01:08

	23-09-2001 02:36									#133
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

he's right, brock. a game without MP would be fine before 1997 or so. Now it's borderline unforgiveable.

Civ3 needs that mode, given the huge gaps that will be found in the AI at one point or another. Granted, I loved civ2 without MP - but this isn't nearly comparable for three reasons:

1) It's the 21st century, there's no reason for a game to be released incomplete like this. If they ran out of time for MP, did they cut corners elsewhere? And all this rushing for the holidays....not a good sign.

2) the AI here has to be about 100x the AI in civ2. The amount of features the new version has is hard enough for a human, let alone a home computer. Firaxis fell apart on alpha centauri's AI, and that was 1/2 of civ3. Imagine what the future holds.

3) I've come to expect the ability to play my friends, and it will always - no matter how good a job Firaxis does on the AI - take the place of a solo mode.

	23-09-2001 02:55									#134
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I have not seen any evidence to support your claim that AI will be poor merely because there's no MP. In fact, I think they did the single player first and, when satisfied, got going on MP. Since they are on a deadline, I would rather have a game that has a solid single player experience (with an MP patch to follow) than a disappointing combination of both.

	23-09-2001 03:02									#135
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by isaac brock I have not seen any evidence to support your claim that AI will be poor merely because there's no MP. In fact, I think they did the single player first and, when satisfied, got going on MP. Since they are on a deadline, I would rather have a game that has a solid single player experience (with an MP patch to follow) than a disappointing combination of both.

Completely agree. Let Firaxis focus on SP first, as it will provide a good basis for MP, later in time.

	23-09-2001 03:04									#136
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

quote: I have not seen any evidence to support your claim that AI will be poor merely because there's no MP.

It's common sense. We've had an information drought regarding AI, other than little teasers like 'it decieves you' or 'it's cunning'. Typical marketing ploys. Then we get another ploy, the Limited Edition. For $20 more you get a pretty case and some Monopoly-like Deluxe Edition.

And then we get word there isn't any MP. There's no evidence the AI will be good, let me put it that way. Judging by the above, it only gets worse.

quote: In fact, I think they did the single player first and, when satisfied, got going on MP.

"In fact" "I think" .... PR nonsense

quote: Since they are on a deadline, I would rather have a game that has a solid single player experience (with an MP patch to follow) than a disappointing combination of both.

they aren't forced to release the game in October. It's all about the money, and it's becoming apparant the gameplay will have to suffer.

	23-09-2001 03:35									#137
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Oh, boohoo! "It's all about the money!" What the hell did you think they were making the game for? They aren't getting paid in goats, here.

It is not the deadline of firaxis. They didn't set it. Firaxis is not out to get you or anything. It simply isn't possible to ship on time with MP in the game. And if i am spewing PR, thats okay, because all this anti-firaxis rhetoric should be responded to with the opposite end of the spectrum. Otherwise this turns into a whole thread of "I agree" and nothing else

	23-09-2001 04:10									#138
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf they aren't forced to release the game in October. It's all about the money, and it's becoming apparant the gameplay will have to suffer.

No they are forced by publishers to put out a game that is satisfactory to the majority of players/customers in a reasonable amount of time. "Reasonable amount of time" being defined by the publisher. By Jeff Briggs own words (quoted earlier in this thread) the Firaxis concept of majority of players is SP players.

So far everything has run according to plan. October is a reasonable amount of time as their release date is about 1.5-2 years since Civ3 development began, two years being expected by Jeff Briggs (in the same interview). And they are releasinng a full retail version of SP, which by Firaxis' own words is their philosophy for "majority of players"

Firaxis is fulfilling their expectations as laid out by themselves and publisher. If you want to argue, don't complain that gameplay is going to suffer, complain that their philosophy is wrong. The only difference between SP and MP is who controls the enemy Civs. Gameplay doesn't suffer if the the game mechanics remain the same. Only the challenge, Even today, not everyone is able to beat the Civ2 deity level. Just because many people on Apolyton can doesn't mean that the majority of Civ players can.

	23-09-2001 04:25									#139
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by DanS It just boggles my mind that anybody on these boards wouldn't want MP fiercely. I'm forced to think that most who think this, haven't tried it.

I haven't tried it because my work load varies so much. I'll go 2 weeks without anything to do but be a couch potato, be able to play all the video games I want, then go another 2 weeks and be so loaded down with work that I'm happy just to go to bed, let alone play even solitaire on the computer. Who wants to play PBEM Civ or any other long drawn out internet game with someone like that? Then throw in the fact that my opponents would have varied schedules and might not be available to play when I am, it's just not worth the hassle. I play video games to have fun and relax. I don't want to play games because I feel forced too, because I haven't emailed some guy on the net recently my turn yet because I'm busy. Video games are a diversion from life, school, work. I don't want them to become a chore, which is what MP Civ would be because of the enormous time commitment required to play. I stick to SP, because I can play it on my schedule, at my pace, on my time, and at my leisure, and am not restricted from play because someone else has a different schedule. I usually play Civ in 3-4 hour minimum marathon sessions, a play style that is impossible in MP.

	23-09-2001 04:38									#140
	Tired of ads?

Most of these posts assume no MP... there's no confirmation of that. Why wouldn't Firaxis release info on MP you ask? Well since I don't design games or work in the industry I can only give you my educated guesses.

1. They're BUSY, they're trying to meet a deadline and they don't want to bother with telling everyone that there is in fact MP. (admittedly this one's weak)

2. They want to create tons of mystery about it and make people think there won't be MP, so that when they release it and everyone realizes it has MP they'll all love it no matter how good/bad it is.

3. They want to create mystery because this is the only way for them to get entertainment. ("Hahahaha, look at those guys siding with Yin!" "OMG we've really got 'em going don't we?")

4. There is no reason, they are Firaxis and we obey...

	23-09-2001 04:42									#141
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I have never assumed MP was in. It's just easier to argue if you humour them and share that common ground

	23-09-2001 04:55									#142
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV The only difference between SP and MP is who controls the enemy Civs. Gameplay doesn't suffer if the the game mechanics remain the same. Only the challenge, Even today, not everyone is able to beat the Civ2 deity level. Just because many people on Apolyton can doesn't mean that the majority of Civ players can.

Yes, not everyone can beat civ2 on deity. Those are the players that get chewed up and spit out in an MP game. There are those who found the civ2 AI so weak that they play a one city challenge, limiting themselves to a single city the entire game, and still trash the AI at diety. I assure you that there will be a significant number of civers who will have the game figured out by the end of november, and will be modding the game to get a challenge. Despite what Firaxis says about the AI, to make a really challenging AI would drive up the system requirements and lengthen the turn processing time. These are two things that would narrow the appeal of the game, thus hinder sales. So firaxis now says the AI will be deceptive and cunning, to me it means built in AI cheats.

	23-09-2001 04:59									#143
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

In civ 3 there is absolutely no AI cheating except for impossible level.

	23-09-2001 05:04									#144
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by isaac brock Oh, boohoo! "It's all about the money!" What the hell did you think they were making the game for? They aren't getting paid in goats, here.

:sigh: I never argued they needed money, I'm arguing the gameplay is suffering for it. That's what this whole topic is about....

quote: It is not the deadline of firaxis. They didn't set it. Firaxis is not out to get you or anything. It simply isn't possible to ship on time with MP in the game. And if i am spewing PR, thats okay, because all this anti-firaxis rhetoric should be responded to with the opposite end of the spectrum. Otherwise this turns into a whole thread of "I agree" and nothing else

It isn't possible to ship with MP? Why not? The deadline, whoever set it, is there for money at the gamer's expense.

quote: Firaxis is fulfilling their expectations as laid out by themselves and publisher. If you want to argue, don't complain that gameplay is going to suffer, complain that their philosophy is wrong. The only difference between SP and MP is who controls the enemy Civs. Gameplay doesn't suffer if the the game mechanics remain the same. Only the challenge, Even today, not everyone is able to beat the Civ2 deity level. Just because many people on Apolyton can doesn't mean that the majority of Civ players can.

ok, but civ2 isn't civ3. As I've said before, the AI will have to be improved 100x from the past game in the series in order for it to be a challenge because of all the new stuff. Look at alpha centauri, a game made purely by Firaxis. So so AI. Civ3 = magnification of the problem, and we all know why.

I'm not an anti Firaxis guy, brock. Actually I own almost every game they've released. Does that mean I have to support them on such a ridiculous marketing move? No, and that's where our opinions branch off. I don't give my absolute support for everything they do, and hopefully you don't either.

	23-09-2001 05:14									#145
	Inflate your Upload Space

Again, you are not blowing the lid off some conspiracy. Of course the money is at the gamer's expense? Where do you think they get their money?

It is not possible to release it immediately and have MP because it isn't ready and they have a deadline. Without deadlines, the world would sit on it's ass and accomplish nothing. besides, in the PC Gamer article my good friend SerapisIV quoted, Jeff says that the game is mostly about a satisfying single player experience, not the needs of 10 people who exploded because Mister Pleasant started a fun little rumour.

	23-09-2001 05:19									#146
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: The deadline, whoever set it, is there for money at the gamer's expense

So developer's should never release games??? I've said it and so have a few others, without a deadline not much would get done. Or to put it another way, games, like pieces of writing, are never finished, they're just let go of. Hmm, I hope you get my drift, that if designers and writers had their way there would always be "one more thing" to tweak or "one more feature" and games would never get released.

	23-09-2001 05:33									#147
	Get a bigger avatar today!

a rushed game is different from a game that's finished and is being tweaked to no end.

	23-09-2001 05:35									#148
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

The deadline was known well before this evening. Firaxis had ample time to plan appropriately for multiplayer--to put those cool ideas into action. Indeed, they've done MP without much problem in the past.

	23-09-2001 05:41									#149
	Suffering from ads?

They've done MP without much problem in the past. But before they weren't doing some interesting new MP formats. this time they're trying to do that at the same time as make an immersive single player, which is all the majority of civ players want anyway.

	23-09-2001 05:48									#150
	Suffering from ads?

"But before they weren't doing some interesting new MP formats."

Yes, they've also never had the graphics that they have in this game. So we can get a patch for those, too? Really, I'm not impressed with the reasoning.