15-09-2001 20:18									#1
	Phoenicians/Carthaginians Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Let's continue with the name selection of the top 16 in Locutus POLL.
This time we are facing the Phoenicians/Carthaginians.

Also try to describe the Civ, and find possible Unique Units and leaders.

Other POLLs in the series:
Turks/Ottomans
Hebrew/Israelis
Ethiopians/Aksumites

Last edited by Gramphos on 15-09-2001 at 21:14

	15-09-2001 22:15									#2
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I chose Carthaginians, because I mainly know this civ under this name, with Carthago as its capital. They are famous because of their three punic wars against Rome.

I think Hannibal would be a good leader, as he almsot defeated the Roman Empire in his legandary march over the Alps with his elephants. It would make sense to make a war elephant the special unit of the Carthaginians, but as the Indian special unit is a war elephant too, we might have to choose another one

Any suggestions??

	16-09-2001 00:32									#3
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Phoenicians (first city Tyre, second city Carthage) should have some sort of an ultra-fast trireme since their only important colony was so far from home.

	16-09-2001 01:00									#4
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I think that the carthaginians are the btter choice. The phonecians represent a culture, not a nationstate. There was never any large scale unity between the phonecian city states, they were less unified than greece.

Carthage, however, represents a group of phonecians who rose to a state of great power and held sway over a great deal of territory. And besides, what would rome be, without carthage?

	16-09-2001 17:43									#5
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I don't know so much about the Phonecians, only the Carhaginians. Would Dido be a good ruler? Would Hannibal make a better leader? I seem to recall a passage from the Aeneid describing them as being industrious bees and building a city in the desert. This would point to me to the Industrious and Expansionist characteristics. On the other hand, the Carthaginians were renowned for thier trade and Hannibal DID lead elephants across the Alps, so perhaps commercial/ militaristic would be better. Any opinions?

	16-09-2001 19:03									#6
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IMHO Commercial/Industrious suits them best, because the Phoenicians/Carthagians were maybe the most powerful trade faction of the Mediterranian before (and mostly during) their conflict with Rome, and they were surely productive (the Aeneid exerpt and the fact that they were able to rebuild quickly after the second Punic War, according to Cato).

I think the leader should be Dido, just to balance the amount male/female leaders. The UU should be an upgraded trireme or an early war elephant... I suggest the first alternative.

	16-09-2001 19:06									#7
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This poll is interesting, it is 10 vs 10 votes atm, lets see how this will develop...

I think they must have the ability commercial (Carthago was one of the richest cities of the ancient world) , the second one should either be expansionistic, industrious or miltaristic.

Hannibal would make a better IMHO, because he was a carthaginian general in Carthago's years of glory, while Ddio was queen when Carthago was still a quite unimportant town.

	19-09-2001 03:23									#8
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well they are obviously commercial, but actually i think expansionist is a better choice than industrious because they built colonies all around the Mediterannean and conquered Spain

	19-09-2001 03:58									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo And besides, what would rome be, without carthage?

Cato wouldn't have had anything to say

	19-09-2001 19:43									#10
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We know more about Carthage (Kart-Hadesh in Phoenecian ) because they were such a thorn in Rome's side. One trait would have to be commercial, there is no doubt. They were hands down the most important seagoing peoples of the era. As the P's, they made it at least halfway around Africa, something unduplicated for millenia. As the C's, they built a huge mercantile and military kingdom. I have a hard time choosing which is more important, but our knowledge and familiarity with the latter makes them more appealing for a game.

On a side note, there is good reason to believe they are decended of the Cretans. The Cretans were far and away the most advanced people in the world before ~1700bc, when they got blown up (volcano). They had multi-story buildings, flush toilets, plumbing, working clocks, crude "batteries" for electroplating metal, and advanced ships. The Egyptians, who called foreigners "abominations before Ra," even considered them to be human. Now, that's a compliment!