15-08-2001 03:36									#1
	Expansion Pack Civs (Part 3): Just one more... Increase Your PM Length

PLEASE READ THE RULES BELOW CAREFULLY BEFORE POSTING HERE!. Too many people have broken the 'rules' already with their posts, while they really aren't that hard to understand.

For historical purposes, here are Parts 1 and 2 of this discussion:
Expansion Pack Civs: One more thread... (Let's do it right)
Expansion Pack Civs (Part 2) (temporary thread due to forum problems, started by MarkG)


Here's a reposting of the original introduction plus the most recent overall ranking:

There has been a lot of debate about which civs should have been included in Civ3 but weren't and should thus be put in an Expansion Pack (if there will ever be one). In my opinion there have been too many threads about this subject already and it's getting tiresome but I decided to start my own anyway. This is because IMHO none of the existing threads is really satisfactory: all these threads are standard vBB polls that only allow 10 options, while there are many more civs to choose from and some civs are more important than others. That's why I suggest a different system, one that allows everyone to vote for those civs which (s)he thinks are the most important. Hopefully this allows everyone to say their thing and be done with it...

I suggest we use the following system: you can post up to 16 civs that you feel should be included in an expansion pack (no more since an expansion pack is not likely to contain more and because it would only be more work to keep track of). You can post any civs you feel should be included, whether it's a big civ like Spain or a small one like Liechtenstein You can assign points to each of these civs: the more points you give, the more important you think it is for this civ to be included. You can assign at most 160 points in total and 20 to a single civ (this to prevent people from giving a lot of points to one civ and thus disrupting the 'reliability' of this poll). I'll volunteer to keep track of all posts and keep an overall ranking in this first post.

Edit: a couple of new 'rules' to avoid misunderstandings:
* If you just post civ names and no points, the points will be distributed equally among all choices. So if you post 16 names without points, all choices will get 10 points. If you post 8 names, all choices will get 20 points. If you don't agree with the points I assigned to your choices, give points yourself in the first place or change your vote afterwards (see below).
* Edit2: Second rule no longer applies
* If you wish to change your vote for any reason, that's possible but please don't edit your existing post or just post a new list. This would be very confusing for me to keep track of. Instead, only post the changes you wish to make. FE, if you already voted but see someone vote for the Cubans and think 'that's brilliant, why didn't I think of that?', you can change your vote by posting 'Arabs -7, Cubans +7' or something like that. Please do this even if you still have enough points left, so I can doublecheck to make sure you don't exceed the maximum number of civs/points. So if you only 'spent' 150 points over 12 civs, don't just posts 'Cubans 10' but rather 'Cubans +10'. TIA for doing so.

Some example civs to guide you in picking your civs (by no means exhaustive, feel free to post others): (Africa) Bantu, Zimbabwe, Swahili, Nigeria, Benin, Ghana, Mali, Moors, Morocco, Ethiopia/Axum, Nubia, Carthage, South Africa/Boer (Americas) Eskimo, Canada, Sioux, Cheyenne, Apache, Navajo, Hopi, Olmec, Maya, Inca, Tolmec, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina (Oceania) Maori, Aboriginals, Australia, Polynesia, Philippines, Indonesia (Asia) Khmer, Siam/Thai, Burma/Myanmar, Cambodia, Mongol, Annam/Vietnam, Korea, Tibet, Tamil, Sikh, Moghul, Kazakh, Pakistan, Parthia, Bactria, Armenia, Arabia, Hebrew, Hittites, Sumerian, Turkish/Ottomans, Byzantine, Phoenicia, Fillistines(sp?), Iraq (Europe) Spanish, Dutch, Minoan, Celts, Viking, Polish, Austria(-Hungary), Italy, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Danish, Scots, Irish, Belgium, Portuguese, Basque, Slavic, Serbia, Macedonia, Czech, Swiss, Bulgaria, Ukraine, Goths (for more: see ranking)

Edit2: Some more examples (courtesy of Brent):
{Removed because post was too long, see elsewhere in this thread}


Here's the overall ranking (last update: Staszek, # of votes: 171, # of points: 23789):

#	Civilizations		Points	Votes
1.	Mongols		1826	108
2.	Spanish		1822	109
3.	Arabs		1655	104
4.	Inca		1606	107
5.	Vikings		1523	97
6.	Turks/Ottomans		1234	86
7.	Phoenicians/Carthaginians		935	72
8.	Maya		929	71
9.	Celts		831	60
10.	Hebrew/Israelis		711	54
11.	Dutch		687	52
12.	Poles		641	40
13.	Portuguese		623	47
14.	Ethiopians/Aksumites		619	42
15.	Koreans		455	28
16.	Byzantines		390	27
17.	Polynesians		359	29
18.	Mali(ans)		339	28
19.	Austrians/Austro-Hungarians		320	22
20.	Khmer		298	23
21.	Assyrians		260	19
22.	Australians		239	18
23.	Inuit/Eskimos/Aleutians		235	19
24.	Sioux/Dakota		228	21
25.	Siamese/Thai		212	16
26.	Aborigines		188	13
27.	Huns		176	14
28.	Annam/Vietnamese		167	13
29.	Brazilians		145	12
30.	Apache		144	10
31.	Magyar/Hungarians		142	11
32.	Serbs		135	7
33.	Sumerians		125	10
34.	Canadians		125	9
35.	Swedes		125	8
36.	Neanderthals		123	7
37.	Tibetans		121	11
38.	Scots		120	10
39.	Slavs		115	9
40.	Zimbabweans		109	10
41.	Indonesians		95	7
42.	Italians		95	7
43.	Czech		95	6
44.	Minoans		85	6
45.	Fins		85	5
46.	Trojans		66	5
47.	Native Americans/American Indians		64	6
48.	Ghanaians/Accrans		63	6
49.	Goths		60	5
50.	Scandinavians		60	5
51.	Cubans		60	3
52.	Irish		60	3
53.	Welsh		60	3
54.	Nubians/Kushites		59	5
55.	Kazakhs		55	5
56.	Holy Roman Empirials/Catholics		55	3
57.	Mexicans		54	6
58.	Olmec		51	5
59.	Songhai		50	4
60.	Argentinians		50	3
61.	Nigerians/Swagilians		45	5
62.	Ukrainians		45	3
63.	Harappans/Dravidians/Indus People		41	4
64.	Hittites		40	4
65.	Anasazi		40	4
66.	Armenians		40	3
67.	Filipinos		40	3
68.	Belgians		40	2
69.	Catalans		40	2
70.	Confederates		40	2
71.	Iraqis		40	2
72.	Norwegians		37	3
73.	Muslims/Near East Asians		35	2
74.	Uzbek/LithuUzbek		32	3
75.	Texans		31	3
76.	Boers		30	3
77.	Amazonians (Native Brazilians)		30	2
78.	Bantu		30	2
79.	Danes		30	2
80.	Etruscs		30	2
81.	Iranians		30	2
82.	Philistinians		30	2
83.	Swahili/Kilwans		30	2
84.	Hmong		28	3
85.	Californians		28	2
86.	South Africans		25	3
87.	South East Asians		25	2
88.	Berbers		20	2
89.	Hawaiians		20	2
90.	Almerienses		20	1
91.	Bangladeshis		20	1
92.	Bedouin		20	1
93.	New Foundlandians		20	1
94.	Snake Mounds		20	1
95.	Tartars		20	1
96.	Ugandians		20	1
97.	Virginians		20	1
98.	Liechtenstein		17	2
99.	Luxembourg		17	1
100.	Hopi		16	2
101.	Cherokee		15	2
102.	Navaho		15	2
103.	Yankees		15	2
104.	Bulgarians		15	1
105.	Latvians		15	1
106.	Manchurians		15	1
107.	Sub-Saharans		15	1
108.	Swiss		15	1
109.	Tunguz		13	2
110.	Mesopotamians		12	1
111.	Caribbeans		10	1
112.	Fiji		10	1
113.	Iberians		10	1
114.	Javans		10	1
115.	Maori		10	1
116.	New Zealandish		10	1
117.	Quebecois		8	1
118.	Columbians		7	1
119.	Galactic Emperials (Star Wars)		6	1
120.	Papua/Papua New Guineans		5	1
121.	Sami		5	1
122.	Tonga		5	1
123.	Hospitaliers		4	1
124.	Khwarizm		2	1
125.	Fatty Lumpkins		1	1

Last edited by Locutus on 03-10-2001 at 02:33

	15-08-2001 03:37									#2
	Remove this text

All, update posted. Now all votes from the first thread have been counted. I'm proceeding with the rest of the votes now. Because of the combining of civs, some people gave too many posts to the new civs (i.e. votes of the old civs combined greater than 20). Here's a complete list of all people who, for whatever reason, still have points left:

Poster # of votes left
Alfonsus71 5
Bob Dornan 140
Colon: 7
cyril25376 53
Fiera 10
Hasdrubal 20
Jer8m8 10
Monkspider 20
Nikolai 20
Optimizer 10
Orange: 10
star mouse 5
Tis I: 6
Vlad Antlerkov 10
War4ever 10

Waku,
No need to apologize, you can change your vote whenever you want to (as long as you do it properly, like you did).

Colon(/Snapcase),
I stand corrected. In an English article about Ghana I read not too long ago, the inhabitants were referred to as Ghanese, so I simply assumed this to be the correct name. Didn't contemplate the possibility of the author being wrong... BTW, I can't give your 7 points to the Mongols, they already have 17.

Colon & Lockstep,
I agree, Good points. See the latest ranking to see which 'lumps' I made and let me know if there's anything wrong with them. Lockstep: top 20 or not, each civ should be treated equally.

Nikolai,
You can't give more than 20 points to a single civ, so you're vote on the Vikings is invalid. I gave them 20 points and left 20 points open.

Ykst,
You assigned 190 points, which is too many (the limit is 160). I can't count your vote until you adapt it (please post your new vote below, I'll ignore your previous ones).

Alfonsus,
At the risk of getting off-topic - the Dutch Expansionists? WTF? They're one of the smallest countries in the world for crying out loud! Scientific would be more appropriate: though they never brought forth many famous scientists or discoveries, the Dutch have always been one of the most important scientific nations in the world (the Phoenicians would be more appropriate as Commmercial Expansionists as they founded colonies all over the Mediterranean and surroundings (the Dutch colonies were more trading posts than real colonies)).

star mouse,
You voted for the Aztec but they are already in Civ3. So you still have 5 points left.

Techwin,
As Markos pointed out earlier, you cannot give more than 20 points to a single civ, so I can only give the Inca 20 points on your behalf. You still have the other 5 left. Also, I'm not sure if it's my place to vote for others but in your case I know just the civ: the only major civilization that ever existed in Africa that wasn't (significantly) influenced by foreign civs (European/Arabian/Muslim/Indian/Chinese/etc) was the late medieval/renaissance empire of Great Zimbabwe. I figured this is exactly the sort of thing you were looking for so I gave your 10 points to the Zimbabwese/Zimbabwans/whatever...

Vlad Antlerkov,
You voted for the Bablylonians but they are already in Civ3. So you still have 10 points left.

Mercator,
In accordance to the rules, your points for the Mali/Songhai vote went to the Mali (Mali and Songhai were too different to combine).

Zeh,
You assigned 200 points while the maximum is 160. I cannot accept your vote. Please vote again and post your new post below, I'll ignore your first vote.

Jer8m8,
FYI, you still have 10 points left.

cyril25376,
FYI, you still have 53 points left.

	15-08-2001 04:43									#3
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Comments about the second thread (BTW Markos - or whoever it was - you closed that one fast! Thnx for that):

Jer8m8,
Sorry, it will be corrected. I already noticed some mistakes earlier and for that reason already did a recount of the first 40 or so posts yesterday (there turned out to be a few minor mix-ups but nothing that had significant impact on the ranking as a whole). A recount of the rest of the posts will be made later (tomorrow or so) but I'll update your correction in the next update regardless. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on that one!

Rasputin, Seau & Gannon,
FYI, you all still have some points left (110, 75 and 40 respectively). I'll hear from you if you still wish to use them.

Brent,
Excellent examples, I'll add those to the introduction. Thanks for the info on the Hmong, I'll need to do some reading up on them... What was 'unusual' about your list was the choices you made: there's lots of 'big civs' out there, such as the Dutch, Turks, Byzantines, Portuguese, etc. and yet your vote goes to relatively 'small' civs like the Hawaiians, Boers, Tibetans or Hmong. By now it turns out you're not the only one with such 'unusual' preferences but it's still odd (in a good way). That's some pretty good Neanderthal city names over there!

Now, I knew this was gonna give trouble. You want the Carthagians and Phoenicians to be seperate civs, others want it to be one. I really don't know how to deal with this but for now the 'unionists' seem to outnumber the 'seperatists', so I'll leave it as it is (united).

Laros,
When the Chinese, Indians and Neanderthals are considered civs, so should the Vikings.

Here's once again the list with left over points, updated to account for the posts in the second thread:

Alfonsus71: 5
Bob Dornan: 140
Colon: 7
cyril25376: 53
Fiera: 10
gannon: 40
Hasdrubal: 20
Jer8m8: 10
Monkspider: 20
Nikolai: 20
Optimizer: 10
Orange: 10
Rasputin: 110
Seau: 75
star mouse: 5
Tis I: 6
Vlad Antlerkov: 10
War4ever: 10

	15-08-2001 05:21									#4
	Tired of ads?

Inca 20
Maya 20
Mongolians 20
Turks 20
Arabs 20
Celts 10
Korean 10
Sioux 10
Portugal 10
Viking 10
Scots 5
Ethiopia 5

	15-08-2001 05:34									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmm, I did? In that case:

Vikings (or, more accurately, Norse): +5
Arabs: +5

And IIRC, the Harappans and the Indus Valley Civilization are one and the same... (At least, they inhabited the same area.) And someone seems to have taken your suggestion for Liechtenstein seriously

	15-08-2001 05:36									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Change mine as follows: Mande -10, Malian +10

It was my intention to emphasize the peoples rather than any particular empire which arose and fell in their history, but I'll settle for 'Malian' if that'll make the points count.

	15-08-2001 08:18									#7
	Got spare money?

quote: I actually have a life and have to work to pay my phone bills and be able to be online in the first place, so I did some sleeping and working and other chores that are part of a 'normal' person's life (you should try it some time if you haven't, it can really be quite interesting )

Hey you are doing great. Hey I thought everyone here was retired from their first job (like me) and now working on their 2nd job (like me).

quote: Since I'm a reasonable man so I'm willing to change this policy but only if you guys are willing to help me out a bit: which Civs should be combined?

Israeli/Hebrew, Yes. Israel has been called a lot of name over the centuries. But since Abraham moved there it has been the land of the Hebrew.

Ottoman/Turks, Yes

Phoenicia/Carthage, Yes

Kush/Nubia, Yes

Eskimo/Innuit?, Don't know enough about them

Hmong, Tunguz, Don't know enough about them

Americans/Yankees/Confederates, Yes.

Scandinavian/Danish/Viking, Yes. Are they not the same people before 1700/1800 AD.

Polynesian vs Maori/Hawaiians, Yes. Hawaiians are descended from the Polynesian

Native Americans, Sioux/Hopi/etc. No.

Hopi were part of the Pueblo Indian tribes, who built house with Stone and Adobe and they built them up to 4 stories tall. The Spanish thought they were Spanish home is the new world. Plus the Pueblo/Hopi lived in New Mexico/Arizona since 700 AD. Their civ has survived for 1301 years in the same place. They still live on the same land.

The Indian of Calif., Oregon, and Washington could be a group.

Nevada, Idaho, Utah, and Colorado. could be group.

Arizona, New Mexico, could be group.

Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, S. Dakota, N. Dakota, Montana, Minnesota, Iowa and Missouri could be a group.

Wisconsin, Michigan, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, Massachusetts, Rhode Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland and West Virginia could be a group.

Virginia, North and South Carolina, Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia.

Last but not lease is Florida. The Seminole Indians. Battle between the US and the Seminole (1818) were lost and won by both side for many year. Some of Seminole never lost to the US and in 1970 the US Gov. awarded $12,347,500.00 for land lost to the US. The War was finely over.

Please don't yell at me. It took over 24 hrs. to post this message. I tried 7 time last night.

	15-08-2001 11:52									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Locutus Markos, Thanks for posting this thread when that other one started to act weird. However, as Stefu said, I can't edit the first post here and thus not post any updates. Would you be so kind as to untop and close this thread and top the new one. TIA...

I tried to point that out to Markos here, but he didn't listen. Always that "I'm the Admin and you don't tell me what to do " style

	15-08-2001 12:28									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Celts 15
Viking 15
Spanish 15
Australians 15
Inca 15
Maya 15
Mongolians 15
Arabs 15
Scots 10
Indonesian 10
Native Americans 10
Aborigines 10

	15-08-2001 12:29									#10
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I will try to make this as easy as possible for you. By the way this list is fantastic. Keep up this fantastic work!


Eight Civs, give 'em each 20 points:

Mongols
Spanish
Dutch
Incas
Vikings
Arabs
Phoenicians
Mayans

TIA

	15-08-2001 13:46									#11
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Austrians?
Austro-Hungarians?


We should rename them to "The Habsburgers"

I, as an Austrian (actually I'm an Austro-Hungarian), have to say that there is actually no civilisation like "The Austrians" before 1918.

The Habsburger family was the family who actually held the crowns of the regions and micro-states now known as Austria.

So actually, there was no Austrian state. The Habsburger familiy
only united the small "states" by having their crowns.

(Carinthia, Salzburg, Tyrol, Hungary, etc...)

However, after some centuries everything was called and united as Austria... (after the micro-rebellion of Hungary later also called Austria-Hungary ... or the K&K monarchy)

Nowadays the Habsburgers are banned, and Austria is only a small f*** state... Not worth to mention! (just kiddin. Austria is cool.)
(The Habsburgers were banned 1918, after the first world war... which they(we) have incited... he he he)

just my opinion..

PS:
I vote for Austria (or "The Habsburgers", if it will be renamed), and give it the maximum points (20.. right?)

Last edited by StSz on 15-08-2001 at 13:54

	15-08-2001 16:09									#12
	Got spare money?

Klingons=160 ...oh wait, joke

Serioulsly, 20 points for each of the civs below...

Spanish
Phoenicians
Arabs
Vikings
Mongols
Dutch
Mayans
Assyrians

	15-08-2001 16:41									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Locutus,

I re-edited my vote count, I'm not sure if you ever saw it or not. Actually I just looked back at that thread and it didn't ever account for my post. I'm not sure why, I posted before the thread was closed. Anyways, take away five from the Incans now giving them 20 and add 5 to the African Civ (Zimbabwee).

To help you out here's my new vote count.

Mongols-20
Spanish-20
Incans-20
Turkey (Ottoman Empire or whatever civ is from that area)-10
Polynesians-20
Mayans-5
Arabs-20
Vikings-5
Zimbabwee (the African civ you picked for me)-15
Austor-Hungarians-5
Portugesse-5
Brazilians-5
Sioux-5
Celts-5

	15-08-2001 17:19									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It's MOL unimportant, but you should merge the votes for Harappan and Indus Valley People - Harappa was its main city.

	15-08-2001 17:25									#15
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by StSz We should rename them to "The Habsburgers"

But the Habsburg were called the "Haus Österreich" (house of Austria) since the baroque ages.

quote: I vote for Austria (or "The Habsburgers", if it will be renamed), and give it the maximum points (20.. right?)

Right, the Austrians were so much more of a Civilization than Mali, Ghana, Assyrians etc., who all range behind it...



Now for something completely different:
Why the f*** do people want another native american "Civ"??? - Even one is too much IMHO.

	15-08-2001 17:57									#16
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Why the f*** do people want another native american "Civ"??? - Even one is too much IMHO.

I want the Incans for two reasons, they were a great civ and there are not any SA (South American) civs included. I want the Sioux because they gave many great battles with the Americans plust there isn't not a west North American civ, so to speak. The Americans will have their starting location in the east on a world map. I want the Mayans because the were a great civ and again there isn't a SA civ included.

	15-08-2001 18:11									#17
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Wernazuma III But the Habsburg were called the "Haus Österreich" (house of Austria) since the baroque ages.

Hmm, actually you are right. But there were no REAL Austrian state

quote: Right, the Austrians were so much more of a Civilization than Mali, Ghana, Assyrians etc., who all range behind it...

hehe... The Austrians had big influence on other civilisations, and their architecture. Just look in Spain, Slovenia and Croatia.
You'll find the typical Austrian architecture.

And HEY! We are EVERYWHERE !!
Nearly nobody knows that a Austrian designed the Euro banknotes and coins (he he he.. with subliminal messages on it)...

Well, and we can't tell you our other plans to dominate the world... But I'll give you a hint: Voicemail

quote: Now for something completely different: Why the f*** do people want another native american "Civ"??? - Even one is too much IMHO.

cuz the Americans (the whole continent) love themself soooo much.... They can't get enough from their own continent, so they forget that there is a world outside.

...

	15-08-2001 18:46									#18
	Remove this text

So here is my list

Irish (20) (Nobody votes for the Irish??? Its fun a war between Scots, English and Irish)
so .. Scots (20)
Dutch (20) (off course, color orange; leader Louis van Gaal! )

Apache (20) with leader Winnetou ! ,Comanche (20) and Sioux (20) (so we can have native american wars ...)

Mongols (20) (whats civ without them ...)
Spanish (20)
Celts (20)
Vikings (20)

And to all dicussing about which civ should be in or out :
... its not about what is historically right, its about what would be fun in a game ... civ is a game ... not a religion nor a lifestyle ... just a game!

Sorry Locutus, youre right:

My list rewriten:

Irish (20) (Nobody votes for the Irish??? Its fun a war between Scots, English and Irish)
so .. Scots (20)
Dutch (20) (off course, color orange; leader Louis van Gaal! )

Apache (20) with leader Winnetou ! ,
Comanche (20) and
Sioux (20) (so we can have native american wars ...)

(so 60 points total)

Mongols (20) (whats civ without them ...)
Vikings (20)

Last edited by Daan on 16-08-2001 at 11:33

	15-08-2001 18:46									#19
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry about the overflow of points , I'll try again:

1.Spanish 10
2.Mongol 10
3.Viking 5
4.Turkish 5
5.Portugal 20
6.Brazil 20
7.Sioux 5
8.Mexican 10
9.Scots 10
10.Inca 10
11.South Africa 10
12.Assyrian 10
13.Dutch 5
14.Israelis 10
15.Vietnamese 10
16.Koreans 10

I expect that's right now!

	15-08-2001 19:49									#20
	Put an end to popups!

Locutus, you still didn't fix my vote. In my first vote, I had =5 for indus valley people, which you have still not updated

	15-08-2001 20:07									#21
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Okay, just my two cents. I'm casting votes to try to expand the civ choice out from a Euro-centric cone (a regrettable but completely understandable historical development, of course). Not that I have anything against Europe, but it would be nice to bring in far-flung civs to the gamer!

1. Mongols/Mongolians: 20 (largest land empire)
2. Incas: 20 (South American eminence)
3. Mayans: 20 (peaceable, developed South American power)
4. Manchurians: 15 (conquerers of China)
5. Koreans: 15 (Northeast Asian culture)
6. Ethiopians: 15 (early African empire)
7. Thai/Siamese: 15 (South Asian culture)
8. Australians: 15 (same story as Americans, but milder)
9. Kazakh: 15 (culture bordering Near/Central Asias and Europe)
10. Amazonians: 10 (geographic inhabitants of the largest river system - not the classical Amazons )

I hope that doesn't offend too many people. I'm aiming more for diversity necessarily than historical merit - after all, Civ is very much a "what-if" type of game.

	15-08-2001 20:36									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Alinestra Covelia 3. Mayans: 20 (peaceable, developed South American power)

That myth again OK, the aztecs beat them in brutality but they had human sacrifice and bloody wars as every other mesoamerican civ

	15-08-2001 20:47									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by StSz And HEY! We are EVERYWHERE !! Nearly nobody knows that a Austrian designed the Euro banknotes and coins (he he he.. with subliminal messages on it)... Well, and we can't tell you our other plans to dominate the world... But I'll give you a hint: Voicemail

You're talking too much. I'll tell Wolfi and Susi

quote: cuz the Americans (the whole continent) love themself soooo much.... They can't get enough from their own continent, so they forget that there is a world outside. ...

They don't even focus on their continent, they really only focus on US territory...

	15-08-2001 20:52									#24
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Poland 10
Tibet 10
Vikings 10
Australia 10
Brazil 10
Indonesia 10
Mongols 10
Sumerians 10
Ethiopia 10
South Afrika 10
Iran 10
Oekraďne 10
Spain 10
Portugal 10
Incas 10
Thai 10

	15-08-2001 21:52									#25
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Here's my vote.

1. Celts 20
2. Spain 20
3. Vikings 20
4. Mongols 20
5. Portuguese 20
6. Dutch 20
7. Polynesians 20
8. Bantu 20

	15-08-2001 23:31									#26
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Down with Polynesians!

Not because I have anything against Polynesia per se, but because... well, can you think of playing on Earth Map with a civ stuck in the middle of a small island? Can you think of AI playing that?

And for same reason, down with Eskimos! Glaciers are really good territory to build a civilization on...

	15-08-2001 23:54									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Stefu Down with Polynesians! Not because I have anything against Polynesia per se, but because... well, can you think of playing on Earth Map with a civ stuck in the middle of a small island? Can you think of AI playing that? And for same reason, down with Eskimos! Glaciers are really good territory to build a civilization on...

For obvious reasons, I am not familiar with the AI in Civ 3, but as for playing the Polynesians, I would find it an interesting challenge to build a city on a 2- or 3- tile island and have to colonize the Pacific with transports. You would undoubtedly have the best navy in the game and a huge Pacific Empire

The Eskimos would be equally interesting. You would have to make do on the glacier and colonize southward into the warmer climate. There, you would expand in many directions to build a northern North American empire. And eventually you would have thawed out the glaciers in the city radii of your northern cities so they could grow like the other cities.

	16-08-2001 01:42									#28
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut For obvious reasons, I am not familiar with the AI in Civ 3, but as for playing the Polynesians, I would find it an interesting challenge to build a city on a 2- or 3- tile island and have to colonize the Pacific with transports. You would undoubtedly have the best navy in the game and a huge Pacific Empire

That's what I'd always do with Japan in civ2, I'd just expand over all of the pacific islands... the computer was never smart enough to figure out how to attack me affectively, though. (though, once they get paratroopers and planes they can start doing some damage)

	16-08-2001 03:48									#29
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Ranking updated. Now updated up to JellyDonut's vote (Woohoo, I finally managed to catch up! ). 90 (valid) votes have been casted (and counted) already...

Rasputin,
FYI, you have 110 points left.

Maquis de Solaq,
You voted for Accra to be included as a civ. Accra is the capitol of Gania, so I assume that if the civ you're referring to isn't the Ganaians themselves, it's a civ very similar to them (a predecessor or whatever), so I merged you vote with the Ganaians. If you think Accra should be included as a seperate civ though, let me know and I'll add them seperately.

Seau,
FYI, you have 75 points left.

gannon,
FYI, you have 40 points left.

Vlad et al,
I've lumped the Harappan and Indus Valley People together, thanks for pointing that out.

Joseph,
Thanks for your insights on civ combining.
I agree with most of them but I'm not sure about Yankee/Confederates, they could be seen as a subgroup of the Americans and, like with other subgroups (Hawaiian, Danish, etc), I tend to agree with Gramphos that they should be kept track of seperately. The Native Americans can probably best be looked at on a case-by-case basis since there aren't that many of them (that are voted for, that is). Your suggestion sounds pretty good, we could use that as a guideline. If I'm not mistaken our current setup (only Sioux and Dakota combined; Anasazi, Hopi, Cherokee, et al not combined) is a fairly good one, but you probably know more about this than I do so let me know if you disagree.

Gramphos,
Hehe, hadn't seen that yet, guess I just overruled Markos in this case - without knowing it or having a mod-status . It would appear that 'my power is superior to yours'

StSz,
FYI, you have 140 points left.
I can understand your point about the Habsburgers (and had there been enough room I would have added it to the existing names) but I still think Austria is a better name. This because the Habsburgers owned a lot of territory outside presentday Austria/Hungary as well. IIRC they at times ruled over (parts of) France, Germany, Spain, Italy, the Netherlands and probably some other countries as well (not even gonna mention Eastern Europe - oops, I just did ). So Habsburgers could be a confusing name as it could refer to so many civs. Also, Austria/Austria-Hungary still refers to the geographical region in which formed the center (and origin) of this Habsburger empire and in which some of the finest cities of Europe are located (Vienna, Salzburg, Budapest, Prague, Bratislava). On top of that, until the 1870s there wasn't a real German or Italian state either, not to mention the Vikings or Celts who never were never a real state!

quote: Nearly nobody knows that a Austrian designed the Euro banknotes and coins (he he he.. with subliminal messages on it)...

Actually, that's a well-known fact over here and we're quite pissed about it: I mean, the Euro is the worst-looking money ever. The Netherlands had the best-looking money in the whole world and now we have to change it in for European unity pecunia, designed by an Austrian designer. An Austrian designer! That's like a German comedian, a Greek rock 'n roll band or a Belgian youth worker...

TechWins,
I'm glad you liked my choice for Zimbabweans (obviously you did, or you wouldn't have given them those 5 points ) BTW, (just nitpicking here ) Mayans weren't South Americans as you imply but came from the Yucatan peninsula in presentday Mexico, which makes them Middle Americans...

Kolpo,
Please do not vote twice. You already voted in part 2 of this discussion, no need to do it again. I was fortunate enough to recognize your name this time but I may not do so next time (with you or someone else) and could easily have counted your vote twice. I'm sure you wouldn't mind but for the accuracy and 'reliability' of this poll it is imperative that this sort of 'cheating' (deliberate or accidental) is avoided.

Daan,

quote: Apache (20) with leader Winnetou ! ,Comanche (20) and Sioux (20) (so we can have native american wars ...)

I'm not sure what you meant by this. Did you only want to give points to the Apache or to the Comanche and Sioux as well? I only gave 20 points to the Apache as giving those other points as well would mean you assigned 40 points too many (200). Let me know if you wish to change this.

Zeh,
Thanks for correcting that. Your vote has been counted now.

Jer8m8,
You have to keep in mind that I live in a different time zone than yours (GMT+1), what seems like a large delay to you really isn't to me. Between posting I'd fix that mistake next update and your post I only slept and worked (judging from the timestamp of your post, I just left work as you posted), so I hadn't even had the chance to update yet. Normally you should expect updates from me once every 24 odd hours (more often in the weekends)...

Alinestra,
Why would anyone be offended by your list, it's a very good one! Besides, everyone is entitled to their own preferences, I think even the most fanatic patriot will realize that... The most frequently voted for civ are the Mongols but there are still 20 people who didn't vote for them. So if your vote insults anyone, at least 20 other votes should as well and you'd be in good company

Stefu,
Personally I think that choosing which civs shouldn't take into account practical considerations like that. The Arabs ought to start out in the middle of the Desert, not a good thing but it doesn't mean the Arabs shouldn't be included. The Phoenicians and Israeli would pretty much have the same tile as starting position, yet they both deserve to be in... Practical problems like that could can solved afterwards, shouldn't affect which civs you include or not. But that's a very personal opinion, I can imagine how others would want to keep it in mind before voting.

	16-08-2001 05:27									#30
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Here are the rest of my votes:

Mongols +15
Hebrew +15
Eskimos +5
Arabs 5
Apache 15
Polynesians 10
Dutch 10