15-09-2001 21:13									#1
	Automatic unit upgrades or disbandings ? Increase Your PM Length

I have not noticed - has anything been said about making units obsolete? Is there any automatic upgrade or disband feature? If we don't disband units, will we still have ancient units wandering around in the year 2000?

	15-09-2001 21:16									#2
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I doubt there will be auto-upgrades, unless there's a wonder equivalent to Leonardo's, which always was pretty unrealistic (but cool). But I don't think anything's been said about the issue.

Don't see why you couldn't have ancient units in the modern age.

	15-09-2001 21:22									#3
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quote: Originally posted by saracen31 I doubt there will be auto-upgrades, unless there's a wonder equivalent to Leonardo's, which always was pretty unrealistic (but cool). But I don't think anything's been said about the issue.

The best way would to have the units change or disband in some turn (When new weapons are discovered you could either set to upgrade all units, and all new requiting to that units will be the new type (in the change period it would have a medium function for all properties))

quote: Don't see why you couldn't have ancient units in the modern age.

As the units need to be filled with new people to not die, and someone rarely would train units into old ways of war

	15-09-2001 23:15									#4
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maybe leo's can ba a minor wonder.

	16-09-2001 00:35									#5
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or maybe it will be like SMAC where you can pay money to upgrade you units to better things

i sure hope so

	16-09-2001 00:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Slax If we don't disband units, will we still have ancient units wandering around in the year 2000?

I suspect that the ADM-stats differs much more from one era to the next, in Civ-3 compared with Civ-2. Just compare standard ancient chariots (1-1-2) and archers (2-1-1) with standard middle-age swordsmen (3-2-1) and knights (4-3-2). An ancient unit (even a civ-specific one) is pretty useless against middle-age - not to mention industrial & modern age combat-units. So I guess, one is more or less forced to upgrade - which is good.

	16-09-2001 01:39									#7
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I'm a little worried about the idea of different ages being greatly different in combat powers. It would be good for the realism factor, but could upset the game balance. I don't want one nation being too powerful and no other nation able to touch it,
it would be good if when one nation reaches a new era or a certain year comes then a new era comes for the whole world.
Maybe this new era would somehow balance out things, perhaps allowing technoliges to be reserched at higher quicker rates for all nations.. needs more thought (When i'm not half asleep).

AdmiralPJ

	16-09-2001 02:12									#8
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I see no reason for automatic disbandings. Would you like your 200 dragoons to just wander home just because you finnally figured out cavalry?

defeintly not a safe thing!

But automatic upgrades would be terribly unbalancing.

Hopefully there won't be any reccurence of the ctp fiasco.

	16-09-2001 05:20									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral PJ I'm a little worried about the idea of different ages being greatly different in combat powers. It would be good for the realism factor, but could upset the game balance. I don't want one nation being too powerful and no other nation able to touch it, it would be good if when one nation reaches a new era or a certain year comes then a new era comes for the whole world. Maybe this new era would somehow balance out things, perhaps allowing technoliges to be reserched at higher quicker rates for all nations.. needs more thought (When i'm not half asleep). AdmiralPJ

I disagree. There should be enough of a difference between the different eras that the civilizations in the later eras have at least something of an advantage over those who have not gotten that far. If I have researched my way into the renaissance, my troops should have a distinct advantage over those of a civ. stuck in the anchient era. Yes, there should still be a chance that a large enough mass of ancients will wipe out a newer unit. But one on one, there should be no question who is going to win most of the time.

Now, I am not saying that changing from ancient to medieval should instantly give a civ an unbeatable advantage. It should be more gradual then that. And yes, I do think that if I can ramrod myself to the industrial era when everyone else is stuck in the ancients, I should be stomping on them.

But to advance everyone else just because I have broken a threshold? That doesn't make much sense. Yes, I know that in modern times, there is a lot of research and technology that anyone and everyone eventually has access to. But that is a function of modern communications. For much of human history, travelling long distances limited communication and the spread of ideas.

Consider the pre-Columbian Americas. They were completely isolated from the rest of the world for thousands of years. Their technological advancement was completely disjuncted from everything everyone else in the world was doing.

Now if you said that neighboring civilizations with which communication existed might get some small research bonus from proximity, I could be more agreeable to that. Communications exists, and unless one of those nations has closed their borders to the other nation, or all other nations, some movement of knowledge will inevitably occur.


As for auto upgrades or disbanding... I'm bleegh on both. There should be some investment in time and resources that precedes the upgrade. And the thought of loosing units just because a newer unit that I might never actually use appears? Double bleegh.

	16-09-2001 14:20									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Kc7mxo But automatic upgrades would be terribly unbalancing.

The upgrade could be executed whenever a unit arrives at a city.

	16-09-2001 14:50									#11
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Actually a unit must receive supplies even when it not is in the city, and upgrading them would be realistic, if it took some years, and not all units upgraded in the same time.
In the upgrade process it should for the turns an upgrade would take every turn get x% of the new units abilities. I.E. if a unit that moves one step is made obsolete by one that moves two steps and the change would take three turns before it was upgraded. This would be how it was (I’m just focusing on movement, but the same should apply for all abilities)
Turn0: You discover the new unit; no upgrade has started
Movement: 1
Movements on road: 3
Turn1: Upgrade started
Movement: 1 1/3
Movements on road: 4
Turn2: Upgrade continued
Movement: 1 2/3
Movements on road: 5
Turn3: Upgrade finished
Movement: 2
Movements on road: 6

	16-09-2001 15:05									#12
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quote: Originally posted by lockstep The upgrade could be executed whenever a unit arrives at a city.

AND you must pay an upgrade-price, as well - although a worthwhile one comparing with building from scratch. Also, this upgrade price is only available after you have built yourself the appropriate mini-wonder (available only for those who actually battle-exercise their combat-units). Finally, you cannot upgrade any unit-type to any different updated unit-type, of course.

Bombers only to advanced bombers
Early wooden warships only to advanced wooden warships
Infantry defence-units only to more advanced infantry defence-units
Early tanks only to modern tanks

You get the idea. Also, any combat-status falls down one step, in the process: from elite -> veteran, and from veteran -> regular. (sorry - otherwise Kc7mxo is right; this automatic upgrade-feature becomes too unbalancing, like it was in Civ-2).

	17-09-2001 01:43									#13
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quote: Originally posted by jerkwaterbox or maybe it will be like SMAC where you can pay money to upgrade you units to better things i sure hope so

Did the units have to be in cities to be upgraded? Is this the most likely method for Civ III, or does it not fit with the known features?

I'd like to see some kind of automatic obsolescence (and disbanding) of units after, say, 2 generations of new tech (particular to that type of unit). Meanwhile, the units can be put towards building new units.

I guess there has been no official mention of this topic by Firaxis.

	17-09-2001 03:06									#14
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I'm not in favor of auto-disbanding at all...why do that? I frequently have warriors/phalanxes in my cities, even after getting the advances for archers, pikemen, legions, etc. And the trusty horseman can be useful for a long time.

It's all a trade-off: if I think I'm safe from enemies in the central heart of my empire, and I would rather build universities or stock exchanges than new units, it should be my choice.

	17-09-2001 03:54									#15
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As I have said many times, it is strategically unsound to allow any form of in the field instantaneous upgrades. Even if only one unit is upgraded per turn, you can still have cavalry (not to hard to deal with) magically transformed into armor (a killing machine) in the middle of a battle. People would begin to plan their upgrades for maximum surprise value.

Instead, I would propose that the upkeep for obsolete units increase the more obselete they become. It would cost a lot for the US army to keep around musketeers, as their equipment is no longer manufactured in bulk and it would be hard to keep men in the service when it's obvious how ineffective musketmen are in modern combat.

Rule of thumb: Don't make anything the player will want to do anyway automatic; that will just take control away from the player and unbalance the game.

	17-09-2001 05:54									#16
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quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 As I have said many times, it is strategically unsound to allow any form of in the field instantaneous upgrades. Even if only one unit is upgraded per turn, you can still have cavalry (not to hard to deal with) magically transformed into armor (a killing machine) in the middle of a battle. People would begin to plan their upgrades for maximum surprise value.....

I completely agree. My idea above meant that units could only be upgraded in cities, BUT, units that are not upgraded, where ever they are, will become automatically disbanded when totally obsolete (they are given a long time before this happens).

I propose this because, while it is has always been smart gameplay (as saracen31 mentioned) , is just looks dumb for ancient units to still be around.

	17-09-2001 08:25									#17
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I still disagree - it may look stupid, but the Polish had cavalry in WWII and the British used fishing boats at Dunkirk. Did they have the technology for more? Yeah, but those old units came in handy (at least for the British ) and could come in handy for you in a game of Civ. Use em as cannon-fodder for barbarians, use em as sentries along a coast.

Let me decide when to get rid of my obsolete units. I don't have a major problem with obsolete units eventually being disbanded, but I'd prefer to make the decision myself.

	17-09-2001 11:29									#18
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Id agree with Saracen. I would prefer to keep my options open regarding my units. If i *really* wanted a bunch of spear-weilding guys wandering around my kingdom and im happy to keep paying their wages each month, then i *should* be allowed to keep a bunch of guys walking around weilding spears However, upgrading them should only be allowed inside a city (or maybe colony), and could prove interesting regarding resources. But i want any upgrading and/or disbanding to be MY and ONLY MY decision

	17-09-2001 11:44									#19
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I don't think the program should go ahead doing things without the player's consent. Especially disbanding. A lot of cities can be left undefended if that's the case.

I like SMAC's system where a player can pay to upgrade units at a fraction of the cost of building from scratch.

	17-09-2001 12:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger I like SMAC's system where a player can pay to upgrade units at a fraction of the cost of building from scratch.

Yes, in SMAC this item is well taken care of. Having never played Civ2 (shame on me ) I don't know how the Leo's Workshop wonder works, I don't know if my following suggestion is useful at all: what if Leo's WS would function like the Nanofactory Secret Project in SMAC; halves the cost of upgrading units, and allows the unit to heal completely in one turn (regardless of the unit's location).

	17-09-2001 13:15									#21
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I think auto-upgrading would be way too strong an ability to have for free. Just do some research and voila: boombastic units everywhere.

I propose that there should be a cost in time and expenses, like others mentioned, but also a drawback: upgraded units should be weak versions of newly built units.

Militarism is too easy already anyway.

	17-09-2001 18:21									#22
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what about an upgrade thing like smac but in a city its a fraction to do so but more or the same as building in the battlefield

	17-09-2001 18:31									#23
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We want upgrades that won't bias combat in the field, still have units a little out of date, but don't have ancient units in the modern era.

How about this. If any unit is more than two upgrades behind it gets a single upgrade to still be slightly outdated.

E.g. When you discover musketeer, all phalanxes get upgraded to pikemen. Or when you discover crusaders, horsemen get upgraded to knights. This could happen for free, but won't greatly affect front line troops, which should not be this outdated.

	17-09-2001 19:23									#24
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Originally posted by seer_98

quote: How about this. If any unit is more than two upgrades behind it gets a single upgrade to still be slightly outdated.

I don't have a problem with that - although I don't know why it's necessary. The only reason I can see is for purely aesthetic reasons.

	17-09-2001 20:03									#25
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Upgrading, in the sense of a unit "converting to another unit," is silly in general.

Guys, we already have an upgrade feature in Civ2: It's called disbanding the unit and building a new one. You disband a cavalry for half its value in shields, and then spend the rest of the cost of the armor (or whatever unit you are building) and voila, a cavalry to an armor.

This is the best method because it is simple (no weakened versions of units or "proto-units") it is realistic (You can't upgrade a horeseman to a chariot, you just have to transfer whatever materials you have and build a chariot) and it does not take the enemy by surprise. Why invent some new system for a process that Civ2 already covers?

	17-09-2001 20:44									#26
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The SMAC system was a vast improvement over Civ2's disband and build system. Though it was overpowered. Upgrading an army a continent away from your cities is pure fantasy even for a game like Civilization. It should be limited to upgrading only in cities.

	17-09-2001 20:54									#27
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Would you mind explaining to me how the SMAC system works, and how is it fundamentally any different from CIv2 disbanding?

	17-09-2001 21:23									#28
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You don't disband units. You simply pay money per unit to convert your old unit to a newer unit. You also are only allowed to stay within the same category as the old unit, offensive vs. defensive, infantry versus tanks, etc. It's a much more reasonable solution then Civ2. Civ2's is a royal pain in the ass without Leo's and Civ should not give up on successful and realistic improvements of SMAC (upgrading is independent of the sci-fi element of SMAC, unlike Social Engineering choices)

	17-09-2001 22:31									#29
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I would like to see the SMAC based system where you can pay to upgrade your units to newer versions. It would be too much micromanagement to mess around searching for old units and taking them in to be disbanded and replaced. And there is no point in losing the experience accrued by your men. Perhaps one thing they should make sure of is that units can only be upgraded in cities, although this may cause too much complication (units holding overseas colonies, for example)

	17-09-2001 23:20									#30
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Across the seas colonies are useless without a city with a harbor to connect to your empire, so upgrading such units on defense still poses no problem, there must be a friendly city nearby.