17-09-2001 23:46									#1
	Firaxis, give the public what they want!! Suffering from ads?

I don't think many people are satisfied with the current leaders. Here are some alterations which I think are suitable...


England/Britain - Winston Churchill instead of Elizabeth I. He is much more widely recognised as a great leader by the British.

Russia - Joseph Stalin instead of Cat the great. C'mon, he was the leader in Civ1. Well, if you won't include him as he isn't PC, then at least have Lenin.

France - Napolean Who wants Joan of bloody Arc? Napolean is much more famous...

Germany - Adolf Hitler OK, REALLY not PC, but when you hear the words 'German leader' who do you think of? I rest my case...

Greece - Alexander NOT THE WUSSY BLOKE IN THE PIC. Firaxis are being un-PC here as he was supposed to be gay so they haven't made him macho anymore...

The rest are OK, but it seems many countries were given rubbishy leaders because Firaxis wanted to make about half the leaders women for PC reasons, but in reality the great leaders were mainly men. Plus, it is mostly men who play civ games and who wants to play as a woman?

	17-09-2001 23:59									#2
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.....exactly.. excpet maybe for hitler, then again he is the most famous but its too un-pc....

	18-09-2001 00:27									#3
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Elizabeth isn't that bad of a leader and Hitler will NOT be in the game.

Here's what I would like to see for each nation:

The Babylonians - ???
The Chinese - Confucious (he may not have been a leader but he was very inspirational, sorry if I mispelled his name)
The Egyptians - Ramsess III
The Greeks - Alexander the Great
The Persians - Xerxes
The Americans - Franklin Roosevelt
The Aztecs - ???
The English - Winston Churchill or Elizabeth I (take your pick)
The French - Napleon or Louis XVI (again take your pick)
The Germans - ???
The Iroquois - ???
The Japanese - ???
The Romans - Julius Caesar
The Russians - Joeseph Stalin
The Zulus - ???

All the ones with question marks are Civs that I don't have much knowledge on their leaders or for some reason I just can't remember some of their great leaders.

	18-09-2001 01:19									#4
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Cyrus the Great should be the best leader for Persia.

Napoleon is more suitable the Jean D'Arc as the French leader.

Alexander should not look like one degenerated Roman senator.

Zulu has only one great leader: Shaka.

Germans had 2 Fredericks: Barbarossa, the Great

As for Russia, even Peter the Great was a better choice the Catherine the Nymphomaniac.

	18-09-2001 01:48									#5
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Napoleon- French Leader ... Yes,

Joan of Arc- NO: she was never the Queen of France

	18-09-2001 02:02									#6
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The Babylonians - Either Hammurabi or Nebuchadnezzar.
The Chinese - Zhu Yuan-Zhang or Shih Huang-ti.
The Egyptians - Ramesses III.
The Greeks - Pericles, Solon, Aristotle, or Menelaus (yeah, I know Menelaus probably never lived...)
The Persians - Xerxes or Cyrus the Great.
The Americans - Well, you could get into a mighty debate over this one. I'd go with FDR or TR.
The Aztecs - Montezuma.
The English - Winston Churchill or Elizabeth I.
The French - Napoleon.
The Germans - Frederick Barbarossa or Kaiser Wilhelm II. (Maria Theresa was actually Prussian.)
The Iroquois - Tecumseh.
The Japanese - Tokugawa, Yamato, Isoroku Yamamoto... At the risk of sounding un-PC, I'd recommend Hideki Tojo. (Yes, that Hideki Tojo.)
The Romans - Marcus Aurelius, Hadrian, Julius Caesar, Scipio...
The Russians - Lots of good examples. Peter the Great, Michael Romanov, Ivan IV, Vlad Lenin, Andrei Sakharov...
The Zulus - Shaka Zulu.

	18-09-2001 02:32									#7
	Iroquois Put an end to popups!

Tecumseh was not of the Iroquois. He was a Shawnee and they were displaced by the Iroquois (and treaties), but were not part of the Iroquois nation. Hiawatha is probably the best-known Iroquois leader. Ely Parker is another.

As for Hitler, he was just too evil to be used in a mere game. There are other German leaders to choose from. Yes, the vast majority think immediately of Hitler when you mention the topic of German leaders, but I'd leave him out. Stalin was also quite evil. Just my two cents worth.

	18-09-2001 02:48									#8
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I doubt that they are suddenly going to go back and make a 3D model from scratch when they already said that they aren't adding anymore but polishing the game. So you are stuck with the leaders they deemed appropriate.

Adolph Hitler? I doubt that's what a German thinks of when someone asks him/her to name a leader of Germany...

	18-09-2001 03:32									#9
	Re: Firaxis, give the public what they want!! Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by red_jon I don't think many people are satisfied with the current leaders. Here are some alterations which I think are suitable... England/Britain - Winston Churchill instead of Elizabeth I. He is much more widely recognised as a great leader by the British. Russia - Joseph Stalin instead of Cat the great. C'mon, he was the leader in Civ1. Well, if you won't include him as he isn't PC, then at least have Lenin. France - Napolean Who wants Joan of bloody Arc? Napolean is much more famous... Germany - Adolf Hitler OK, REALLY not PC, but when you hear the words 'German leader' who do you think of? I rest my case... Greece - Alexander NOT THE WUSSY BLOKE IN THE PIC. Firaxis are being un-PC here as he was supposed to be gay so they haven't made him macho anymore... The rest are OK, but it seems many countries were given rubbishy leaders because Firaxis wanted to make about half the leaders women for PC reasons, but in reality the great leaders were mainly men. Plus, it is mostly men who play civ games and who wants to play as a woman?

Looks like you prefer men to women...DOH!

	18-09-2001 03:42									#10
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i think bismarck should be german leader, ndai
he was a wonderful leader who unified germany, and then made it a world power. thanks to his excellant ideas and projects (modern military officers academy, modern RR system, etc.)

	18-09-2001 03:54									#11
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All the leaders from Europe can't be modern. It wouldn't be right. Thats why they chose Joan of Arc, and Cathy. Im surprised they chose Bismark tho.

	18-09-2001 05:28									#12
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i would honestly prefer Hitler over Bismark.

i know both of their histories and accomplishments, and without meandering into the evil genocide, Hitler did more for Germany.

	18-09-2001 05:30									#13
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quote: Originally posted by TechWins The Americans - Franklin Roosevelt

I don't want that commie SOB running MY nation.

Hrumph.

Ronald Reagan!!! Thomas Jefferson!!!

-Alex

	18-09-2001 07:23									#14
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The only ones I'd change in Civ 3:

Persia: Cyrus the Great
France: Napoleon
China: anyone besides Mao Tse-Tung

	18-09-2001 07:41									#15
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Reagan.

	18-09-2001 11:15									#16
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American Leader? James Madison.
He designed the constitution.

Or even MLK? Why not? He may not have been president but he got a whole lot more done than most.

Jefferson wanted a nation of yeoman farmers. Idiot.

FDR? Concentration camps. Say no more.

Reagan? Uh, why exactly? Is the 'World's Biggest Deficit' going to be a wonder or something? (save him for a cold war scenario)

As for Joan of Arc - give me a break. The Frenchies have to have Napoleon.

	18-09-2001 15:15									#17
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i will need to defend bismarck. what i want to say is that he made germany a modern power and kicked the sh** out of france. also, i dont think anyone could say that hitler did more for germany than bismarck. hitler mass-murdered 6m jews, gypsys and catholic preists. one of the things that most disgusted americans liberating death camps was bins upon bins full of baby shoes. NOT ONLY DID HITLER CAUSE, SUPPORT AND GLORICIZE THE HOLOCAUST, BUT LOOK WHAT HE DID TO GERMANY ITSELF. IT WENT INTO WWII A SUPERPOWER AND CAME OUT A POOR, BOMBED OUT COUNTRY WITH A GENERATION OF MEN GONE. AFTER WWII IT WAS, OR WEST GERMANY WAS DEPENDANT ON THE US MARSHALL PLAN

unlike in hitlers germany, in bismarcks

quote: The German state was not a despotism, and the German citizen was not terrorized.

quote: In nineteenth-century European history only Napoleon can be compared with Bismark as an influential and successful political personality. Bismarck gave political meaning to the idea of being German, and he created a prosperous and respected German state. In 1849 a German historian had written that "the power or weakness of Germany determines the fate of Europe." Bismarck's Germany was an important factor in the international stability that characterized Europe during the last quarter of the nineteenth century.

Some useful sites:

A printed lecture on Bismarck’s reign:
http://mars.wnec.edu/~grempel/cours...12bismarck.html

A text exercise on Bismarck:
http://hkuhist2.hku.hk/firstyear/Share/shareE14.html

http://www.kingston.ac.uk/~hs_s134/bislechnd1.htm

	18-09-2001 17:23									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant American Leader? James Madison. He designed the constitution. Or even MLK? Why not? He may not have been president but he got a whole lot more done than most. Jefferson wanted a nation of yeoman farmers. Idiot. FDR? Concentration camps. Say no more. Reagan? Uh, why exactly? Is the 'World's Biggest Deficit' going to be a wonder or something? (save him for a cold war scenario) As for Joan of Arc - give me a break. The Frenchies have to have Napoleon.

I could deal with James Madison, except he's not nearly as famous as the other guys. I doubt any non-Americans (or even many Americans unfortunatly) would have heard of him. So his best bud, Jefferson would be a better pick. Same ideology, same connections to the founding documents of this nation.

I could deal with MLK, but he was never a president so I don't think he'd count. Neither was Joan of Arc, so that decision baffles me.

Heck, if we want a non-president lets go for Barry Goldwater!! Yea!!! Hehehe.

	18-09-2001 17:27									#19
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quote: All the leaders from Europe can't be modern. It wouldn't be right. Thats why they chose Joan of Arc, and Cathy. Im surprised they chose Bismark tho.

ok, they don't need to be all modern, but you can choose other medieval/renaissance leaders than these two. Louis XIV for France and Peter the Great for Russia seem far better to me...

	18-09-2001 18:13									#20
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jdd said:
"i will need to defend bismarck. what i want to say is that he made germany a modern power and kicked the sh** out of france."

Pretty much everyone has kicked the crap out of France at one point or another. Belgium too.

Mr. Pleasant (if that *is* your real name ), no fan of Reagan are you! We differ greatly on that, but I would say that he would not be a good choice as an American civ leader. He is recent and (because of that) there are still many who think (wrongly) that he was a lousy President. You also raise a good point about FDR. Personally, I'd pick Washington and Lincoln. As has been raised before in these forums, America has never had a female leader and there are really no candidates for the position in civ 3. Eleanor Roosevelt? Please! Her biggest contribution in civ 2 was being the ugliest leader in the game.

Ozzy, we apparently share political ideologies. Install Goldwater and you would have low corruption levels and be the first civ to develop nukes You can always add him to your game anyhow. Maybe you could create a conservative modpack with Goldwater and Reagan as leader choices for the USA.

	18-09-2001 22:00									#21
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quote: Pretty much everyone has kicked the crap out of France at one point or another. Belgium too.

hahahahaha. u got me there, but still ...

	18-09-2001 23:22									#22
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There is a screenshot of Bismarck so he will be leader.

Uberkrux, perhaps Hitler is the *only* german leader you can think of ?
Catherine the Great as well as Bismarck simply were great statesmen
who - through diplomacy, war and clever economical management turned the tides
in favor of their country. The odds were against them
But I have no objections - if you want to play Hitler simply edit... *grin* - you know.
Hitler doesn't fit the scientific attribute but that's my own humble opinion.

Arent

	18-09-2001 23:55									#23
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Isn't it too late now for Firaxis to change this? The arts people would have to do brand new leader art.

Perhaps, for an expansion pack!

	19-09-2001 00:31									#24
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is this beat up france day? hasn't there been enough of that?

	19-09-2001 03:10									#25
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no

	19-09-2001 03:11									#26
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Chinese- Chu Yuanchang... Not Zhu Yuhanzhang or Zhu Yuanchang... I am lead to believe that Chu is the true name of Yuanchang, at least according to the "Compact World History" book

...corrections ...corrections

Thomas Jefferson- American Leader
President, Author, Intelligent Man

	19-09-2001 04:28									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Chinese- Chu Yuanchang... Not Zhu Yuhanzhang or Zhu Yuanchang... I am lead to believe that Chu is the true name of Yuanchang, at least according to the "Compact World History" book

Actually, since the Chinese use characters instead of letters, both spellings are probably correct. Just like Zhou and Chow are translations of the same character.

quote: Originally posted by DarkCloud Thomas Jefferson- American Leader President, Author, Intelligent Man

...and don't forget slave holder.

	19-09-2001 23:35									#28
	Re: Firaxis, give the public what they want!! Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by red_jon The rest are OK, but it seems many countries were given rubbishy leaders because Firaxis wanted to make about half the leaders women for PC reasons, but in reality the great leaders were mainly men. Plus, it is mostly men who play civ games and who wants to play as a woman?

Perhaps they chose female leaders because mostly men play civ games.

	20-09-2001 00:22									#29
	Re: Re: Firaxis, give the public what they want!! Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Edward Perhaps they chose female leaders because mostly men play civ games.

Is that why they made Elizabeth, Catherine, etc so attractive?

	20-09-2001 00:32									#30
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George Washington and Lincoln were excellent American leaders. Personally, I want Cleveland or Teddy Rosevelt, two of the best American leaders, and not as well known. They should rule!

Also, Hitler shouldn't be leader of Germany. Scaring away their greatest minds, starting a disasterous war, insane, and ultimatly losing a good chunk of land in peace treaty.