01-05-2001 20:33									#1
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I never use horsemen. I rather train chariots and elephants instead, they are stronger and better to use. Only barbarians and some other civs use horsemen, I only use them when I am in desperate situation and almost out of money. They are only good for attacking warriors and other horsemen alongside with caravans and diplomats. What are your "worthless units"?

	01-05-2001 20:55									#2
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I'm gonna put destroyers on my useless list. Their attack at the time they usually come around is in-adequate, as crusiers and battelships are usaually right around the corner. I guess they could be used for watching a coastline, but not much else. Never build the useless hunks of metal.

	02-05-2001 09:39									#3
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I have a sort of feeling that there should be a good use for a helicopter. But I haven't found it. So I'll say that one.

I build more horsemen than any other unit save warriors (leaving the diplomatic corps, camels and settlers to one side).

If I'm going to stay in Monarchy for a while I find they pack as much punch as I need for defending against A1 units and at just 20 shields they are way cheap. They can kill off the chariots and ellies you like plus barb archers. They are not far short of an even money chance against a plalanx on flatland.

They do have trouble with legions and, later on, with knights. So they need to be used in conjunction with forts on good defensive terrain with a phalanx or pikeman or two in attendance.

Destroyers are fast and have a long line of sight. They roll back the last vestiges of the fog of war well and I like to convoy my transports with them.

For some reason they don't seem to get made up to vets with anything like the ease of the ironclad and they have a tendency to lose an ironclad/destroyer single ship duel (perhaps because the ironclad will probably be vet). And I agree they arrive at a time when other naval units are either available or will soon arrive. So they are low on my priorities too.

	01-05-2001 23:05									#5
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Chariots. I never build -em.

	01-05-2001 23:09									#6
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Horsemen are great! They are dirt cheap, and with Leo's Workshop, they end up cavalry. In between they can take out any attacking 2-move unit. Also, if you lose one to barbarians from a hut, or to neighbors who didn't appreciate you slaughtering their villagers, big deal, twenty shields.

As Drake says, helicopters can be useful in certain situations. They make good support units to clean up attack zones, tho - pick off partisans, take out the primary defender behind walls, and such.

Destroyers are worthless - cruisers are only turns away, ironclads can usually sink them.

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

	01-05-2001 23:25									#7
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I have a long list of "practically never build", but this forum keeps educating me (slowly) and I have to keep crossing them off the list. Caravans were previously built for the fun of exploration, as far as I am concerned. I learned recently about the power of explorers. For all I know, chariots and destroyers reduce the number of beakers you need for each new tech, providing you are a white civ, playing OCC, on a Thursday (vers 2.42, large map).

	01-05-2001 23:29									#8
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Horses are the first great explorer, and is needed for Dragoons.
I like Dragoons.
Ignoring horses is a big mistake.

Legions are a piece of garbage though.

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It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe

	02-05-2001 01:08									#11
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I don't build Crusaders. They are too weak on the defense, so I rather have Knights. By the time I get Crusaders, Dragoons soon to be had, so I rather build Knights and watch them upgrade to Dragoons. I have had some pretty good conquests with hordes of Knights/Dragoons/Cavalry (depending on the era). Right now, I am finishing up a King Level game where most of my conquest was done by Dragoons and Cavalry, with Armor showing up with most of the world conquered, and plenty of good Cavalry adequate for the job.

Got some wierd battles with Cavalry and Armour (and maybe an Artillery or Howitzer), supported by maybe a fighter or bomber, attacking walled cities with Phalanxes, Crusaders, and Musketeers, occasionally catching an ironclad or destroyer in port. It seems like the AI doesn't scrap obsolete units to help build more up to date units when it doesn't have Leo's.

	02-05-2001 01:08									#12
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While there are many units I usually never build... every unit can serve a purpose. Even explorers have their uses

	02-05-2001 01:19									#13
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At the top of my useless unit list is the Frigate. I allways have Steam Engine first and choosing between Frigate and Ironcad is a no brainer. Why build it? Because it can carry one unit? So what.

	02-05-2001 04:44									#14
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hellies are good scouts but then if you haven't seen the map by then your in trouble....

Legions i never build .... i will bribe barb one though

aircraft carriers...... they may have changed the way we fight but in civ they are virtually useless as the ai will never build them

partisans...... please i can use another unit to ignore zone of control....

Horses are great......... the best unit of course is the warrior......with the upgrade to rifleman....at a cost of 10g well call me cheap!!!

	02-05-2001 05:01									#15
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no unit is really worthless. but towards the bottom of the list are explorers, and subs, and tiritemes... especially tiritemes the only way those units are worth while is with leo.. or if you really want a boat that will sink...

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(((|)))
My Empire usually is the best, yet ive only one once..

	02-05-2001 11:43									#16
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It sounds like what's "useless" depends on your playing style. For me, as a peace-loving democratic leader, many war-making units are useless -- in that I won't use them. I even -- here comes heresy -- prefer destroyers to ironclads, because I'm rarely at war at that point in the game but I am exploring; EST's point about destroyers and the fog of war is a good one.

That being said, my nominee for useless unit is the partisan (useless to build, of course; I love the NON partisan). By the time you get it, you should be able to build stronger offensive units, stronger defensive units, and negotiate zones of control in other ways. The one circumstance in which it could be useful seems so specific (trying to move through a mountain range filled with other civs' units) that it hardly seems to qualify an a use. In second place is the legion, for much the same reason: everything it can do, another contemporary unit can do better.

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Dig trenches, with our men being killed off like flies? There isn't time to dig trenches. We'll have to buy them ready made. Here, run out and get some trenches.
-- Rufus T. Firefly, the original rush-builder

	02-05-2001 17:07									#17
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But the AI loves destroyers. 5 mins after the tech is available, at least one civ will develop swarms of destroyers and you have to spend ages watching them move around in circles. And then they all stack up waiting for one good hit from a battleship "6 units destroyed" Har har har

	02-05-2001 19:26									#18
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I agree about chariots. The extra cost over horsemen just doesn't buy anything worth having. In general I don't build legions either (but, yes, I too bribe barb ones). But I sometimes rush one when a gang of barbs with a leader in tow turn up. If you can confront them somewhere where there is a good defensive square you may get the chance to use the legion to kill the free barb unit and then successfully defend against the one accompanying his chief. Meanwhile your horse hovers on the fringe of the battle to pick off the leader as he retreats.

Even if your legion is unlucky and loses he is virtually certain to leave the barb accompanying the chief well in the red so you can safely allow another unit to be attacked and then pick the chief as before. If you keep the legion this represents a healthy profit and if you don't, 150 gold still leaves you ahead (and secure).

I'll also build a couple of legions when I find one of the warlike civs is a close neighbour and I don't manage to pen them in successfully. All out early attack is sometimes then the only game in town. The combination of legion, catapult and settler is effective when the enemy is close at hand.

I must see if I can profit from the comments made on helicopters.

Start using an explorer to tip huts with and I predict you'll subsequently build one early in every game with a sizeable map.

Couldn't get by without triremes. It's nice when caravels come along but that's a longish wait. And the early trireme is very likely to continue serviceable - in a ship chain or linking continents across narrow straights - even without Leo's.

	02-05-2001 20:00									#19
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Are Fanatics good for anything? I have never built one (although I have gotten one or two when bribing a city) and they seem kind of weak compared to armour and marines. My tanks just roll over them with no problem at all. Even my Cavalry handles them with no problem.

	02-05-2001 20:35									#20
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Partizans just slow down my advances when they condense round the city I just conquered. But the same thing happens when somebody takes my city so they are really not so bad. Because of their historical importance they have to be in the game.

	03-05-2001 09:31									#21
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I like the peaceful style as well. On my list are some things like horses, chariots, (elephants make a good active defence) crusaders, knights, dragoons, caravels, frigates, gallions (I usually only build trimemes and have them explore the world, not worrying about upgrading them if I don't have Leo's), cruisers, destroyers (I just wait until battleship and build those), fighters, anything stealth, helicopters, paratroopers (I never get that far), partisans (though I keep them if someone takes one of my cities and I take it back), catapults, cannons, and... < scratches head >, I think that is about it, though I sometimes build one or two of some in any given game depending on the situation.

Also, warriors and horsemen are nice for incremental rush-buy.

	02-05-2001 22:05									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I usually don't build catapults or cannon, unless the AI has built railroads to the city gates. Then I can move them to the city walls and attack in the same turn. Otherwise, they have to sit out there one turn and most likely get killed by the city's defenders. By the time I can get artillery, the AI has built some RRs and I can start blasting away at their cities.
[This message has been edited by towigg (edited May 02, 2001).]

	03-05-2001 00:44									#24
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I have never found a satisfactory use for Marines. I have never encountered a city on a single square which could not be attacked very effectively with air units or simply nuked to allow a Paratrooper to drop in.

	03-05-2001 01:07									#26
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Does anyone build cruise missiles? Even if they destroy the target, they are gone, and are expensive to build. I have had vet battleships withstand attacks by 6 or 7 cruise missiles from the AI. Even if the AI sunk the Battleship this way, I have made the AI waste a lot of resources just to sink my one Battleship. And all of my Battleships are vets, since I build them only in cities with Port Facilities.

	03-05-2001 02:42									#27
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Marines, explorers, frigates - totally useless
Chariots, legions - almost totally useless

	03-05-2001 05:04									#28
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The AI cheats and gets infinite free cruise missiles. Watch the AI get those cruise missiles as soon as it discovery rocketry, too. Best tested out on the ww2 scenario plsying as Allies.

Lot's of units like archers and even horsemen I never used to build or use, but now playing 2x2x duels all the time building horses ealry on is the only way to go, and I ususally get a few archers from huts which I can use to good effect against my opponent . Even explorers can be useful in certain situations, to pressure your opponent into defending his cities. I usually never build archers, chariots, legions, but they're nice to get out of huts. I find marines, partisans, frigates to be useless units, although not in mp cos I've never got that far

	03-05-2001 07:55									#29
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I have not found any unit that is useless in this game. There is always a circumstance in which i have used one or another. A few of the units may only be useful for stepwise rush building, but at one time or another I have built all the units. The one I probably build the least is the cruise missile though with fighter in a close second.

	03-05-2001 08:25									#30
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to me fanatics are the least useful, i very rarely build any at all. i'll build other units with better offense or defense instead.

as for cruise missiles, i'll build and use them in certain scenarios to soften up well-defended cities that my howies can't get to yet.