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East Street Trader
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London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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Two little things which I've noticed recently.
The first concerns advanced tribes. You know how you sometimes find them and they are already size three or more with one or a number of improvements already built? Well I have noticed recently that it is the player's discovery of Invention that triggers the finding of the developed advanced tribes. Sort of pay off I suppose for the fact that after Invention you get no more advances from huts.
Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start.
For what little it is worth I have long suspectd (from nothing more than gameplay experience) that the advanced tribe outcome gets an edge where the hut tipped is the first on a continent with no cities.
Anyway, this observation has been enough to change my attitude to researching Invention. I always used to want to go for it as soon as available because it is an important branch in the tech tree leading on to some vital techs which it pays to get early. But I usually held back where I had plenty of huts to tip (not uncommon for me as I defer tipping after founding a capital til I can do it with a specialist team).
Just now, though, I'm going straight for it. Just love advanced tribes. Just love developed advanced tribs even more.
The second point is a small one. I give exploration a high priority throughout but the time it really matters above almost everything is in the opening phase if you share your continent with another civ. Find them early and you have more options. If they've got two or three cities down it is pretty well a sure thing that you will have to face the distraction of an early war of conquest.
Well the point is the message which you get that barbs have spawned or landed. It is only the civ with the nearest city which gets the message.
So my notion is to look out for early barbs appearing out of the fog of war when I have notpreviously received such a message. When that happens I can conclude that there is probably another civ on my continent (and redouble my exploring).
It's not foolproof because the barbs may spawn or land at a point where a foreign city on a different continent happens to be closer than my nearest city. But that possibility does not, for me, make a working hypothesis based on the idea worthless.
I'll let you know if this does me any good.
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rah
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Apolyton Prince of Moderators, Master of Reason
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Lord of the Ferrets
Jan 1970
time: 23:12
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"Anyway, it is not quite simultaneous with the discovery of Invention because, after I strated to suspect the existence of the trigger, I also noticed a case in the next game where I got an advanced tribe the turn after getting Invention and it was a bog standard, one citizen/no improvements tribe. But the more developed ones then started in that game too. So I think the trigger may be Invention plus a move or two (or conceivably a hut tip or two), then they start."
Even after the trigger (whatever it is) is tripped, it is still posible to get a 1 sized city. A couple of years ago, I looked into this thinking it was triggered by year, and could never prove anything. But anyway, after tipping a hut and getting a sized three city with a market and an aquaduct, I reset and tipped the hut again. A size 1 city wo/improvements was created. I reset a few more times and got a wide variety of city sizes/improvements. SO don't let the fact that you got a 1 sized city throw you off. Reset a few times to verify.
RAH
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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East Street Trader,
My experience confirms your assumption about Invention being the trigger, but perhaps it triggers just the possibility of the hut being one with improvements, since I have never seen an advanced tribe with extra stuff before Invention. However, Republic and Democracy are also discovered in about the same time frame, and it could be that one of these might be the trigger, instead. All we know for sure is that Invention stops any more tech coming from huts and that it kicks off a change in eras. Maybe others who have paid closer attention can shed some light here.
Even when the map is well-revealed, I've noticed that brand new barbarians only appear nearby civilizations, the player's or the AI's, because on large maps, where I've explored and revealed every corner, I don't remember ever seeing them spawn in remote uninhabited areas. So your inferences from their unannounced appearances seem quite accurate to me.
I've got to agree 100% about exploration as the top early priority. I can't wait to get that first trireme built and launched, as they are so valuable in this regard. For now on, I will also start building explorers again to accompany my diplomats to exploit your method of exploring with this duo. A very useful tip, since a dead diplomat halfway across the map makes for a very long, sad, row back home.
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Marquis de Sodaq
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... no, a Marquis.
Jul 2000
time: 23:12
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Yes, barbarian proximity tells of the presence of cities - but it can also mean somebody else has tipped a hut nearby. In that case, you also get no warning message.
Barbarian pirates will only land when close enough to an occupied city - 6 rows/columns away? I can't remember, but there is a fixed distance within which they will disembark. If you have no defender, they apparently don't smell you and leave you alone for a while.
On that note, why do barbarians ignore the AI unless they crash into them? I've seen a barbarian march on a straight line within 2 squares of 4 AI cities, only to swerve off course to attack my city! 
Play experience leads me to agree that the remotest huts are more likely to turn up advanced tribes. On a giant Mediterranean map with all civs starting more or less by the sea, it's almost assured that a trip to the steppes of the Ukraine will result in finding some new tribes to bring into the fold. In this case, they are still on the same continent, but very far away. The separate continent hypothesis is on the right track, as well. Time period probably also plays a role - when you are sufficiently impressive to sway them to join you, perhaps?
------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited May 10, 2001).]
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Rich i don't think you get any improvements in MP with huts though..... at least in all my experiences i haven't had it happen yet dating as far back as i can remmeber.
Timbo
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Jarouik
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Helsinki, Finland, EU
Dec 2000
time: 07:12
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I do not remember noticing any pattern in the appearance of advanced tribes that would point to nearby AIs or anything... although it seems to me that rather than being completely random, in some games I get advanced tribes and/or free settlers from huts all the time, whereas in others I will have to wait a long time in the beginning before I get a single one.
Of course, it might just be that once I happen to get a few advanced tribes and free units early on, I can start expanding and exploring even more rapidly, which leads to yet more advanced tribes and free units or settlers. In this way, early advanced tribes can really make all the difference on Deity level. In my most recent game I started on a huge continent alone with the Chinese, which I destroyed very early on, and happened to get an advanced tribe with one of my starting settlers, and lots of advanced tribes and free settlers all around the continent soon after that as well - much more than I remember ever having before! This led to my first game ever in which I became downright invincible very early on on Deity, without conquering anyone but the neighboring Chinese with only two cities. I even managed to build the Pyramids and Hanging Gardens before the computer built any wonders, since my capital city location was so good. Moreover, I kept getting advanced tribes instead of Barbarians even though I had selected raging hordes as Barbarian activity level. Has anyone else noticed a pattern in advanced tribes, namely that there are a disproportionate amount of games where you seem to be getting lots of them, or was I just incredibly lucky?
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Blaupanzer
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Fairfax, VA
Oct 2000
time: 00:12
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EST, yes, it would appear so based on my experience, anecdotal only since I've known to watch for this. Any civ gets Invention, advances disappear.
The "pattern factor" in huts has been noted before. If you get more than one of some result, then you seem to get a lot of that result -- often several in a row. Be it money, barbs, tribes, advances, or nomads -- the results often come two or three at a time, as much as four or five out of group of ten.
In addition to the improvements already mentioned for advanced tribes, I often get temples with later advanced tribes. In fact, my most common result when we get to that point in the game has been a 3-citizen city with temple, marketplace, and library. I cannot verify that Invention starts this process, however.
The advanced tribe pointing toward another civ seems less likely. If you are like most of us you explore close first, farther away later. Hence, the longer into the game you get, the farther away are the huts being tipped. By game mechanics, these explorers are getting closer to other civs. Thus, the advanced tribes are closer to other civs by exploration planning, not as any program-designed secret plan to reveal "the Way."
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Jarouik
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Helsinki, Finland, EU
Dec 2000
time: 07:12
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quote:
If you get one advanced triobe and tip another hut in the same turn you are very likely to get a second. (Indeed that is true of all outcomes except barbs and wandering tribes).
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quote:
The "pattern factor" in huts has been noted before. If you get more than one of some result, then you seem to get a lot of that result -- often several in a row. Be it money, barbs, tribes, advances, or nomads -- the results often come two or three at a time, as much as four or five out of group of ten.
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Indeed, now that you mention it, this probably is true of most of the outcomes. I remember some games where I repeatedly got money or free technologies early on from the huts... the continuing appearance of advanced tribes just leads to the most memorable games, so I must have paid more attention to them than the ones where the huts e.g. just gave me lots of money 
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East Street Trader
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London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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Well, a long sequence of similar results after tipping is not my own experience (save for one special case).
My approach to exploration and tipping can sometimes lead to a turn in which I tip half a dozen huts or more. What seems to me to happen is that I get a sequence of results which run in pairs. A wandering tribe is always a one off (except for once when I loaded the settler onto a boat and the next hut - on the same continent - yielded another wandering tribe). Barbs very often are a one off. The other results come in pairs.
I have speculated that whenever any civ tips, the game is programmed to give results in a set sequence but with a dice roll each time which can result in the sequence being displaced in favour of a barb outcome.
I would readily accept that there must be some further randomising because I can recall a number of occasions when the outcomes did not follow a sequence. I, too, have fond memories of an occasion when it seems to have got stuck on advanced tribes and I got a succession of them. Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, I think that the first hut tipped on a new landmass (whether a large continent or a small island, is weighted to give an advanced tribe result more often.
The exceptional case arises when you delay founding a capital. The time comes, after 10 huts or so, when a long sequence of units starts up. I have known it run unbroken for thirty or more huts.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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EST, as for pairs of hut results, I can verify this from thousands of huts tipped when looking into which techs were most likely to come from huts under different conditions. Although I was mostly interested about techs, often I would go 20 or 30 tips without a tech, and then a group of 4-6 techs, usually coming as pairs in the next 10 to 20 tips, followed by another stretch with no techs or hardly any, before the next clustered bunch of techs. Ditto for gold results, for military units, for barbarians, and for advanced tribes, each having their own stretches, where they dominated the results. For nomads, I believe only one per continent at one time is permitted, making them an exception, but loading a new one straight onto a boat makes a continent immediately eligible again.
The way results are bunched (even after a reload after every tip, which is the way I was testing the same hut over and over), has me thinking that the results may be dependent somehow on the actual TIME when the hut is tipped. A hypothetical explanation: The game first obtains the time of day from the computer's clock when a hut is tipped. Each hour may be split into 6 groups, with perhaps advanced tribes being chosen for domination when it is between 20 and 30 past the hour. Each minute may be split into groups too, giving advanced tribes the biggest chunk of available seconds, say maybe 75% of them. Then the actual second at which the hut was tipped is used to randomly select the hut result. A randomizing system similar to this may be in use and would explain how results often come in bunches, yet remain fairly unpredictable.
Tech results from huts mostly depend on what techs are eligible at the moment, and a sufficient number of tests in a particular situation can predict the probability of one over another. While researching this, I also discovered that terrain on which a hut is found is another minor factor in this equation, influencing probabilities enough to make further testing (all terrains types for all combinations of eligible techs) impractical and too time-consuming. The most likely tech from a hut, if you don't have any yet: as many already know from experience, Horseback Riding or Warrior Code, depending on the terrain. Least likely: Ceremonial Burial.
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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Blaupanzer,
I never progressed much further than the beginning of the tech tree, and given the enormity of the task, would rank the amount of testing necessary to be equivalent in tedium to one of the high point score games. So sorry, no tests after Invention.
You set me straight about nomads, as I was perpetuating an errant theory, and thanks for the correction. Because I was reloading before every tip of a hut, I never got 2 nomads at the same time because I was always starting with none around, so my results neither confirm nor deny multiple nomads per continent.
[This message has been edited by solo (edited May 15, 2001).]
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my belief on nomads is that you get as many as possible from the poles...
in my mp game tonite i got four nomads.... no more than one per turn.... as soon as i build a city..... next turn.... nomad.... only one advanced tribe and not till late but whose complaining.....
my belief is that don't tip a hut on the same turn you build a city with a nomad....wait until next turn.... i did this tonite and got a crazy amount of nomads.... why i was kicking someones rear 
Nomads on huge landmasses.... i have had more than one..... i think on large maps it increases...... seems to me i have had three or four in large maps later in the game.
small maps..... one nomad per continent.....
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East Street Trader
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London, United Kingdom
Jun 2000
time: 05:12
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Plainly, then, multiple nomads are possible on large landmasses. But I hesitate to ditch the one per (small or medium sized) landmass theory because of that. Indeed, if there is a bit of programming governing this I think I would expect the programmer to write something in for that special case.
A link to area rather than landmass is an attractive idea. But I can neither support that nor contradict it from my own gaming experience.
Your experience, EthnicCleanser, is consistent with the one nomad per area/small or medium landmass proposition and I'm rather with you that using a nomad to found a city with seems to increase the chance of getting one shortly afterwards when tipping a hut on forest/hills or mountains (you get advanced tribes from huts on flatland, never nomads).
I used always to keep the second NONE settler in deity to build roads etc. Then I decided to try what was then the accepted wisdom here and found two cities early. I had never, before then, got a nomad on my home continent whereas after I changed style they became common.
What I often do now is to see how many huts exist nearish to the site where I have, or intend to, found my capital. If it turns out that there are one or two huts on forest/hill/mountain squares I found with both initial settlers, expecting one of those huts to yield a nomad. So far I have been getting one by these methods at what seems quite a marked increased frequency over the normal incidence.
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EOL
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Oxford
Dec 2000
time: 05:12
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In a game last month I received nomads from successive huts (adjacent in the pattern) on a continent only big enough for 5 (perhaps 6 at a stretch) perfectionist cities on a large map game. This is the only time I can remember getting 2 nomads on such a small land mass. Perhaps its just rare with the chance of nomads decreasing rapidly with each nomad operating on the continent already.
EOL
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EST......
My thoughts on large landmasses and nomads are as follows.......depending on the amount of civs on the current landmass and depending on the amount of NON settlers on the same landmass determines how many can be on the continent at one time.
Plain english as i don't know if i even understand that gibberish..... zulus, romans and french one one continent means up to three NON settlers can be on the board at any one time.....
However it could also be based on the amount of tiles on the landmass.....
for example i never have received two nomads on a 50 tile island.... but have repeatedly received two or three advanced tribes....
Another factor in this could be NON nomads = amount of civs in the game..... ie 7 civs = up to seven nomads.... remember this is nomads for all tribes..... does the ai receive nomads or just advanced tribes.
The one thing i noticed in my last couple of SP games and also my MP game last night was that nomads came after i built a new city. i didn't open a hut until one turn after i built the city with my nomad...... i found even if i built a city that turn with the nomad all huts produced gold, units, advances, or barbs. When i waited a full turn after i built the city nomads were far more frequent.
Its my belief that nomads must be laid down as a city for a full turn in order to receive another one..... either that or its just another quirky thing i am noticing the last three games 
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solo
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Lowell, MA USA
Jan 2001
time: 05:12
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While a nomad from a hut with another on the same continent is new to me, too, results reported above confirms that this happens. I guess I've always whisked them away to use them at home or used them to start a new city before getting a chance to find out.
Has anyone ever got a nomad from a hut without founding a city with the second non-settler provided at the start of the game? I have never received a nomad from a hut, until using and/or losing my second starting settler.
My opinion is that the first two settlers are best used in founding cities as early as possible. It's great to have one or more NON-settlers, but they are not essential.
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10-05-2001 20:35
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