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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:15
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I am writing this post partially because Poland didn't get to the main set. I am writing this post because Poland's outlooks to get to the second set look unpromising. But I'm writing this post mostly because in the last ranking of civs to be included in the expansion was behind the Eskimos. And the Mayas. And the Sioux.
Now, wait, I take that back. I am writing this post mostly to dispel a myth quite popular among posters here. And this myth is:
Poland is some puny country in Eastern Europe, which was never powerful and who's only inventions are kielbasa and pierogies
I'll start by a simple comparison: the date universally acknowledged as the one that marks the creation of the Polish country is 966 (the christening of Poland), while the United States' Declaration of Independence dates 1776. Now here's a question: if a country with so favorable "starting conditions" as the US needed about 150 years to achieve domination, wouldn't it be likely for a country with a not as very, but also a quite nice topographical etc. situation, to achieve domination in its region?
The answer of course is yes. And indeed, Poland had been a superpower for quite a period of time. Well, in the start of course, the country was small. However, subsequently with gaining more victories in conflicts with neighbors, it grew. The most important historical occurrence, as far as territorial issues are concerned, was the unification of Lithuania with Poland. After that, the country started to enter what was its golden age. Firstly, the Republic beat the crap out of the Teutonic Knights (which were ironically invited into the region by a Polish duke, to beat the crap out of the Prussians). Not so late after country spread into an empire that stretched from the Baltic Sea to the Black Sea. It was quite a formidable opponent for anyone in that time. And, although its power started to fade from the 17th century, Poland still managed to accomplish some challenging feats, such as taking over Moscow and even controlling Russia for a short period of time. However, such achievements did not prevent the eventual downfall of Poland, which happened at 1795, when the three states, Russia, Prussia, and Austria signed the 3rd partitioning agreement, effectively evaporating Poland from the map of Europe for 123 years. But it failed to evaporate the Polish nation.
Enough with the historical introduction, here are my main arguments why Poles should be recognized as a nation that contributed largely to the world’s legacy. And so:
-the battle of Vienna in 1683. If not for the Polish army, the Turks would have the attack routes to Europe open before them. But they were defeated.
-the battle of Warsaw in 1920. This time the Polish forces stopped the Bolshevik approach, another menace, which, if uncontained, would engulf all Western Europe.
-as stated before, in the late XVth-XVIth-early XVIIth century period, Poland was practically a superpower – the largest country in Europe, with one of the best armies, and a prospering economy.
Finally, Polish scientists had a huge contribution in most fields of human progress. Probably the most famous one is a guy that revolutionized a lot of areas of life with his brave but simple theory. Can you guess who?
LoD
Appendix 0: These are not all arguments that I have. I’ll roll in all my cannons in due time  .
Appendix 1: I have one more myth to dispel – pierogies are not actually Polish. They are Eastern Slavic.
Appendix 2: But vodka was undoubtedly made first in Poland  !
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jsw363
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I'm not Polish, I'm Dutch for the record. I'd like to see Poland in the game. I think that it was more historically important than the Inuits or the Sioux. (I have to admit though that I'd also really like to see the Maya).
quote:
Originally posted by LoD
As stated before, in the late XVth-XVIth-early XVIIth century period, Poland was practically a superpower – the largest country in Europe, with one of the best armies, and a prospering economy. |
Was Poland really the largest country in Europe? I could understand that it's larger than France and Spain, but the Hapsburg Empire? The HRE? Russia? Also frankly, I don't remember it being a major player in European History. Also didn't they have a feudal system of agriculture far longer than Western Europe? I don't know if it's possible to have a "prospering economy" if many people are serfs. Admittedly I'm not an expert on Polish history, so could someone clarify all this for me?
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YefeiPi
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Canada
Jul 2001
time: 00:15
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The only way I feel Poland can get in the game is by taking out some western european countries.
Too many of them in the game already!
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Christantine The Great
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Massachusetts
Jun 2000
time: 00:15
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quote:
Poland was big in 17-18-th century. |
It was also quite powerless. That map is right before it was partitioned.
I think there are enough civs in Europe. And if another was to be added I doubt it would be Poland. Most likely Spain or the Vikings.
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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:15
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UberKruX: Nice ideas! Personally, I'd be deciding between Gniezno (the original capital) and Warsaw as "HQs". And I'd choose either kings Mieszko I (or Mieczyslaw I as you say), Kazimierz Wielki (Casimir the Great), Wladyslaw (Vladislav) Jagiello and Jozef Pilsudski (the latter not being a king, but IMHO Poland's greatest XXth century leader).
Most Poles would say that a special unit would be the husaria. The husaria was a kind of lightly-moderately armored cavalry, which had a special feature - attached to the back plate of each rider were two vertical curved poles (not Poles ) with horizontally placed feathers (I'll find a picture of that to better illustrate the thing). This contraption generated a very loud and ominous sound when the rider was in motion. Increased in magnitude when hundreds of riders were charging simultaneously, this provided for a shattering psychological effect.
However, I find your idea about the artillery very original, and frankly, I think you have a better special unit concept.
Col Bigspear: Thanks. Nice to see some support here .
My personal advice BTW - I'd not pick Stanislaus Leszczynski (if we're talking about the same guy), since he was a very week king.
jsw363: Nice to hear you're a supporter .
quote:
Was Poland really the largest country in Europe? I could understand that it's larger than France and Spain, but the Hapsburg Empire? The HRE? Russia? Also frankly, I don't remember it being a major player in European History. Also didn't they have a feudal system of agriculture far longer than Western Europe? I don't know if it's possible to have a "prospering economy" if many people are serfs. Admittedly I'm not an expert on Polish history, so could someone clarify all this for me? |
I'm 100% sure that it was in its time. Russia was not always that big - think about the fact that it was countered from the east by Tatars. As for the other countries, if they would be bigger than Poland then, then Europe would have to be as twice as big to fit them all in .
Yes, Poland had a system that become anachronicl after some time. However this allowed it to become a leading producer of food crops ("The Granary of Europe", I think what it was called). Of course eventually the progressively more popular conservatism among the nobility halted the necessary reforms, until it was too late.
Also think about the fact that in almost all European countries in the XVIth - XVIIth century most people were serfs.
DarkCloud: Russia has been included to the original set of civilizations, so you don't have to worry about that .
krzysiek: Heh, milo w koncu spotkac rodaka na tych forach .
Arent: Hey there  ! What's up friend? And no, I'm argueing more about a Panpolonian Confederacy .
Christantine The Great: Unfortunely, krzysiek picked the wrong time frame. You're right, Poland in the XVIIIth century was very weak, on the verge of disintegration. It has also lost a lot of wars, so the map he is presenting is not the best example. As I've said, I'll try to find a better one.
LoD
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Christantine The Great
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Massachusetts
Jun 2000
time: 00:15
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What exactly was the reason for the hussar's wings? If he ever lost his horse I doubt he'd fly off the battlefield unharmed.
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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:15
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DarkCloud: Ah, so you mean what we call "Kiev Rusia". Well, it was important but I don't think to that extent that it outqualifies Poland .
And you're right, free elections were carried out after the death of the last representant of the Jagiellonian dynasty. They were effective until the 3rd May Constitution, which brought back the succesion rights (it was because the privilage of free election was abused by the nobelty, which forced promises of new rights for them by the candidates for monarchy). By the way, the said constitution was signed in year 1791, which makes it second in the World.
krzysiek: Of course you're right, Mieszko I was never a king. I can only justify myself by saying that I wrote that automatically since he was first reffered to as king in this thread. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.
LoD
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Henrik
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The European Union, Sweden, Lund
Dec 2000
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by DarkCloud
Also interesting is the Polish system of Kingship, their kings were elected!  |
Well this was quite common in europe at that time (only nobility could vote though...) eventualy it was replaced by dynasties, which when left whitout hiers was replaced by a new king (elected), I dont know if they got to dynasties in poland, but I think so.
Also the polish parlament (they where also common in europe at the time, although called other things, like Riechstag, Riksdag, Sejm, etc) was unique in one way: There had to be 100% of the votes behind a sugestion if it was to pass, and as every little country lord had a vote, not much got changed (which proved fatal in the war of 1655 whit the Swedes, although the poles managed to throw out the Swedish invador, whit the help of 5 allies and a massive peasent rebelion)...
This was all after thier "Golden Age" though.
Before that Poland (and the Polish-Lituanian Comonwealth in particular) where one of the most powerfull nations in europe.
Thier knights (Hussars, or Hussaria) where definatly the best ones in europe (but they where still using them in the mid 1600's, when they where horribly outdated).
Hmm, forgot the point whit all of this, just recalling the stuff I know about Poland
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Ubik
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Greece
Jun 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Poland is some puny country in Eastern Europe, which was never powerful and who's only inventions are kielbasa and pierogies |
...and what is wrong with kielbasa and pierogies? 
ROFL
...on a more serious note, if it is 16 the numbers of the civs we should have to choose, Poland would definitely not be one of them. I'd add another pre-colombian civilization in America (Mayan seem good, but what about Tolteks?) and maybe the Spaniards - they were heavily influental nonetheless. And maybe Mongols too - they practically had the worlds biggest empire for ages.
But some should go... well, either the Franks or the Germans... and also the Iroquis (even though I admire their political system).
Definitely, not Polish. Celts, Vikings (no, they didn't stop existing after 10nth century AD - where the heck do you think the Skandinavian people derive from???) and many Asian civilizations are probably in front of Poland as well.
My main objection is still the Zulu thing! Damned, Ethiopian, Numides or even Libyans would be a far better representation of black africa. Why the big zero Zulus???
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LoD
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Warsaw, Poland
Jan 2000
time: 06:15
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Henrik:
quote:
There had to be 100% of the votes behind a sugestion if it was to pass, and as every little country lord had a vote, not much got changed (which proved fatal in the war of 1655 whit the Swedes, although the poles managed to throw out the Swedish invador, whit the help of 5 allies and a massive peasent rebelion)... |
Ah, yes, the infamous liberum veto. The eventual killer of Poland.
We had 5 allies? Wow, didn't know about that .
Ubik:
quote:
and what is wrong with kielbasa and pierogies? |
Ah, a connaisseur of Polish cuisine I see ...
quote:
I'd add another pre-colombian civilization in America (Mayan seem good, but what about Tolteks?) |
IMHO there are enough Native American cis already. With all due respect, the name of the game is Civilization, not Extinct Tribe .
quote:
and maybe the Spaniards - they were heavily influental nonetheless. And maybe Mongols too - they practically had the worlds biggest empire for ages. |
Those I agree with. But they are only two slots out of 16.
quote:
Vikings (no, they didn't stop existing after 10nth century AD - where the heck do you think the Skandinavian people derive from???) |
Exactly, derive from, not are.
quote:
and many Asian civilizations |
For example?
LoD
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18-09-2001 20:35
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so I can't really ask them about Poland.
Germany is smaller than France and Spain so if it was bigger than them to was bigger than HRE. 
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