24-09-2001 10:54									#61
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quote: Originally posted by PGM IMO the best way to assure no bad translations is to not translate at all.

The last version of Simcity has been translated very good into Dutch. I've seen kids of friends of mine (young teenagers) playing the game with ease just because of the translation. If they had to play it in the angloversion they would have started with tackling the languagebarrier.
I know my understanding of and skill in using anglo is pretty good, but that doesn't go for a lot of fellow dutch(wo)men. games should be as accessible to all as possible. And if a translation helps to do so, why not ?!!.

	24-09-2001 11:36									#62
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quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins And if a translation helps to do so, why not ?!!.

Reason: a translated game looks cheap EVEN if the translation is done good. I have played games since I was 6 and have all my life hated games which were translated into Danish. I don't know how it is in other countries, but from translation into dansih all jokes dies (even as I was 6 I could understand if they were telling a joke or were angry), in danish it seems like everything is just a very sad joke, you can't tell if someone in the game is angry or feel time to celebrate...I don't know about you, but I think that kills the game

	24-09-2001 12:03									#63
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I think it's been said. For kids and such, a translated version may be in order, but an English version should ALWAYS be a possibility. This is an international world. Globalization, anyone? I am not living in my native country. And even if I can understand Dutch well enough to play a game, the enjoyment dies.

Anyways, most kids speak English at six, nowadays.

	24-09-2001 12:47									#64
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Anyways, most kids speak English at six, nowadays.

The only 6-year kids I've met who spoke anglo, were english and irish kids.

And when it comes to playing a translated game, the fun doesn't die for me. It's not that I don't know what I'm missiing for not playing the anglo-version, but my own language(s) (dutch/frisian) is my own language, and a good subtle translation (such as in Simcity for instance) gives a gentler feel to the game. Anglo can be so crude and common, it's ugglier than dutch.
Besides, reading Asterix & Obelix in dutch didn't make it less fun, didn't it. I've read them in english, german, french and frisian versions too. And no matter what language, the word-play (gags) when you "intercompared" / translated it, was never the same but always funny.

Rare jongens, die amerikanen !

	24-09-2001 13:10									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins Besides, reading Asterix & Obelix in dutch didn't make it less fun, didn't it. I've read them in english, german, french and frisian versions too, and the word-play (gags) when you "intercompared" / translated it, was never the same but stayed funny, no matter what language.

Well I don't understand the Ducth language so I can't say if that is ok or not for games/movies, but I have read/seen Asterix & Obelix in Danish, well at first I didn't notice the difference (since the only language avaliable is danish for those comics), but after I first time saw one of the cartoons in english the danish ones became of no value to me because there where 10 times as many jokes in the english one than in the danish one.

And btw, kids at the age of 6 does partly understand the language.

	24-09-2001 15:50									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins A few posts higher up here I've talked about a dutch CIV-site which invited people to come up with dutch translations for a dutch language patch.

Could you give us the URL of that site?

_________
Nachtmerrie: het Civ-handboek alleen verkrijgbaar in een slechte Nederlandse vertaling.

	24-09-2001 15:58									#67
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This is an answer about a dutch CIV-site from one dutchman to another dutchman.

Of die site nog in de lucht is weet ik niet. Ik heb um ergens vroeg dit jaar voor het laatst bezocht. Hoe de site precies heet weet ik niet meer, het staat me bij dat het iets in de trant van "the dutch civilizationsite" was. Ik heb um gewoon gevonden via de startpagina-zoekfunktie door het intikken van "civilization". Misschien dat het op die manier weer lukt um te vinden !! Jammergenoeg heb ik um niet bij mijn favorieten (i.t.t. de Apolytonsite) gezet.

En hou je stoksken recht, Oldie !!

Last edited by Vrank Prins on 24-09-2001 at 16:07

	24-09-2001 17:10									#68
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If the site still in the air is know I not. I have it somewhere early this year last visited. What the site Is called, know I not more, it says by me that it something like "the dutch civilizationsite" was. I have it simply found via the startpage-searchfunction through the typing of "civilization". Maybe that it this way still is possible to find !! Crappily enough have I it not with my favorites (in the Apolytonsite) folder.

And how are you doing, old fart!?!

	24-09-2001 18:12									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 If the site still in the air is know I not. I have it somewhere early this year last visited. What the site Is called, know I not more, it says by me that it something like "the dutch civilizationsite" was. I have it simply found via the startpage-searchfunction through the typing of "civilization". Maybe that it this way still is possible to find !! Crappily enough have I it not with my favorites (in the Apolytonsite) folder. And how are you doing, old fart!?!

If you're trying to show how ridiculous a bad translation can be, well then you've made your point.
But what about a good translation. Inspite of what's been feared by most of you here, that's possible too.

"If the site is still in the air I don't know. I've visited it for the last time somewhere in wintertime, early this year. I can't tell you the name of the site, believe it was called "the etc.". I just found it by using the searchfunction of "(name of dutch webpage)" by feeding it "Civilization". Maybe you can find it the same way. Unfortunately I didn't add it to my folder favourites (not like the Apolytonsite)."

And the last sentense is an allusion to an old 17th century poem. Which is certainly not crude, like in the translation being given above.

	24-09-2001 18:39									#70
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The last part, something like "how's it hanging" but then pointing upwards... if I understand it correctly

	28-09-2001 02:24									#71
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I think the guys who say "i dont like my language" must be shame. U have to love your language. I speak spanish as mother tonge, and ive to say that, especially for music proposes, english and spanish (and perhaps, japanese?) are the best. But if u live, for example, in Germany, u MUST love your language coz is part of ur culture. Dont like german, well, find the good side of it. For example, the band Rammstein is a hell of a band, and sings in german, the german isnot for "love songs" but for mighty and glorious melodies!.
Its true that in most of the cases, translations sucks, thats coz i buy books or games in english, but, please, dont say "its true, swedish sucks (for a guy who actually lives there)".
So, in CIV-Terms:
Love you culture, or look how easly other civ will assimilate ur city.

	28-09-2001 12:33									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Asesino_Virtual I think the guys who say "i dont like my language" must be shame. U have to love your language. I speak spanish as mother tonge, and ive to say that, especially for music proposes, english and spanish (and perhaps, japanese?) are the best. But if u live, for example, in Germany, u MUST love your language coz is part of ur culture. Dont like german, well, find the good side of it. For example, the band Rammstein is a hell of a band, and sings in german, the german isnot for "love songs" but for mighty and glorious melodies!. Its true that in most of the cases, translations sucks, thats coz i buy books or games in english, but, please, dont say "its true, swedish sucks (for a guy who actually lives there)". So, in CIV-Terms: Love you culture, or look how easly other civ will assimilate ur city.

You have NO idea how bad the danish language is for movies/games/music. What would you say if every single translation sounds like a childs talk...well that's the danish language in games, etc...It's just VERY annoying

There's nothing to be proud of by the danish language (I mean the language they speak in the cities The language we speak here in the south of the country is more cool, not some baby speak)

	28-09-2001 14:18									#73
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English is the main language of the whole world, therefore I think that people should at least have it as their second language. E.g. in Germany and Italy all their movies in the television are synchronized into their own language (OK it is funny when you hear James Bond say "Mein name ist Bond", instead of "My name is Bond") and therefore this is one of the reasons why the Germans and Italians doesn´t learn the main language of the world: English. When I have been travelling in these countries (and in Greece too), it is difficult to understand those people properly. In France they tend not to understand you because they belive, that French should be the main language of the world. If you want to be educated - speak English! Looks at these forums about Civ 3 they are all in English because the main language is ENGLISH. Got the facts?


"Beware of the English Empire; the English people are going to rule the world again in "CIVILIZATION III""

	28-09-2001 14:21									#74
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English is the main language of the whole world, therefore I think that people should at least have it as their second language. E.g. in Germany and Italy all their movies in the television are synchronized into their own language (OK it is funny when you hear James Bond say "Mein name ist Bond", instead of "My name is Bond") and therefore the Germans and Italians doesn´t learn the main language of the world: English. When I have been travelling in these countries (and in Greece too), it is difficult to understand those people properly. In France they tend not to understand you because they belive, that French should be the main language of the world. If you want to be educated - speak English! Looks at these forums about Civ 3 they are all in English because the main language is ENGLISH. Got the facts?


"Beware of the English Empire; the English people are going to rule the world again in "CIVILIZATION III""

	28-09-2001 15:07									#75
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Sure, it's fine being proud of your own language, if you must. But my point was that I live in the Netherlands, a country of tounge uglier than Danish, and I am NOT Dutch. It has happened that I have bought games, found that they are in Dutch, understood little of it, misundertood the rest, and the gaming experience ends up being on a bar with doing the dishes.

I come from Iceland, and I can tell you, if Lincoln or LizI start talking Icelandic to me, I'll only go megalomaniac and never live in peace... or something like that. If they speak Dutch, it will be a 6000 year long vendetta against the world. So much for the improved diplomacy...

	28-09-2001 15:39									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Sure, it's fine being proud of your own language, if you must. But my point was that I live in the Netherlands, a country of tounge uglier than Danish, and I am NOT Dutch. It has happened that I have bought games, found that they are in Dutch, understood little of it, misundertood the rest, and the gaming experience ends up being on a bar with doing the dishes. I come from Iceland, and I can tell you, if Lincoln or LizI start talking Icelandic to me, I'll only go megalomaniac and never live in peace... or something like that. If they speak Dutch, it will be a 6000 year long vendetta against the world. So much for the improved diplomacy...

Exactly my problem - I am currently in Germany and my German is not good enough to enjoy playing any game in the language. I simply cannot buy a game that I will not understand and enjoy anyway.

	30-09-2001 03:53									#77
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Ok, this thread is starting to get a little creepy...

It is my opinion that English is a universal language because of political, economical and cultural reasons. USA is nowadays the most important and wealthy economy in the world (though some European countries are also important), and anything that affects USA will affect the rest of the world. Sad, but true.
On the cultural side of things, the american culture is widespread around the world, mainly because of movies and music. It is so natural to watch a movie English-spoken that when you watch a movie in your original language, you have that wierd sensation that there is something wrong. Again, sad but true.
On the other hand, I LOVE my language. I think Portuguese is a very cool, melodic and smooth language, more suited to music and poetry than other languages. But that is just my opinion. So I am not ashamed of my language. But, since English is the international language nowadays (sad etc.), I would like to have Civ3 in English, in order to fully take advantage of the many mods and scenarios that will surely come up on the net very soon.

	01-10-2001 03:10									#78
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quote: Originally posted by Mads Raven English is the main language of the whole world, therefore I think that people should at least have it as their second language. E.g. in Germany and Italy all their movies in the television are synchronized into their own language and therefore the Germans and Italians doesn´t learn the main language of the world: English. When I have been travelling in these countries (and in Greece too), it is difficult to understand those people properly. In France they tend not to understand you because they belive, that French should be the main language of the world. If you want to be educated - speak English! Looks at these forums about Civ 3 they are all in English because the main language is ENGLISH. Got the facts?

You reduce a complex argument to some sentence I can't believe you wrote
French has been for a while the most "relevant" language of the World, as Greek and Latin before.
In Italy we spent few generations teaching French, Latin, sometime Greek. Not to mention we have still some culture point in our tradition, so we don't love the idea to abdicate our language to english (what english, then: USA's, GB's, Australian's?). We use a lot of english words (Computer area is the most relevant example, here), normally we don't translate in italian english songs, most of younger italian speak and understand english well enough to interact with others people (e.g. for tourism, or surfing Internet).

English doesn't deserve to be the only language of the world: you can see very well, i.e. looking at USA large use of Spanish, that the future will probably change the "standard" english into a Lingua Franca with many terms from Spanish, German, Italian, probably Japanese and Chinese, too.

The concept of having the original version available as an option, at the side of the translated version (on the same CD Rom, same manual) is the best. Look, the original version, not necessary the english one

	01-10-2001 19:03									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Adm.Naismith English doesn't deserve to be the only language of the world:

Maybe not for the "real" world, but it deserves to be the main language in the computer world, and with that I mean it shouldn't only be the main lanugage on web sites, but also in games

	01-10-2001 19:43									#80
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quote: Originally posted by ADG Maybe not for the "real" world, but it deserves to be the main language in the computer world, and with that I mean it shouldn't only be the main lanugage on web sites, but also in games

It's good to have a lingua franca in which different nationalities can communicate. I don't mind having to use anglo here. I'm saying "having to use" because if possible I really prefer to use my own native language being dutch (frisian). It is not a matter of whether anglo deserves to be the lingua franca of the world, because that's moreorless a moral question and thus a rather subjective one. It is a matter of practicality, and I know that as a dutchman (a frisian to be more precise) I have certain advantages in having to use anglo over those who don't have a germanic language as their native language.

Being here on this website using dutch is impossible. But when I play a game (single mode) I'm on my own at home. I shouldn't have to use another language there.

Here's a little historical background on "lingua franca's".
When I was in Iceland (beautiful country and really friendly people !!!!) this summer, I visited an exhibition on 1000 years christianity in Reykjavik. A lot of the historical exhibits being shown there were old deeds, really old parchment stuff from the middle-ages. There was one deed from around 1500 which I could easily read and understand (I'm an archivist and trained in paleography (old scripture)). It was a letter from the danish king, conceived at the danish court in Copenhagen, directed to a parish somewehere in Iceland giving them certain rights in return for certain duties. The deed was written in lower german (rather close to dutch), the lingua franca of the hanseatic world. And being a language so dominant and strong that it had become an official langauge at the danish court.

Things can change. Who knows our far future offspring will be using chinese as a lingua franca. I'm not that stuck to anglo, though chinese would give me lots of more difficulties to express my self, and being able to understand others. For me the easiest and quickest way to communicate, and understand things is in dutch.

	01-10-2001 21:27									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins When I was in Iceland (beautiful country and really friendly people !!!!)

I know

	01-10-2001 23:40									#82
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I still hope, I can get the English version.

	02-10-2001 01:43									#83
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quote: Originally posted by Vrank Prins Things can change. Who knows our far future offspring will be using chinese as a lingua franca. I'm not that stuck to anglo, though chinese would give me lots of more difficulties to express my self, and being able to understand others. For me the easiest and quickest way to communicate, and understand things is in dutch.

I wouldn't mind if the computer language change to something different (unless they try to change it into danish), the thing about the english language is that more people understand the english language than the french language or chinese language (I'm talking about the computerworlds people, I don't know how many chineese in % who have computers at home so I could be wrong here ), but if this changes in the future I wouldn't mind if the computer language changes...ok sure if it becomes chinese I think I'll have to buy a new keyboard (I've seen the chinese keyboard and that looked weird )