24-09-2001 18:27									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I am 33 years old. I pirated games until I was about 18 or so, and these games were for the Commodore 64. Throughout college and some time after, I stopped playing computer games until I was about 26 or so.

The point I'm making is that I can easily afford games now and there is no point for me to pirating games, but I couldn't even if I wanted to because I have a slow internet connection. When I was young, however, I had as much guilt pirating games as I did recording music. There was a computer programmer in my dorm who lived across the hall who told me once about how it was wrong to copy software but I just gave him a "what the hell?" look.

My theory is that those who mostly pirate games are those who are young and don't have much money. And as much as you try to convince them that it's wrong, it will fall on deaf ears. It is easy to rationalize what you are doing when you don't have money.

Don't misunderstand, pirating is a bad thing and hurts both the developers and the customers who then have to pay more for games and also deal with the hassle of copy-protection. But do you think all of this lecturing and preaching is going to do any good?

Pirating, just like recording music, and now the switch from Napster to Kazaa/Morpheus, will always exist and there isn't much you can do about it.

On the other hand, to the person who argued that he wants to test games, by from EB if you have one nearby. They allow you to return games. I'm glad because I would otherwise have been stuck with the really horrendous Black and White which I returned the next day after I bought it.

Also, I object to the argument you shouldn't pirate because it's *against the law*. This is silly. Do you have believe all laws should blindly be followed? How many people actually follow the speed limit? Do you think all the laws in oppressive nations such as China or muslim countries are right, no questions asked? The argument that you shouldn't pirate should be because it hurts developers and other customers, and that you are stealing from them. Not because it's against the law.

Last edited by Pembleton on 24-09-2001 at 18:33

	24-09-2001 18:31									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Nikolai Yes, I know someone wont agree with me there, but abadonware that is very old, is not for sale, and then I think it is OK...!!!

Excellent Nikolai!
One more member to the "Apolyton Coalition for Abandonware".

My opinion is that abandonware should be considered as freeware
wihout customer support. You could distribute it freely, without
paying one singel dime. At this time we can already consider Civ as
abandonware, because nobody makes big profits or any at all with it.

Long live freeware and abandonware!

	24-09-2001 19:14									#33
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 Hmmm. I haven't lived in the States for 5 years. How are the return policies on software? I used to LOVE Electronic Boutique for their solid return policy. And I didn't just keep the games, either, on my HD. If they sucked, I exchanged them...as it should be. Now I'm stuck overseas and can't return stuff. I miss those great days of no questions asked returns...

It different from state to state depending on laws. A number of states there are no laws forcing stores to take back opened software (although some stores in these states still will). Where I live there is a law on the book that provides for returns even though the local Worst Buy manager wouldnt honor returns. The short of the story is the manager backed down when one of the local TV reporters came in with a tv camera asking why they're were breaking a state law.

Moral of the story is when someone at a store tells you you cant return something dont take it as fact till YOU know for sure. Do some checking around first. Also you never know, maybe you can get some local consumer reporter for a newspaper or tv to take up the cause.

	24-09-2001 20:31									#34
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

i'll be honest and say that i have done more than my share of pirating, but i always support the companies that make things i like.

i bought every Civ/SMAC ever made (except for CTP2), and i already pre-ordered civ3.

don't go supporting micro$hit though, pirate XP just like meeeee....

	24-09-2001 22:43									#35
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: I'd actually be very interested to hear Firaxis' views on the subject of piracy, and what the indiustry is doing about it. I have it from reasonably good sources that some pblishers 'leak' games to the warez community. Its a fantastic and free was of getting some heavy testing done.

Sounds like a convenient rationalization to me, I've never known any *developers* that look fondly on the pirate community, and I can't imagine why publishers would think of them as a "resource" to be tapped, either.

My personal view on the situation (hey, you asked) is that anytime I hear someone on a forum proclaim (usually proudly, I might add) that they are going to pirate one of our games, I add them to my ignore list and move on. Nothing I can say will change their minds.

Dan

	24-09-2001 23:10									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin My opinion is that abandonware should be considered as freeware wihout customer support. You could distribute it freely, without paying one singel dime. At this time we can already consider Civ as abandonware, because nobody makes big profits or any at all with it. Long live freeware and abandonware!

Humbug...
Who the heck made up the äbandonware "thing"? There is no such thing as "abandonware" for free though. Just like any other thing that is protected by copyrights (like books and songs and stuff like that) the law states certain period for which the right is at force (sorry if this sounds funny, but I'm no native english speaker, so lawyer's english is not one of my strong points). At least over here in Holland it does.

This means that a song older than (for example, I don't know the exact time) 50 years is aged and so free of rights. But anything younger fallse under the copyright laws and therefor must be paid for. Even though the CD is no longer available, the singer is dead and the record company bankrupt. There's always someone who's got the "right"on the money.

For software there's no difference I guess. The only way software that's no longer produced, but still not is "aged", is free is when the people who own the rigths DECIDE it's free.

Nothing more, nothing less.

If "abandoneware" should become free of rights, this would mean a change in copyright laws.

	24-09-2001 23:25									#37
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

hasn't there been a discussion on this before? didn't ralf start it or something?

	24-09-2001 23:31									#38
	Get a bigger avatar today!

You mean Ralf was the first person ever to post about piracy? Wow, and I thought that I had already seen hundreds to thousands of threads on this and other forums on this issue.

	24-09-2001 23:35									#39
	Put an end to popups!

yin, I hate to say it, but there are several problems with this topic

1) it kinda states the obvious
2) people who want to break the law, will, as Dan alluded to
3) you might as well go to the OT and start a few topics about crimes and actions that should be avoided. "don't rob a bank, even though some claim you should for the following reasons...", etc. since (correct me if I'm wrong) pirating has been discussed before, that'd actually be more important.
4) you actually can encourage pirating. some of the posts here only make it look more desireable. all the people who say 'throw 'em in jail and swallow the key' don't appeal much to the non-converted, but those who say 'windows can be free!" do.

	25-09-2001 00:33									#40
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by tuckson Humbug... Who the heck made up the äbandonware "thing"? There is no such thing as "abandonware" for free though. Just like any other thing that is protected by copyrights (like books and songs and stuff like that) the law states certain period for which the right is at force.

You've pretty much defined what abandonware is. The phrase is used to describe software that the owning company has not sought to profit from for a period of several years. It is considered "abandoned" by the fans of the game. Should the company take enough interest in the sites hosting the software to issue a legal document then the files are removed because they have shown an interest in their property. Some companies are very keen to prevent anyone hosting even the most ancient of their games. Others are just delighted anyone still wants to play them. I love downloading some of the '80's classics and spending a few days wallowing in nostalgia.

	25-09-2001 01:24									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

To all the people who have heard this argument before etc., all I can say is that for reasons I can't mention right now: This topic had to be stated again. Apologies to people who find it boring.

	25-09-2001 02:03									#42
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

The simplest solution to piracy is making software affordable. I don't think that pricing software out of some people's price rage isn't productive at all.

I know that this open's a new debate, but the debate to pirate software or not is, as Wiglaf stated, completely redundant! Of course it isn't right, and of course it is considered stealing. The very great majority of people would agree to that, so it's hardly a debate.

I know that Firaxis doesn't have much control over pricing their own games, since they are outsourcing the publisher, but the key to countering piracy is to make the game affordable enough so that it wouldn't be worth to download it from a warez site.

I know one thing for sure, if games where about half the price they are now, I'd buy a lot more games. Not only are games expensive, but they're a total crap shoot, and as Ozymandous said, not all stores allow returns. So, if you can't buy from EBWorld, then most people that buy a bad game are screwed.

Brian Reynolds once said that 10% of the games out there make 90% of the money... well, I'm here to tell you Brian, that's because 90% of the games out there are good for the garbage.

To put things into perspective, I ask you this: Why does it cost me only about 25 dollars CDN to buy a multi-millioin dollar Hollywood movie on DVD, and 80 dollars CDN to buy a computer game? If you say it's because of the lack of audience for computer games, well then, are you trying to attract more players by selling at extremely high prices?

Debate that!

	25-09-2001 02:03									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

wasn't it during clinton's admin that the laws concerning pirating was placed?

I'm no lawyer but it goes something like this.... if you have less than $1000 worth of copies software you're okay. If you have more, you're in trouble.

Also, is copying data illegal? I was always under the impression that it's illegal when you SELL a copy.

Another thing, I've never once read a solid statement that proves piracy hurts profits of a company. Okay copy protection costs money - but that's totally useless. As many here know, it's quite rare a copy protection scheme stays uncracked. Excluding that, some may argue that hundreds/thousands will download the software instead of buying it therefore creating a loss to the software company. That is so absurd! Granted some of those who will download "would" of bought the game, but in mosts cases no, except if it's exceptional. Just look at the trend of this thread:

Reading through the posts I've seen a few times stuff like "Sure i'll download it, but i'll buy once i can!" and so on.

The real problem with piracy is the loss of sales on the global market - which most game publishers do such a pathetic job at anyway. The piracy that hurts, is the bootleg cds (chinatown?), etc etc - not the juarez downloader. At worst the downloading will hurt ISP's in wasted bandwidth (833 iso downloads, about the full capacity of a t1..).

BTW, I've preordered this game. I never bought civ1, yet I played it extensively way back when on a mac, I played colonization from copied floppies, and I did originally pirate civ2 (so shoot me). However, as the years passed; I bought everything civ (mge, tot, smac, addons, ctp, etc).

Am I for piracy? No. Am I for the free exchange of information? Yes? Do I believe in supporting talent so I can expect better results in the future? Yes!

and that's all

	25-09-2001 02:21									#44
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Provost Harrison Remember Ashmodean, sometimes laws were not always put there for the wellbeing of everyone but to allow traps for the rich to get richer.

Here, Here. I couldn't have said it better myself!!!

I personally have obtained "illegal" software from friends in the past in fact that's how I got CIV1. In this case the reason I bought Civ2 was because I got to play Civ1 and find out how good a game it was. So in this one case piracy has it's uses. There are so many games released you need an inexpensive way to be able to sift through the crap (ie. CTP and CTP2) to find a gem. No one could be expected to buy every game. I probably would have never played Civ1 had my friend not made me a copy. In effect, they may have lost money by me not buying Civ1 but they made money on my purchase of Civ2, Civ2 expansion packs and my eventual purchase of Civ3.
I think the companies that are most hurt by game piracy are the ones who consitantly put out crap (ie. Activision) as it should be.
That being said, in the past I may have supported piracy but no longer I now buy all my games even, unfortunately, CTP1 and CTP2. To protect myself from the crap I read many reviews on the product in question and then make my leap of faith.

	25-09-2001 02:27									#45
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

As I have stated myself in the past and will state again, I will buy the game if it is worthy of my money, which I reckon it is with just the fairly superficial knowledge we have already. I also consider it an investment in future games from Firaxis...I have always found them a company worthy of my interest no matter what project they undertake...

	25-09-2001 03:36									#46
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: To put things into perspective, I ask you this: Why does it cost me only about 25 dollars CDN to buy a multi-millioin dollar Hollywood movie on DVD, and 80 dollars CDN to buy a computer game? If you say it's because of the lack of audience for computer games, well then, are you trying to attract more players by selling at extremely high prices?

Recuping costs. Most movies sell much more quantities than Most computer games (Diablo and The Sims are different entirely). To get back that money, the price has to be higher than purchasing a movie.

And Provost, how is copyright law a law to protect the rich? Or is any law you don't like to follow something to protect the rich

	25-09-2001 03:45									#47
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Pembleton makes an awesome point, there is really no point to pirating games once you are out of college. The time and trouble it would take to find a buggy pirated version on the net is probably more costly to you than just going to the local EB and shelling out $40.00. I can certainly sympathize with a poor High school or college student pirating the occasional game or two.

	25-09-2001 03:58									#48
	pirating XPs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: don't go supporting micro$hit though, pirate XP just like meeeee....

Ummm....really reeally bad idea. All the XP programs have a call home feature in them. If you pirate, they will know

	25-09-2001 03:59									#49
	Increase Your PM Length

I have to admit that I pirated some games when I was in university (including civilization 1), but I am now firmly against piracy. Besides, you can always wait a little while for the game to get into the bargain bin.

As for my penance for civ 1, I think my buying of Conflicts in Civ and Fantastic Worlds expansion packs (and every civ game since), only to have those promptly included in MGE made up for my earlier piracy - still really ticked off at Microprose for that though.

	25-09-2001 04:01									#50
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

long live freeciv 3.

	25-09-2001 04:02									#51
	Re: pirating XPs Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by Kaak Ummm....really reeally bad idea. All the XP programs have a call home feature in them. If you pirate, they will know

nope nope nope.

hacked, cracked, and defused baby.

devilsown

	25-09-2001 04:05									#52
	Re: pirating XPs Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Kaak Ummm....really reeally bad idea. All the XP programs have a call home feature in them. If you pirate, they will know

Oh will they?

	25-09-2001 05:36									#53
	Increase Your PM Length

I have bought civ 1, civ2, SMAC, and Civ2 MGE. Why am I going to download civ3? I don't have the money to buy a half done game only to have to buy the other half in a few months. I got raped a couple of times now by Sid Leiers half done games which he then conveniently releases the other half later on. Not this time.

	25-09-2001 05:58									#54
	Support Apolyton

we'll compromise. i'll d/l the iso, and when multi comes out ill buy it.

	25-09-2001 05:59									#55
	Put an end to popups!

btw kaak, you're a ****ing idiot. that is all.

	25-09-2001 06:39									#56
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I agree w/ Wiglaf that the topic really doesn't go anywhere.

A good question however is what should game companies do about it. Several options.

A. Follow the Quake III method, where you can't play online w/o a unique key.

B. Require registration of the game after XX days. Either via phone or internet. With a key being created via an algorithm based on the serial number of the game.

C. Added goodies for registered users. Only accesiable thru thier account.

D. A call home feature. (Invasion of Privacy?)

E. Encrypt the data raising the bar to casual copying.

Personally I never understood why game companies don't attempt to raise the bar against piracy more. Personally I like a mix of B and C.

Added: Of course all of these solutions only raise the bar; they don't eliminate the problem completely.

Last edited by Moral Hazard on 25-09-2001 at 06:53

	25-09-2001 06:58									#57
	Got spare money?

I have also suggested in another thread that people here should report to Firaxis and Infogrames warez sites hosting Civ3. As for this discussion "not going anywhere," I think that some good discussion has come out of it here and previously.

As for why I pick this time and method to raise the issue again, I have my reasons.

	25-09-2001 07:50									#58
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Executor How many of the people here actually bought their copy of Windows or Office? Just wondering.

Hush! Not so loud, please. BSA migth hear.

But I don't have to fear, because in public my M$ softwares
are legal.

	25-09-2001 08:06									#59
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Executor How many of the people here actually bought their copy of Windows or Office? Just wondering.

I must admit. You've caught me red handed with this one... and I won't shed a single tear for Microsoft either.

	25-09-2001 08:16									#60
	Got spare money?

My copy came when I purchased a new system. And I see no reason to upgrade to WinXP now that I have 98 running smoothly. And, no, I would never use a pirated copy of XP.

Microsoft just won't get me to 'upgrade' until they give me a compelling reason. Same with computer games. Civ3 hasn't presented me enough compelling reasons to buy it yet. But that does not give me free reign to d/l it.