30-09-2001 05:28									#1
	Constant Nuke fests. Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I just can't seem to stop getting nuked every game. This one I've been playing all day and I got Gaia's Landing blown away by the Peacekeepers. There must be a reason for why this is always happening. Play style? As usual, I lost 4-5 SP's.

It seems to happen when you are well on top in a war, but cannot get your enemy to submit. It also seems to happen more often when you capture a few SP's from the enemy faction. Also, the first nuke tends to start a nuke war and then things get really quite bad.

There must be an algorithm hidden away somewhere for this, because it is just happening too much to be a fluke.

Anyway, If you want to see a nuke world then here's the game. I'm safe now because of 40+ ODP's, but the rest are throwing them at each other like they're going out of fashion. Suffice to say it's now a water world. I actually built the WP in this also.

Thinker level, average world and no unity pods. I also randomized the faction personalities and agendas, but the hive still seems to play like they always do. Any ideas on this?

Attachment: parker of the gaians, 2453.zip
This has been downloaded 31 time(s).

	30-09-2001 07:14									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

interesting. in about 10 of my recent games with the AI, only three PBs were fired and two of them were mine. it's very rare that the computer would nuke a considerable amount like that.

wanna trade CDs?

	30-09-2001 08:59									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

This was more a one-sided maschosit pounding
But it is a good example of my play style. And shows of what can be done with a small empire and the clean mineral strategy quite nicely, year 2325, already into Trascendent Thought, and all bases producing enough minerals to build a CP or sattelite in 1 turn, most a PB in 3 turns. The ability to build nukes like crazy is one major benefit of the clean mineral strategy over straight energy strategy.

The game is saved after striking the death blows to the enemy HQ's, the spartans have been hit by 3-4 PB's, the gaians one and the hive 2-3.

Attachment: nuke happy 2325.zip
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	30-09-2001 19:25									#4
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

You think that is bad? ...

Attachment: trauma of the hive, 2458.zip
This has been downloaded 20 time(s).

	30-09-2001 22:19									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This might seem different but I have NEVER been nuked. I have had several occasions where the AI has attempted to build them and even some cases where they completed one but I usually just took out the bases that was building it with a suicide chopper attack. perhaps it is playstyle . . . I never commit atrocities of any type and keep my reputation toward the honourable end. . . Also my best bases are usually surrounded by a crawler field such that the nuke might not get in range ( I'm assuming without testing that a PB cannot just fly over the encircling crawlers for a dead on hit)

I have only ever used a nuke twice and that was just to see what they did


I see the difference in your games now-- 2 of them are into the 2400s and one is in 2340 or so. I rarely go that far into games against the AI since most of them are over in the 2200s ( I do not tend to play out games where it is a foregone conclusion)

Last edited by Flubber on 30-09-2001 at 22:25

	30-09-2001 23:29									#6
	Inflate your Upload Space

I play similar to Flubber, and have never had an AI player wipe out one of my bases w/ a pb. They usually don't live long enough to make them, or a orbital def. will catch it.

In the game I posted above, about 50 yrs earlier I made the choice to use some pb's to see what the result would be (I always build pb's "just in case."). I used about 5 or 6.

I had no idea the sea levels would rise every turn for 50 turns , and that my bases would starve out b/c unterraformed water didn't have enough nuts. All of the land that used to exist was forrested.

	01-10-2001 00:37									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I try never to commit atrocities, and I've only ever used PBs in three games (although admittedly in one Yang had really p'ed me off by refusing the Supreme Leader vote, so I used 4 quantum PBs to drive him into the ocean floor). I have seen the AI build PBs on four occasions, but have never had any used against me. I destroyed two of the PBs with probe teams, and the other two with ordinary ground troops.

So in all, 0 PBs used against me by the AI!

	01-10-2001 02:53									#8
	Remove this text

Oh you people think your miseries were bad, look at mine

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=27352

Go and take sides between me and the Diplomat whether we should use PBs .

	01-10-2001 04:23									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by Traumahawk You think that is bad? ...

Looks at game....

How uncivilised.
Atleast when I decide it's time for the other factions to move on no-one gets hurt.*
That includes planetmind.**

The use of military force to invade others is just *sniff* uncivilised.


* After exhaustive testing by both University and Morganite scientists it has been concluded that being vaporised by a planetbuster shockwave does not hurt, because the shockwave destroys the human body faster than pain signals can travel down nerves.
In light of the new findings Santiago called Morgan a *******, **** ******* idiotic ****** ********** pig, CEO Morgan happily demonstrated to each and every Spartan that being vaporised by a planetbuster does not hurt.

** Planetmind was conditioned to explosions by setting off large bombs inside Centurai Preserves (which unfortunately destroyed the preserve). After the Gaians demanded to know how Morganite bases could produce 100+ minerals and still enjoy good relations with Planetmind (and without dancing naked in the trees!), CEO Morgan cheerfully demonstrated by detonating singularity planetbusters all over Gaian territory. No subsequent mindworm attacks on Gaians have been reported.


Blake - "No spartans were hurt in the making of this post, but the Hive got nuked for no good reason whatsoever"

	01-10-2001 07:34									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

Blake, that's a post to be remembered...

	01-10-2001 18:08									#11
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Blake,

a most poetic post!

what happens to the nukes if I discover the technology: Sunblock 10000?

	01-10-2001 18:25									#12
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Blake ** Planetmind was conditioned to explosions by setting off large bombs inside Centurai Preserves (which unfortunately destroyed the preserve).

This presumably enacting the finding that the Ecodamage formula takes only Preserves built, and not preserves existing into account - thereby blowing up a preserve allows you to build another one and further reduce your ecodamage?

	01-10-2001 23:27									#13
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I think that the game is a little too tolerant of PBs; what is it, 5 Centauri Preserves = 1 PB permit? The PB itself probably costs a comparable amount of production, so if you had 2 bases - one producing CPs and the other producing PBs, you could take care of a pesky opponent every so often without ED. Of course, you would also have to take care of the ED due to the PBs that were coming back at you (unless you thing Yang is going dancing in the trees whenever he lights up a PB?).

Actually, I've been in SP games where a moderate amount of PBs were used without anything getting out of hand ED-wise. In fact, it has some balancing effects sometimes, like taking a bunch of SPs out of play and knocking off some of the more productive bases. In this scenario, it is better to keep your bases further apart so that the collateral damage to neighboring bases is reduced. If it is a small enough PB, some of your terraforming will still be there, so you can start a new base in the same general area. A PB hit also gives your troops a morale boost in the form of inspirational war cries like "Remember the Hive!" and "Take this for Gaia's Landing!".

From the book "1001 Ways to Game the AI", we have item #428:

quote: "To minimize damage from AI PBs, always have an inconsequential base somewhere (perhaps in a location that would look very nice with a lake in the middle) that you keep well stocked with obsolete military units that you don't really want, but that you can't seem to bring yourself to disband. The AI is compulsively neat about large congregations of obsolete units and real estate the would look better as a lake, so it will inevitably address its PB to such a spot. Happy housecleaning, enjoy your new lakefront lots."

	01-10-2001 23:41									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I'm still convinced the AI targets SP bases more than ones with loads of units. Current tactics revolve around setting up a 16-20 square 'buffer zone' around my main island so if anything gets nuked it'll be one of their own cities.

I forgot to mention that my game was with tech stag on also. Another big problem is the gap between Orbital Spaceflight and the other techs like N-Space Compression which help you defend against PB attacks. This is obviously more noticable with tech stag on. Seems to be a problem for turtle/build style players, because the bloody AI will nuke you if you just sit back and smile.

	02-10-2001 03:09									#15
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by johndmuller I think that the game is a little too tolerant of PBs; what is it, 5 Centauri Preserves = 1 PB permit? The PB itself probably costs a comparable amount of production, so if you had 2 bases - one producing CPs and the other producing PBs, you could take care of a pesky opponent every so often without ED.

Or take care of all your pesky opponents without ED
But ED seriously isn't a problem for me in SMAX, once (before the ED findings) I actually had an empire where all of my bases were polluters, with each base stacked with a team of work killers. I could have dropped a hundred nukes and not noticed a difference, because planet was already doing all it could do destroy me.

Back to scraping and building CP's, I admit it is kinda cheap, but I dont use crawlers for harvesting, or the crawler upgrade bug (or pop booming). It also lets a non-ICS'er such as myself to have a small number of extremely high production bases. It would be more unfair to only let the ICS'ers have massive producing bases.

The crawler upgrade bug is much more serious when it comes ot PB's, because it can be used to mass produce them energy credits quite cheaply. If you have Nanofactory just create a cost 600 crawler and disband it to complete a PB.

quote: Of course, you would also have to take care of the ED due to the PBs that were coming back at you (unless you thing Yang is going dancing in the trees whenever he lights up a PB?).

Yes... this is true (and I can probably do without the image of Yang dancing naked through the trees).
Assuming that you have ODP's then it is a non-issue. Otherwise you just have to weather the storm and then raise terrain like crazy. If your bases have mineral output sutible for mass producing PB's they should have no problem mass producing Super-formers (you can get 2 for the price of a Pressure dome!), then raise your empire out of the sea and laugh as the enemy drowns.


Jeem: I've never been PB'd except in reltaliation, I've even used nervegas against a PB capable Yang with no ill effects.
That you get planetbusted so often must be something to do with your playstyle. The main factors probably being:
Integrity: I'm almost always noble. Never underestimate the effect of Integrity.
Military Forces: If you've seen my save game you'll know I take being peacefull to an extreme, some of my bases dont even have garrisons. Basically there just isn't any super attractive bases to PB.
Game length: Possibly the biggest factor, the longer the game the more time the AI has to get up to mischief like PB'ing.

	02-10-2001 03:34									#16
	Got spare money?

Blake's post raised a question in my mind. Is it even possible to PB a base that has no troops in it whatsoever. I remember playing SP and being unable to nervegas an Alien base out of existence since there were no more defenders. Does this work the same for PB? Specifically is it possible to PB a base or a point of land without having a unit to hit

I am thinking that this would have some interesting consequences IF it is the case. Empty out your crucial Special Project base of defenders and make sure that the base is outside the blast area of the nearest unit.

It should only be done with a base with an aerocomplex (and area coverage by other bases as well) or out of range of enemy drop troops , and you would have to have good radar control of your periphery to prevent a locust or gravship taking your base (and possibly obliterating it that way).


So would this work?

My preferred strategy is to be as noble as possible and make sure I have a couple of forward bases close to each of the other factions such that the PB has to come in range of my choppers before it gets itself in range of any of my GOOD bases. If the AI wants to PB these outlying bases well so be it.

My other preferred strategy is simply distance. Particularly easy to do if you get a pole start. If your empire is deep enough in all directions there is no way a PB should hit your crucial interior bases. . . .can't hit what it can't reach

	02-10-2001 05:36									#17
	Put an end to popups!

Integrity isn't involved, because I was noble (no atrocities, backstabbing at all) before the first PB was thrown by the PK's. Even after that I kept myself 'noble' insofar that no treaties were broken - I just launched multiple nukes back. Before long I was faithfull, then all of a sudden I was wicked. Might have had something to do with the nerve stapling programme I had to undertake after losing the HGP. I know that by the end of the game I had something like 1000+ years of sanctions against me, and some of the AI factions weren't all that far behind.

I never launch the first PB. Usually Yang is the first, and the Hive seems to be the major AI faction in all my SMAC games. Not building any PB's might be a good idea. I've also noticed that the initial target tends to have a PB sitting in reserve. I don't think I've ever been nuked whilst having none myself. I'll take off Iron Man and try to get a 'before' and 'after' save of the start of a nuke war.

	02-10-2001 05:53									#18
	Support Apolyton

quote: Originally posted by Flubber Blake's post raised a question in my mind. Is it even possible to PB a base that has no troops in it whatsoever. I remember playing SP and being unable to nervegas an Alien base out of existence since there were no more defenders. Does this work the same for PB? Specifically is it possible to PB a base or a point of land without having a unit to hit

Leaving your bases empty is one of the best defenses against PB's (perfect defense against AI's). You would want your bases to be inland, because coastal bases are too easy to unload troops into. Then just staff forward Airbases and Bunkers with various defenders. The AI will never be able to PB you. And if you eliminate the use of crawlers & formers in your empire a human player wouldn't have anything to aim at either.

Note: If your particullary determined to detonate a PB at a certain location you can release a native there and PB it, Locusts and sealurks would be the best to use.

	02-10-2001 09:13									#19
	Suffering from ads?

Although if I could get a locust that near an enemy base I might also be able to capture the base and then obliterate it . The big important base is gone and The PB can toast some other objective. Of course given range restrictions perhaps 2 squares away is as close as I could get and then your tactic could have a remarkable effect.

	02-10-2001 09:29									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

The *main* use is to target a point between two or more cities, to get more "bang for your buck" from planetbusters. This isn't an issue to me, because usually I like to use as many planetbusters as possible.

	02-10-2001 18:20									#21
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I believe there is some confusion about missle targets, specifically PB. the past several posts seem to indicate that a PB (missle) must target a unit or base. am I just missing something here???

just last night Yang declared war on me, so I flew over a few fungal missles to take out his high-production mines and slow his reinforcement output. since there was no unit present, I used the "I" keyboard command, or ->Action->Detonate Payload command. bang, fungus ATE three of his mines. I believe this works for all missles, even PBs.

	03-10-2001 05:51									#22
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Never tried that TeknoMerc. It was only when I realised fungal payloads couldn't actually target bases that I discovered the use of detonation. I suppose that's one reason why fletchett defences cover a 3 square radius - but don't singularity PB's have a 4 square area affect?

Must try this out.

	03-10-2001 18:07									#23
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

well..... it's been a while since I detonated a PB, but I believe it devastates a 6x6 square area and lowers all terrain around it too. since I'm at work now, I cannot do a quickie test. can anyone else describe the PB blast effect???

	04-10-2001 01:14									#24
	Support Apolyton

I believe it depends on the size of the reactor; the craterlakes might be 1x1, 2x2, 3x3 & 4x4 with lesser damage surrounding. The AI doesn't always bother to upgrade PB reactors from the smallest levels, so those are the ones you see the most.