01-10-2001 22:16									#1
	America isn't old enough to be in Civ3 Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

This isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I have to say it. It is ridiculous to found Washington in 4000 BC! In a regular game, it takes 250 turns before it's 1490 AD. So it takes nearly half of the game before you're in the years Columbus made his trip to the west! It takes more as 300 turns before America's independence. Americans are just the descendants of some Europeans and Africans. So why are the Americans included as an independent tribe? Just because the US is the most powerful nation in the world? Austria and Turkey also were large empires once, and so were more countries which haven't been included.

	01-10-2001 22:30									#2
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Been there, done that.

	01-10-2001 22:39									#3
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So you are saying that Civ3 should be a historical simulator instead of a civilization-based strategy game? That's a tired, irrelevant argument, imo.

	01-10-2001 22:43									#4
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Since when is America not a civlized nation?

	01-10-2001 22:44									#5
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Ahh. True that it takes that long to get to America's independance. however, thats only 2/3 of the game! Rome didn't last nearly as many turns as we have! In the 20th century alone there is 100 turns! ===ALWAYS=== When you toss in an extra 60 from before that we last for easily 150 turns. How many other nations can say that? not egypt. not rome. certianly not carthage. Babylon? Hah! Persia? NOT EVEN!

Plus, if we ain't in we're going to pull out the damn nukes and do some butt kicking.

	01-10-2001 22:50									#6
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i am the first to bash them but they have at least one wonder of the world - civ series

	01-10-2001 23:00									#7
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*sniff* *sniff* Do I smell a troll?

	01-10-2001 23:09									#8
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It's not age, it's importance.

Persia didn't last long as historical standards go. But at their height, they were the most important empire around.

Right now, America is king sh*t of f*ck mountain, and has been the single most important leader of world change over the past 60 years. Like it or not.

If you want to get rid of unimportant civs, I'd vote for the Iroquois first. And then the Zulus.

	01-10-2001 23:29									#9
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Hehe Fresno, u shouldŽnt mess with these yankees, they were getting more patriotic during last 2 weeks. Do this poll again, in, lets say, 6 months.

	01-10-2001 23:38									#10
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How many other nations can say that?

Most European countries, based on logic of time periods Iceland Denmark, Holland, Switzerland, Portugal etc should be in.

	01-10-2001 23:53									#11
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America should definitely be in the game. No currently existing nation has been around since 4000BC. Not even China.

	01-10-2001 23:54									#12
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I am an Atheist, so I cannot vote for America in this poll.

	02-10-2001 00:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Roman America should definitely be in the game. No currently existing nation has been around since 4000BC. Not even China.

Another good point. Yeah, why are the Germans ok if Germany didn't even become a country until 1870s? By the logic of this thread, they only civs that should be in the game would be Sumeria and Egypt. Now there would be an exciting game!!!

	02-10-2001 00:17									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Another good point. Yeah, why are the Germans ok if Germany didn't even become a country until 1870s? By the logic of this thread, they only civs that should be in the game would be Sumeria and Egypt. Now there would be an exciting game!!!

Germany has been around alot longer than 1870's. I have ancesotors going back to 2b.c. from Germany. I have records of ancestors from the 1500's. Germany has been around for a while.

	02-10-2001 00:24									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jamison Germany has been around alot longer than 1870's. I have ancesotors going back to 2b.c. from Germany. I have records of ancestors from the 1500's. Germany has been around for a while.

You will note that I said "became a COUNTRY."

There was no nation of Germany until 1870s. There were a ton of independent states with Germanic peoples, and Austria, but no Germany.

My point was you can't judge a civ based on its inception as an actual nation. If we look at America, it had been going since well before independence in 1779. The colonies were developed into an "American" culture as early as 1700. That's 300 years, about just as long as the Persian empire lasted. And many many years longer than Alexander's empire.

So let's quit griping about the Americans being in the game. They belong there as much as the English, French, Germans and Russians do.

Cheers.

	02-10-2001 00:45									#16
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Prior to Germany becoming Germany in the 1800's, wasn't it called "Prussia"? which included current germany, poland, and austria? (maybe a few other countries too?)

I traced my ancestors to 1742 when they came from present day Germany. But, NEVER was there mention of them coming from "Germany", but it does say which "Rhine" (and sometimes it was referred to a "Germanic Rhine") they are from ...which is different than a country of Germany.

	02-10-2001 00:59									#18
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America may not be old, but here are only a few reasons why this game should have the United States as a civilization:

1) Firaxis is an American company;
2) They will probably sell more copies in the US than any other country in the world;
3) Althought the US isn't old, it can count itself as one of the most influencial nations to have ever existed.

	02-10-2001 01:02									#19
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Aztecs and Zulus didn't make their rise until the 14-1500s either...should we take them out?

What you're saying would also negate the entry of a Canadian, Australian, Brazilian, Argentinian, and Mexican civ into the game.

However, I think a different game, based on Civilization, where you started as one of the ancients or classics and spread would be awesome...in that case there would be no American civ...or any of the others mentioned earlier.

	02-10-2001 02:25									#20
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anyone who says "america isnt a civ" really needs a reality check.

civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn)
n.
An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome.
The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state.
Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste.
Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

	02-10-2001 02:54									#21
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I have ancesotors going back to 2b.c. from Germany

That would be after 100-odd generations, therefore so do a lot of people.

it can count itself as one of the most influencial nations to have ever existed.

At present, but in 100 or 1000 years time will it be seen as such. Even after 2000 years the Roman Empire is still remembered as a great empire, after 100 years the British Empire has similar accolades, but the Spanish are largely ignored despite being the world power for longer than the US has currently.

	02-10-2001 04:13									#22
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once Dubya finishes tearing up the Kyoto Protocol you bet the influence of the Americans will be felt for the next few hundred years.

(guffaw)

	02-10-2001 06:07									#24
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Hah. Like YOU were going to sign that thing. nyah nyah nyah

and prussia, while occupying a significant part of the current german nation, certainly wasn't germany. And it was also very recent.

	02-10-2001 06:23									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Nemo Prior to Germany becoming Germany in the 1800's, wasn't it called "Prussia"? which included current germany, poland, and austria? (maybe a few other countries too?)

No.

Prussia never controlled Poland. It is now a PART of Poland, actually. Poland-Lithuania was a far more powerful nation than Prussian until the nineteenth century, when Russia pretty much put the kaibosh on them.

Prussia fought wars with Austria-Hungary, and Frederick The Great was the first Prussian king to give the Austrians a good kick in the teeth. But Prussia never ruled Austria. The Austro-Hungarian family, under the Hapsburgs, ruled until 1918. Prussia was ruled by the Hollenzolerens (spelled wrong, Im sure).

Prussia did control a few vassal German states, but nowhere near what is today Germany, not to mention pre-1914 Germany. It wasn't until 1871 when Otto Von Bismarck worked his magic to unite the German provinces into one political force, under the Hollenzoleren Wilhelm I. This was still minus Austria, as the only time Austria has ever been under German control was after Hitler annexed it, and that didn't last long.

Now that we've dispensed with the history lesson, let's dispense with the thread. There's no more logical reason to exclude the Americans than there is to exclude any other civ in the game except the Egyptians, given your rationale.

Again I say, out with the Iroquois and in with the Turks!

Cheers.

	02-10-2001 07:17									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov You will note that I said "became a COUNTRY." There was no nation of Germany until 1870s. There were a ton of independent states with Germanic peoples, and Austria, but no Germany. My point was you can't judge a civ based on its inception as an actual nation. If we look at America, it had been going since well before independence in 1779. The colonies were developed into an "American" culture as early as 1700. That's 300 years, about just as long as the Persian empire lasted. And many many years longer than Alexander's empire. So let's quit griping about the Americans being in the game. They belong there as much as the English, French, Germans and Russians do. Cheers.

My mistake boris, sorry. Maybe I should learn more about my ancestor's homeland, jamison = not schooled right. I was kindof wondering why it says my great great grandfather was from Darmtadt, Hess Province, Germany. Wondering why there was a Hess Province in there, now I know. By the way where is or was Hess Province, was it in the southwest part of Germany?

	02-10-2001 08:04									#27
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin America may not be old, but here are only a few reasons why this game should have the United States as a civilization: 1) Firaxis is an American company; 2) They will probably sell more copies in the US than any other country in the world; 3) Althought the US isn't old, it can count itself as one of the most influencial nations to have ever existed.

i think 2 is the mean reason America is( and should) be in
the game

	02-10-2001 09:53									#28
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quote:

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

You will note that I said "became a COUNTRY."

There was no nation of Germany until 1870s. There were a ton of independent states with Germanic peoples, and Austria, but no Germany.


I should have expected as much from a Russian. (Godunov the phony Tsar)

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the official title of Heinrich the Fowler in the 900s was "King of Germany." And so he was. His son Otto, however, became Holy Roman Emperor, superceding the German title. Thereafter, the Holy Roman Empire centered in the area known as Germany, but also administrating diverse areas including:

the Netherlands
Flanders
Austria
Bohemia
Prussia (took some doing - Teutonic Knights! )
Hungary (a German kingdom until the Magyars came)

As time passed, the Holy Roman Empire weakened until Napoleon dissolved it. Then the united nation dissolved into principalities and kingdoms, and from 1806-1871 there was no unified Germany. Then in 1871, after Bismarck's finaggling, Wilhelm of Prussia was proclaimed Emperor of Germany, and a new chapter in history opened.

So there was a Germany during all this time, but it simply disappeared for a little while.

And to say the Germans weren't unified very long and should be ditched is discounting lots of other civs --

Aztecs: not unified EVER
enforeced control weakly with wars and blood sacrifices - no direct rule. Can we say Tlaxcala? (Probably not.)

Deutschland ueber alles!

	02-10-2001 10:11									#29
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Originally posted by Boris Godunov

My point was you can't judge a civ based on its inception as an actual nation. If we look at America, it had been going since well before independence in 1779. The colonies were developed into an "American" culture as early as 1700. That's 300 years, about just as long as the Persian empire lasted. And many many years longer than Alexander's empire.

a) There was more than one Persian Empire (Archimenid, Sassanid, Savanid), which combined would last longer than Americas history.
c) What's the point of this thread. America has been the most influential nation since 1945. That's reason enough to leave them in.

	02-10-2001 11:40									#30
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX anyone who says "america isnt a civ" really needs a reality check. civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn) n. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. The act or process of civilizing or reaching a civilized state. Cultural or intellectual refinement; good taste. Modern society with its conveniences: returned to civilization after camping in the mountains.

Uber, this says nothing about the dividing line between 2 civs. America is civilised, but IMHO is (the most important) part of a larger civilisation, namely the Anglo-Saxon-Norman civ.