18-11-2001 23:37									#301
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Is America old enough to be in Civ3? No.

America is only 225 years old.

Should America be included in Civ3? Yes.

In those 225 years, America has done more than most nations have done in 2000 years.

-Military Dominance: duh!
-Cultural Dominance: jeans, macdonalds, rock and roll, rap, t-shirts, suburbs..
-Scientific Dominance: (mostly measured by military's use of hi tech gadgets, and advacned governemtn programs such as SETI and NASA. Also measured by manufactoring use of hi tech gadgets)

Heres a few examples of European nations:

-Germany: 500 BC, unorganized barbarian clans (huns, Goths, Visigoths, OStrogoths, blahgoths)
1000 AD, unorganized, loose clan of fiefs/kingdoms/ that form the Holy Roman Empire, one of the most disorganized, and economically/sceintifically backwards
15th century: The HRE's only scientific achivement: the Gutenberg Printing Press.
18-early 19th century: Consolidation of a few fiefs. Biggest german state is Prussia, a collection of disjointed land which form a country.
Late 19th: Unification of Germany under Bismark. Germany becomes Europe;'s most powerful land power
20th Century: Germany makes a few mistakes and gets flattened once politcally, and once physically. Most cultural buildings such as the 'old towns' in most cities and middle age cathedrals destroyed in air raids.

Germany didn't do a thing until the 18th century. Yet simply because it has existsed for 1000s of years, you want to include it?

Ahh. but wait. You want to include it because of its 18th -20th century achivements. Well, America has been around for about that lenght of time, and you don;t want to include it, even if the USA has dominatd the world alsmost since its beginnings?

	19-11-2001 09:43									#302
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i have not read more than two posts of this thread, and i cetianly haven't been following it. but LoA made his point in a most excellent manner.

and whether or not someone else has said this, i shall say it now. the USA may only have been around for the 225 years, but the fact is that the people who make up the USA have been around as long as every other civ, becasue they are made up by little bits of every other civ. germany, italy, england, they are all unifided nations that were formed by independent states who, more or less, decided that the "strengh in numbers" idea had something to it. i am too tired to even comprehend the complexity of china and india. the US has simply been a place for individuals from all over the world to come and gather in a "strengh in number" way that the germanic states did.

i know the US has its low points but that is no reason to deny the world's current empire it's rightful place in the world's greatest computer game. now if only Friaxis would give us a better color than that damn light blue...

	20-11-2001 13:38									#303
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quote: Originally posted by Roman I am an Atheist, so I cannot vote for America in this poll.

not even china mmm...not sure about that man

	20-11-2001 16:40									#304
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USA!

	20-11-2001 20:03									#305
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Lawrence of Arabia:

quote: 15th century: The HRE's only scientific achivement: the Gutenberg Printing Press.

Well, some say the real inventor wasn't Gutenberg, but the Dutchman Laurens Janszoon Coster:

(taken from Encyclopedia.com)
Coster, Laurens Janszoon, c.1370-c.1440, Dutch sexton of a church in Haarlem, one of the men to whom has been ascribed the invention of printing with movable types. His name was Laurens Janszoon, but he is known by his office, as Koster or Coster [sexton]. The evidence that his printing with movable type preceded Gutenberg's is inconclusive.

As a Dutchman, I just had to mention this.

	20-11-2001 22:38									#306
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Who cares about printing press controversies? We got CIVIII and Sid Meier.

USA!! USA!!

	21-11-2001 02:00									#307
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quote: Where did you get that from. In police investigations its still voluntary, and in the public sector (e.g health insurance) forget it, its not permitted even if it helps your cause. (Even if it weren't its no more draconian than compulsary fingerprint taking)

I just had to reply to this, didn't see anybody else answering this.

A DNA sample has a whole lot of information about me in it that is not present in a fingerprinting. Sure, both can say that I've been somewhere (perhaps a place I should not have been), but with a DNA sample a whole lot more information about me can be extracted.

I don't even want to think about the kinds of uses that such information could be put to if an evil goverment came into power. Just imagine the kind of evils Hitler could have pulled off with a sample of every european's DNA waiting in vaults at varrious police stations...

	21-11-2001 03:08									#308
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Lawrence of Arabia:

Although I don't agree with you, I like the way you argue. A few comments, however:

quote: Germany didn't do a thing until the 18th century. Yet simply because it has existsed for 1000s of years, you want to include it?

Germany isn't a typical example of a European country. France, England and Spain are much older nations. Also, the German civilization before 1700 is much more important as you said. Concerning culture, I just mention the many beautiful Romanic, Gothic and Baroque churches and cathedrals, the medieval miniatures, the paintings of (among many others) Albrecht Dürer, and of course the compositions of Johan Sebastian Bach. As a whole, Germany's importance for the early western world should'nt be underestimated.

	21-11-2001 03:19									#309
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quote: Originally posted by Fresno the paintings of (among many others) Albrecht Dürer

*Begins singing*

Oh, Albrecht, Albrecht Dürer,
Du reitest durch die Lande.
Oh, Albrecht, Albrecht Dürer,
Du Held mit Deiner Bande.
Gefürchtet von den Bösen,
Geliebt von allen Guten, Guten,
Du Dürer Albrecht, Du.

Oh, Albrecht, Albrecht Dürer,
Du reitest durch die Lande...

	21-11-2001 06:05									#310
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Hans Baldung Grien.

Walther von der Vogelweide.

Albrecht Altdorfer.

Immanuel Kant.

Lucas Cranach the Elder.

The Cathedral spire at Ulm, tallest in the world....

The Fuggers, bankers to the world...

No, not much to be proud of....

	21-11-2001 14:59									#311
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realy america was put in because ( like movies ) if an american isnt involved somehow ....it seems americans ( real ones ) are to shallow to buy/ watch whatever the company is selling.

	21-11-2001 18:46									#312
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Perhaps we should have included the Malaysians. Guaranteed sales will fly off the shelf!!!!

USA!

	21-11-2001 22:35									#313
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In civ, everyone likes to play his own nation, but that doesn't mean every nation should be included as a civ.

If the Malaysians had a rich culture and were very powerful for a long time, they should be in. The Malaysian peoples have a rich culture and a long history, but they never were a powerful country. America is powerful and is culturally quite important, but it hasn't got a long history, so it shouldn't be included either.

	21-11-2001 23:08									#314
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*cough* bullsh1t *cough* *cough*

Admit it Eurocom, you're an American hater.

USA!

	22-11-2001 00:04									#315
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker *cough* bullsh1t *cough* *cough* Admit it Eurocom, you're an American hater. USA!

Is this post an example of how civilized Americans can be?

I don't hate America at all, it is one of the nicest European countries.

	22-11-2001 01:26									#316
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Unlike you Eurocoms, we Americans will come right out and say what we mean.

You Eurocoms just dress up your insults with indirectness and a snooty guise of pretense.

Perhaps it's all the guilt from screwing up most of the world.

It's okay though, the USA is here to clean up your messes and welcome all of your more highly skilled emigrants.

USA!

And yes, Netherlands is one of our more productive satellites.

	22-11-2001 18:36									#317
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quote: "Unlike you Eurocoms, we Americans will come right out and say what we mean. You Eurocoms just dress up your insults with indirectness and a snooty guise of pretense. Perhaps it's all the guilt from screwing up most of the world. It's okay though, the USA is here to clean up your messes and welcome all of your more highly skilled emigrants. USA! And yes, Netherlands is one of our more productive satellites."

OK, this is really a very informative point in the discussion.

	22-11-2001 19:03									#318
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quote: Originally posted by Fresno Is this post an example of how civilized Americans can be? I don't hate America at all, it is one of the nicest European countries.

You mean colonies

	22-11-2001 20:16									#319
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that's maybe why america is #1 poluter :-)
and the president just said he will raise the polution by like 100%
well europe will have to recycle a little more

	22-11-2001 22:14									#320
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It's okay Eurocoms.

The next time you all decide to kill a few million of each other and wreck your own continent, (along with most of the world) the good ole USA will be there to patch you back up.

	23-11-2001 00:11									#321
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The next time you all decide to kill a few million of each other and wreck your own continent, (along with most of the world) the good ole USA will be there to patch you back up.

Typical...

Why do you guys always come on as a substitute, can't you last the entire game.

	23-11-2001 02:02									#322
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker It's okay Eurocoms. The next time you all decide to kill a few million of each other and wreck your own continent, (along with most of the world) the good ole USA will be there to patch you back up.

Congratulations, Striker, you've managed to reach an even lower level of discussing. And after your previous post I thought it couldn't get any worse...

	23-11-2001 02:07									#323
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*takes a bow to a cheering audience*

*Points and laughs at humiliated Eurocoms with big lumps in their throats due to inability to swallow the truth.*



USA!

	23-11-2001 16:14									#324
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker *Points and laughs at humiliated Eurocoms with big lumps in their throats due to inability to swallow the truth.*

You think that "the truth" is that Europe is going to start WW3?

Interesting, deluded, but interesting.

	23-11-2001 17:46									#325
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch You think that "the truth" is that Europe is going to start WW3? Interesting, deluded, but interesting.

Yes, studying the working of the minds of a maniac or a lunatic is always intriguing. Disturbing, but intriguing. Thanks to Ted Striker for providing us with this gratuitous case study.

	23-11-2001 20:26									#326
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quote: Originally posted by Ted Striker The next time you all decide to kill a few million of each other and wreck your own continent, (along with most of the world) the good ole USA will be there to patch you back up.

I remember that America has fought a Civil War more than a century ago. Wasn't America a mess itself in those days?

quote: Perhaps it's all the guilt from screwing up most of the world. It's okay though, the USA is here to clean up your messes and welcome all of your more highly skilled emigrants.

And about the colonization of western America, how many Indians did survive that?

So don't think we here in Europe are the only ones to mess up things.

Biggest mistake of us was probably bringing our European scum to the east coast of America...

	23-11-2001 20:43									#327
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quote: Perhaps it's all the guilt from screwing up most of the world. It's okay though, the USA is here to clean up your messes

The European tradition of screwing up countries far away is one of the things which the USA took over with the most success (Latin-America, Africa, Vietnam, Middle East...).

I agree with Oligarf about messing up the American east coast.

	23-11-2001 21:04									#328
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quote: Yes, studying the working of the minds of a maniac or a lunatic is always intriguing. Disturbing, but intriguing.

I agree. Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini. Seriously disturbed individuals.

quote: And about the colonization of western America, how many Indians did survive that?

Europeans KILLED the majority of the Indian populations before the United States of America ever took action against them. Typical. But if it makes you feel better about your own guilt to point at us as the perps, by all means, live in denial. What we did against them was by no means right, however, we were a minor player in a game you guys had already finished.

quote: The European tradition of screwing up countries far away is one of the things which the USA took over with the most success (Latin-America, Africa, Vietnam, Middle East...).

No, you guys had already screwed those places up, many beyond repair. That's why we kicked you out of them and tried to patch them up.

Latin-America (Spanish, Portugeuse, Dutch, British, French)
Africa (Britain, France, Germany)
Vietnam (France)
Middle East (Britain, France, Italy)

So you see, once again we have to clean up all your messes.

And about the East Coast. It was those were were smart enough to leave overcrowded, sewege infested disgusting cities like London or Paris to come to a clean place.

USA!

	23-11-2001 21:30									#329
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quote: Latin-America (Spanish, Portugeuse, Dutch, British, French) Africa (Britain, France, Germany) Vietnam (France) Middle East (Britain, France, Italy) So you see, once again we have to clean up all your messes.

If 'cleaning up' is the same as installing dictators, causing war, killing innocent citizens and exploiting poor farmers, yes, then the USA cleaned up those regions.

	23-11-2001 22:23									#330
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Teddyboy you are a perfect example of why I really wish Einstein would join USSR instead of USA after he left Deutschland. Think about it. WW2 goes on as usual but instead of USA, the commies get the bomb... and blow the **** out of good-ole USA after they finish with taking over Europe...

...Kaboom... no Teddyboy born