03-10-2001 17:36									#1
	Cross&Crescent update... Got spare money?

Yup, I´m working on it . First i planned to make another new scn, but that is too much work now, because Civ3 will be out soon, so I decided to rework C&C.

	03-10-2001 17:42									#2
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Here´s the map...

Attachment: ccmap.gif
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	03-10-2001 17:44									#3
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England...

Attachment: ccmap1.gif
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Last edited by BeBro on 04-10-2001 at 02:01

	03-10-2001 17:45									#4
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France...

Attachment: ccmap2.gif
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Last edited by BeBro on 04-10-2001 at 02:03

	03-10-2001 17:47									#5
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Gemany...

Last edited by BeBro on 04-10-2001 at 02:10

	03-10-2001 17:59									#6
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Ok, sorry for the post overkill, but due to the size limits I had to split it into parts...

To the game: I will still have Germans, Franks and English as playable civs. There are to Arabic civs, Byzantium, and a "Neutral" or "Christian" civ for the christian parts of Spain, the Balkan, Poland, Russia etc, etc.
The Seldjuks in the Middle East will be Barbs.

The map is a smaller version of the Imperium Romanum map (less space in the east - Persia is not needed here )

As in the first version, I´ll not simulate all crusades exactly, because it is not only a "crusade" scn. It is more about the developement from the late dark ages to the high middle ages. However, the crusades play their role...
Timeline is now probably from 955 - 1291 (first version 936 - 1244).

You have more cities than in the first version, but, as in reality, European cities are very small, compared to Arab or Byzantine cities. Also, the terrain in Europe is mainly forest, you have to improve it.

I plan to use three events files generally (not for each playable civs) - this will be the biggest improvement - and one rules file. The techtree will be basically the same as in V.1.0.

All city gfx will be new, a lot of unit gfx too (however, you may know them from my last unit collection). Icons will be mainly the same...

Ideas, comments, suggestions?

	03-10-2001 20:44									#7
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why do the units look so huge in the screen shots?

	03-10-2001 21:13									#8
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Because I thought only map screens are not much for a nice preview, so I used my gfx software to place some units there - don´t worry, in the scn they will not be so giant...

	03-10-2001 23:01									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I also wondered about the unit sizes

Why no Crusade scenario designer has ever thought of adding a playable Iberian civ? In the time frame of your scenario Castile was quite important, you know

	03-10-2001 23:08									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Jay Bee Why no Crusade scenario designer has ever thought of adding a playable Iberian civ? In the time frame of your scenario Castile was quite important, you know

Ah, well, the Spanish weren't even important enough to include in Civ3! Why put them in a scenario?

Those fellows on the map sure do look large... Actually, it's a very good way to spice up the map. I look forward to playing it!

	03-10-2001 23:10									#11
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Roads you asked me are on the mobe, BeBro!

	04-10-2001 00:32									#12
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Thanks for the comments so far, I´ll post updates from time to time

quote: Why no Crusade scenario designer has ever thought of adding a playable Iberian civ? In the time frame of your scenario Castile was quite important, you know

Actually I thought of it But only seven civs is simply not enough

I could make the Arabs only one civ, and include Iberians then, but that would mean a giant, powerful Arab civ - as big as the rest together - I don´t know if it would be good for the balance. Also many units/techs/wonders are the same as in V1.0, so including some special Iberian units or wonders would not be easy.

So in the end I´ll still concentrate on Germany, England, France. I know it isn´t perfect, but the entire scn is not on the same accuracy level as Imperium Romanum. A rise of Rome scn is much easier to make IMO - Rome becomes superpower - the rest goes into decline. Here in the middle ages it is much more difficult - so more things have to be left out...

BTW, shouldn´t Fiera´s "Castile and Aragon" fill this gap?

	04-10-2001 00:45									#13
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Bernd, I think a shot of the map, with units in the correct scale, might be better.

I can't get a feel for the look of the improvments from those shots.

	04-10-2001 02:09									#14
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1) An extremely powerful Arab civ sounds just right to me on this setting

2) Don't worry about Iberian techs/units, you know where to ask, don't you?

3) About Fiera's scen... better not to ask

	04-10-2001 02:18									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Bernd, I think a shot of the map, with units in the correct scale, might be better.

I just uploaded the last three pics in standard zoom Please press reload if your browser shows still the old pics

They show some of the new city styles. The units displayed are especially placed for this preview - means that some of them are not available from the beginning on. Also initial city sizes may be changed abit finally.

JayBee, perhaps, I have to think it over...

	04-10-2001 02:41									#16
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro BTW, shouldn´t Fiera´s "Castile and Aragon" fill this gap?

It should , but regretably I never got to finsih it. However, I made a nice art set including Christian and Musilm units and cities. Just drop me a line if you're interested in these.

PS: Looking forward to your C&C update. After, SubWar, I felt this had to be your next work...

	04-10-2001 02:45									#17
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Hey, the Iberia/North Africa screenshot is now gone!

	04-10-2001 04:55									#18
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Are you sure that there shouldn't be more population in western France and Normandy? I'd be very interested to know where you got your city size #'s, as I ab designing a scen for the same period.

	04-10-2001 05:05									#19
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In relation to what Goingonit said, BreBro I'd recomend that you increase the number of cities in the scenario (I find scenarios with lots of cities to be more fast-paced and interesting).

	04-10-2001 06:23									#20
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quote: Originally posted by BeBro I just uploaded the last three pics in standard zoom Please press reload if your browser shows still the old pics They show some of the new city styles. The units displayed are especially placed for this preview - means that some of them are not available from the beginning on. Also initial city sizes may be changed abit finally. JayBee, perhaps, I have to think it over...

Yes, much better now, thanks.

I have to disagree about more cities, I find it more challenging to start with 5-10 cities, and have to build from there.

Scenarios with 200+ cities take FOREVER to play, and really aern't fun at all, with hundreds of units lurking about.

Plus the AI also takes scades of time to move, it's just not a great experience for me.

	04-10-2001 12:52									#21
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Case, to the cities: I agree with Chris here.

It would also be very unrealistic to have Northern and Western Europe full of cities, because most of the cities at that time were only better market places. In the 10th century only Italian cities were generally a bit bigger, but even Rome was much smaller than to its best ancient times.

Many of todays cities in central europe were founded later. Perhaps I will place another city here or there, but generally you´ll not start with a big empire - compared with the Arab civs or Byzantium, most European powers were weaker in every field.

	04-10-2001 13:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Goingonit I'd be very interested to know where you got your city size #'s, as I ab designing a scen for the same period.

For the citiy sizes, I have no real sizes available, but I have a book that shows which cities were visited more or less often by some HRE emperors. So I made the city sizes after the importance of a certain city.

Since there were no real capitals around 955AD, I made the several residential cities (e.g. Aachen, or Magdeburg) a bit bigger.

But I may change alll city sizes slightly before the release, the sizes you see on the pics are only the first try.

	04-10-2001 15:25									#23
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Roads attached here, Bernd!

PS How do you think to deal with the great Slavian revolt in 983?

Attachment: roads.gif
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	04-10-2001 18:24									#24
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Thanks

And currently I´m not sure what to include in the events, there is much to cover - Viking and Magyar raids, Conflicts with North Italian cities and/or the pope, Normans in Northern France and England, Seldjuk attacks on Byzantium, Crusades, Reconquista, Teutonic Knights in Eastern Europe, Mongol invasions- these are only the biggest things...

I think it would also not make sense to me to simulate it all with events. Perhaps I will have e.g. the first crusade to create some Christian cities in the ME, but creating all followin crusades and the four crusader states exactly seems not possible. I probably will let the Arabs retake Jerusalem in 1187, so then has the player to make his own crudsade, the other crusades would be only text messages.
Reconquista is even more complicated...

I´m pretty far with gfx, map, cities etc, but the events need the most work. I´ll see what I can do with three events files (hope I don´t need more)...

	04-10-2001 18:36									#25
	Remove this text

I supposed that... i dropped it in by purpose... Anyway, i think you should include slavians and Balts in your scen... remeber? the great Northern Crusade against slavians proclamed in 1137 by Bernard de Clairvaux?

	04-10-2001 19:20									#26
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Hehehe...
But yes, some events to "crusades" against so-called heretics in Europe could also be in.

	04-10-2001 19:23									#27
	Put an end to popups!

Got a nice comics' pic about St Malo in Bretagne... I'll scan it asap and post it here.

	04-10-2001 19:44									#28
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Merde... lost the comics' book... Got only a pic about St Malo harbour...

Attachment: stmalo.gif
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	05-10-2001 01:41									#29
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1) An extremely powerful Arab civ sounds just right to me on this setting

I think that Arabs were already declining in military terms by the start of this scenario.

	05-10-2001 02:06									#30
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Oh, Bernd, after looking closely at your map, I think you haven't included Seville. Either that or you've placed it where Cádiz really is.

Seville soon overwhelmed Córdoba in importance, after the Córdoba Caliphate decadency. As a matter of a fact, I think it was Spain's (and one of Europe's) biggest city from circa 1100 on, bigger than any of the Christian cities, including Barcelona.