04-10-2001 20:13									#1
	Civ III's scenario tools Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I'm not sure, but it seems like there hasn't been
any large scale discussions about the scenario
making tools in Civ III, here on Ape's forums.

Could someone briefly tell us what we already
know about the scenario tools?

AFAIK there's going to be at least a map editor.
I have only this piece information about the scenario
making abilities: we're going to be able to make our own
new forms of governments, apparently without replacing
exsisting ones.

But do we really know something else?
Could Dan Magaha give us any hints?
Or are the scenarios going to be "the hidden
treasure of Civ III"?

	04-10-2001 20:23									#2
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We know we can edit units and if we don't want to make units in a 3D editor, we don't have to, i.e. we can also create Civ2-style single-frame units.

I think we can edit most if not all of the text strings in the game.

	04-10-2001 20:32									#3
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut We know we can edit units and if we don't want to make units in a 3D editor, we don't have to, i.e. we can also create Civ2-style single-frame units.

Sounds promising to me. Anything else?

	04-10-2001 20:40									#4
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We can also edit civs extensively, but I'm not sure whether they have to replace existing ones or not.

Wonders/buildings can be edited, unlike Civ2.

That's all I can think of right now.

	04-10-2001 20:47									#5
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We can ADD governments
We can set ANY unit to trig Golden Age
Each unit can be given different abilities for each civ

	04-10-2001 21:04									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos We can ADD governments

Sorry, but I already mentioned that.

	04-10-2001 21:16									#7
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We can also add civs, not just edit existing ones. (from civfanatics I believe)

	04-10-2001 21:29									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Sorry, but I already mentioned that.

Nuts, I must have missed that line

	04-10-2001 22:06									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Mark L We can also add civs, not just edit existing ones. (from civfanatics I believe)

So we are now going to be able to ADD new things,
and not just partially MODIFY the old ones (like in Civ II).

	04-10-2001 22:23									#10
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Whoa!

quote: Gramphos said: Each unit can be given different abilities for each civ

:

So, are you saying that a non-unique unit, like a Marine, could have different attack/defend/movement/cost attributes depending on the civ that makes it? The prereq are the same for every civ, everyone can build them, but one civ's "marine" can have a stronger attack than all other civ's marines? I guess that makes them a 2nd CivUnique unit then. Can this be true?

	04-10-2001 22:27									#11
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quote: Originally posted by wotan321 Can this be true?

Sounds like every scenario makers wet dream.

So let's hope it's true. Keep your fingers crossed!

	04-10-2001 22:53									#12
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS You can set the availability of units on a per-civ level, so if you really wanted to, you could set it so that only the Russians could build settlers, for example. Using this kind of approach, you could certainly change the triggering of golden ages on a per-civ level. One thing to be aware of though is that when you start a game, the "Allow Civ-Specific Abilities" toggle is a global one -- therefore, if a player loads in a scenario and turns this OFF, all civs will be able to build any of the units (as long as they have the tech prereqs). Dan

This is it. You can set he ability of units on a per-civ level...

	04-10-2001 23:00									#13
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

quote: Originally posted by wotan321 Whoa! : So, are you saying that a non-unique unit, like a Marine, could have different attack/defend/movement/cost attributes depending on the civ that makes it? The prereq are the same for every civ, everyone can build them, but one civ's "marine" can have a stronger attack than all other civ's marines? I guess that makes them a 2nd CivUnique unit then. Can this be true?

Essentially you would have to make it unique. So you make a unique unit called American Marines, and another called Babylonian Marines, and so on, and give each different abilities. AFAIK there is no limit to the number of unique units each civ can have.

	04-10-2001 23:06									#14
	unique unique units Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Gramphos, thanks for the clarification. I seem to have misunderstood.

You said:

quote: You can set the availability of units on a per-civ level

meaning a normally available unit could be build only by a specific civ or civs, but say horse-units could not be built by the Aztecs despite the prereq. if I chose to set it up that way. Hmmm...

Dan's letter also states:

quote: the "Allow Civ-Specific Abilities" toggle is a global one -- therefore, if a player loads in a scenario and turns this OFF, all civs will be able to build any of the units (as long as they have the tech prereqs).

Does this mean then... that all civs get all units INCLUDING all the unique units? Or does it mean that the unique units will be unavailable for everyone? Either way, its a nice feature.

	04-10-2001 23:30									#15
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quote: Originally posted by wotan321 Gramphos, thanks for the clarification. I seem to have misunderstood.

The fact that he said that you could change the trigging of Golden Age on civ level mean that you can clone a unit and set it to different abilities for each civ. (I think (as that iswhat the original thread is about))

	05-10-2001 00:05									#16
	Huh? Put an end to popups!

Okay, let me try this again. Every civ can create a "Warrior" unit. But, we can tweak the rules so that the Roman "Warrior" has more movement attributes than all other "Warrior" units, and the German "Warrior" unit has a higher attack attribute. Is that what Dan was saying? You stated:

quote: you can clone a unit and set it to different abilities for each civ.

If that is so...

Then we could have over a dozen UUs for each civ. That...that....that is just too unbelievable to be true. Somebody help me out here....

	05-10-2001 00:10									#17
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut We know we can edit units and if we don't want to make units in a 3D editor, we don't have to, i.e. we can also create Civ2-style single-frame units. I think we can edit most if not all of the text strings in the game.

So I can edit the text to say, "We should build a police station. No particular reason for it, I just like them!" like I did in Civ 2? Or my domestic advisor can ask "Who farted?"

Hey, I'm easily amused so don't criticize me too harshly.

	05-10-2001 00:12									#18
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This gives awesome potential to scenarios. You could make two civs have essentially the same units but have different names and graphics depending on the civ.

Excuse me, I'm going to go wash my pants

	05-10-2001 00:14									#19
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quote: Originally posted by civcop So I can edit the text to say, "We should build a police station. No particular reason for it, I just like them!" like I did in Civ 2? Or my domestic advisor can ask "Who farted?" Hey, I'm easily amused so don't criticize me too harshly.

Sure, a Firaxian (IIRC it was Mike) said that all strings including Civilopedia would be editable.

	05-10-2001 00:19									#20
	Put an end to popups!

The scenario potential is incredible, if this is true.

Civcop asked:

Just think of it.

quote: Or my domestic advisor can ask "Who farted?"

..and what a pertinent question that would be. One of Hitler's biographers noted that the German leader often had a bit of a "flatulence" problem during meetings with out-of-town diplomats. Wouldn't it be a hoot, and historically accurate, if you put Hitler in as the German leader, and during negotiations, he periodically provided distracting sound effects? Its absolutely "Monty Pythonesque" in its potential.

Ya gotta love this game.

	05-10-2001 00:26									#21
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Before you get too excited, I'll point out that without a scripting language, there will likely be no way to improve the AI, change the way combat occurs, make changes to diplomacy, etc. So, for example, if you want a civ in your scenerio to use a certain tactic, it will be impossible.

	05-10-2001 00:29									#22
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quote: Originally posted by wotan321 The scenario potential is incredible, if this is true. Civcop asked: One of Hitler's biographers noted that the German leader often had a bit of a "flatulence" problem during meetings with out-of-town diplomats.

Okay, it's official. This thread needs to be booted into the OT forums

	05-10-2001 00:29									#23
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quote: Before you get too excited, I'll point out that without a scripting language, there will likely be no way to improve the AI, change the way combat occurs, make changes to diplomacy, etc. So, for example, if you want a civ in your scenerio to use a certain tactic, it will be impossible.

Yep, that is kinda sad.

But didn't I read that individual civ leaders were associated with some sort of "personality" file that determined their AI?

Perhaps down the road, we will have some ability to make the desired changes you mention.

It looks like what WILL be in the game has tremendous potential.

	05-10-2001 00:51									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Slax Before you get too excited, I'll point out that without a scripting language, there will likely be no way to improve the AI, change the way combat occurs, make changes to diplomacy, etc. So, for example, if you want a civ in your scenerio to use a certain tactic, it will be impossible.

You can disable every thing that you don't want the civ to build.

	05-10-2001 00:54									#25
	Put an end to popups!

CIV3 SHOULD HAVE A SCRIPTING LANGUAGE DAMMIT!

ok now that ive just done what ive been campaigning against everyone in the forum to stop... i think i'll just go bang my head against the wall..

	05-10-2001 10:12									#26
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It looks like the rumors that were circulating
here last spring were actually quite realistic.
Of course there was also some debates (and a poll?)
on those tools, and quite many wanted to have
point n' click tools and a minority wanted to
have programming language.

But if Firaxis keeps its promises, we should
see quite good scenario tools.

My favorite has to be the ability to give only certain
civs certain units/buildings.

	05-10-2001 17:13									#27
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Fascinating, It looks like you wil be able to design civs with NOTHING but UU's for each one, if you wish. That'll come in handy for some alien scenarios, I think.

We can apparently design governments, add govs, etc.

Dan, in a post on another thread said that we could edit pre game abilities, so only the russians could build settlers, for example. (drool)

wonder if I can set it so only the romans can build roads?

	05-10-2001 19:22									#28
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Who cares about the AI? If multiplayer is good enough, AI shouldn't matter. MGE lacked any comprehensive multiplay scenarios, but hopefully Civ III will see the dawn of this type of scenario, where it's balanced specifically to be played by humans.

If we can add civs, does this mean we could have like city-state type set ups where you have like twenty diff. city-states each being their own civ? That could add a whole new dynamic to scenario-making.

I think we should collaborate on scenario-making. I, for instance, am not so good at making graphics, but I am quite good at designing unit capabilities, making maps, and placing infrastructure. I think perhaps prior to Civ 3 starting, some of us should set up a web site to pool resources.

I've always envisioned a sort of Scenario-Making Guild, and this is the perfect opportunity. One person will come up with an over-arching concept, and then we will divide the tasks up. This will mean less time and labor on each of our parts, greater specialization, which will improve the components of the scenario. If anyone is interested in working on this with me, holla at me: hoekzema@gwu.edu

	05-10-2001 23:19									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Rasbelin Sounds like every scenario makers wet dream.

Sounds like CtP/2 without the scripting language

	06-10-2001 01:04									#30
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quote: Originally posted by Immortal Wombat Sounds like CtP/2 without the scripting language

Okay, let's not forget that side of Civ III. Pros and cons
always excist together.