05-10-2001 05:45									#1
	Micromanagement. Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I hate it.

The part of Civ that I enjoy is the early stage, the later stages get boring after a couple of games; since I spend most of my time moving workers around other mundane tasks. I know that there are mayors but they always end up being w^nkers who can only think locally and not globally. So what besides Mayors has Firaxis done to eliminate Micromanagement?

I like the idea of resources and culture and Im only a little worried about this adding micromanagement I wish they had stolen PW and terrain management(you don't place workers) from CTP2.

edit: added w^nker

	05-10-2001 05:47									#2
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Hopefully the new City Governor AI will help with late game MM.

I personally don't have a gripe with MMing, but I know that it does get tedious.

	05-10-2001 05:52									#3
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I liked the concept for PW but I actually thought it involved more micromanagement than settlers did. You had to plan what you would do for every single tile every single turn, instead of simply having a settler blinking at you saying, "What do I do master?"

But with the incorporation of AI Governors and the ability to give orders to workers (build roads
here, don't irrigate there), I think it will work very well.

As always.

We'll see

	05-10-2001 06:16									#4
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I see your point. With settlers, "what to do next" can sometimes be limited to a few options, as where the settler actually is located plays a part in deciding what to terraform.

PW was a nice idea, but it just took away something from the whole 'building' of infrastructure. A little, maybe? Plus the whole CTP2 system of tile production/bonuses was vague because of the 'increased benefits closer to ground zero' effect. PW was pretty much ruined by that.

	05-10-2001 06:17									#5
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You've got a point concerning PW, I'd let it pile up and I'd use it every 30 turns or so, same thing with moving workers in CTP. Which really hurt me in PBEM.

But that isn't micromanagement by my definition which is actions performed over and over again. Maybe queued movements for settler or whatever formers are called in this game will help. But I would of preferred PW.

Oh and why is every one so optimistic concerning mayors?

	05-10-2001 06:20									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard You've got a point concerning PW, I'd let it pile up and I'd use it every 30 turns or so, same thing with moving workers in CTP. Which really hurt me in PBEM. But that isn't micromanagement by my definition which is actions performed over and over again. Maybe queued movements for settler or whatever formers are called in this game will help. But I would of preferred PW. Oh and why is every one so optimistic concerning mayors?

Because of the preview video some people got when they pre-ordered Civ 3. One programmer talks about how the AI Governors "learn" from your actions.

	05-10-2001 06:25									#7
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Sounds good. I hope it does.

	05-10-2001 06:29									#8
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I like that queued settler move/action idea.

Good call MH

	05-10-2001 07:01									#9
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quote: Maybe queued movements for settler or whatever formers are called in this game will help.

Excellent idea! Say maybe a worker with an empty queue has shortcut [q?] to bassically play out it's next 10 moves or something, saves them, and they'd be like on sentry duty, doin' the work. That would definitely be a nice feature.

	05-10-2001 07:02									#10
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I hated PW. It was more micromanagement than settlers/engineers.

I really feel that there will be much less micromanagement in civ 3, with the improved governors, hopefully better settler automation or queues, and city build queues. The most annoying thing, especially in the modern age, was the number of pop-ups at the beginning of the turn that required you to change build orders. Queues, especially loadable queues, will improve that. Hopefully there will be decent worker automation.

	05-10-2001 07:13									#11
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Akron:

How is PW more micromanagement than workers? There are valid critisms of PW, but MM isn't one of them, IMNSHO.

Added: actually PW is macromanagement

	05-10-2001 09:32									#12
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As horrible as CTP/CTP2 were, one of the few things it improved upon was PW. However if there is some way to queue up orders for the workers or automate them, that would be fine.

	05-10-2001 09:38									#13
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as long as there are build ques and worker queues this shouldnt be aproblem...i hated playing later stages...especially when you are an expansionist like myself.

	05-10-2001 09:50									#14
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The CTP2 national manager worked really well for me.
A great many build orders could be given with just a few clicks, and it was very precise too.
(Inserting a factory into the build queue of every city with production over 100 is trivial)

But that was about the only part of CTP2 which was good , the general tile improvment and city workers style sucked, but I wouldn't be too quick to blame the suckiness on the PW's part.

	05-10-2001 11:18									#15
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Build queues (ala SMAC) go a long way towards reducing micro management. This allows you to control what your cities are doing completely, but allows you to not have to visit each city every turn. Apparently, the governors can also place your population in the optimal harvesting squared, so if you improve the terrain around a city, you dont need to enter the city to make sure they are using the correct terrain squares.

	05-10-2001 12:43									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Blake The CTP2 national manager worked really well for me. A great many build orders could be given with just a few clicks, and it was very precise too. (Inserting a factory into the build queue of every city with production over 100 is trivial) But that was about the only part of CTP2 which was good , the general tile improvment and city workers style sucked, but I wouldn't be too quick to blame the suckiness on the PW's part.

You should see a NATONAL MANAGER of CTP1, it is merged with build manager, and practicly is only screen I used when playing the game.
In CTP2 it is ruied, and you need too many CLICKS to make right decision.

Also I like placing WORKERS, in CTP2 that concept is BROKEN,
You build a FARM and insted of getting 10 FOOD you get 10*2/6=3.3
FOOD, because yours city is size 3!

	05-10-2001 12:47									#17
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Still, PW system is EXCILLENT!

One of main reasons of criticism was taht you can't build improvments outside your cities (CTP1) or BORDERS (CTP2).

That is FIXED in CTP2 where you can build FORTS outside yours borers,
if it is in sight of some of yours military units. Sine FORT generate
BORDERS, you can if you want to build AIRPORT to go to the place whit
a militay unit, build a FORT, and SEVERAL turns later it is inside your borders, and you can build a AIRPORT.

	05-10-2001 13:47									#18
	Re: Micromanagement. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard So what besides Mayors has Firaxis done to eliminate Micromanagement?

I think the farmlands have gone, that'll reduce some micromanagement.

	05-10-2001 15:45									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Wexu I think the farmlands have gone, that'll reduce some micromanagement.

How so? I am not quite sure how getting rid of farms reduces MM? You mean we don't have to plant the farms in the traditional manner?

	05-10-2001 15:56									#20
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Yup.

It was annoying to first build irrigation, then farmlands. But now it seems there aren't farmlands. (Screenshots)

Maybe now you have to just build some city improvement to get the same effect what farmlands did?

	05-10-2001 16:06									#21
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Sounds interesting. Can't wait to see how this is now handled

	05-10-2001 18:50									#22
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I like the micromanagement idea of Settlers and workers, it seems more realistic, since with PW you could build a new city and build everything it needs around it in a few turns with saved up PW ??? at least here it will take a lot of work and risk to loose your worker , I think that ads for better realism.
So called tile-improvements arround real cities took generations to build in the real world!

But I could agree with poeple who don't like it that there is an option to decide how you would like to play.

	05-10-2001 19:23									#23
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On the subject of MM, one thing about all of Sid's TBS games-- Civ, Civ2, and SMAC, is that to maximize a citys utilization of a resource other than food, you always have to do it manually, and any time a city grows in pop. you typically have to go and adjust what city squares its utilizing again because it always selects for maximum food.

Is there any chance that the city governer controls will include an option to select the resource priorities between shields, commerce, and food? I'd be happy to see anything that allows you to tell the AI which resource is the priority in a city instead of having to constantly adjust cities to avoid unwanted pop. growth and improve shield production or commerce.

	05-10-2001 22:37									#24
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Not really about gameplay, but the interface will require far fewer clicks than Civ2 (which makes a big difference with a large empire). For example you don't have to pull up city window to see what each city is building. This alone will make a huge difference. Also, there are a lot fewer popup messages. Should make MM less troublesome anyhow.

	05-10-2001 23:29									#25
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Well some micromanagement has been added for realism value.

The ability to upgrade units, it can only be done in cities now, which means you have to individually direct units back to cities for upgrades.

With every improvement, some new feature will add more stuff to do. I don't expect any dramatic reduction in micromanagement over SMAC, though every little bit helps

	05-10-2001 23:54									#26
	PW? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

What is PW?

	06-10-2001 00:09									#27
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Public Works was the Call to Power method of tile improvements. There weren't any worker units. You just had a quota of work points and used them to place terrain improvements.

	06-10-2001 01:13									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Moral Hazard Akron: How is PW more micromanagement than workers? There are valid critisms of PW, but MM isn't one of them, IMNSHO. Added: actually PW is macromanagement

As I think someone else already said, when you have a settler/worker, there were certain possible improvements you could build, but it was limited to the surrounding terrain. So it was pretty easy to choose what to develop. But with CTP, there was way too much planning involved in using PW. It was a headache to decide how to distribute PW points to different cities, and there was always one city that I'd forget to improve. Or I may forget to use PW for a few turns. Or I may start putting down farms but later realize that I need a fortress on one of my borders, but I won't have enough PW left. This was frustrating. With civ2, I had a settler/engineer for every city that would improve the terrain surrounding that city until either everything was improve or there was no need to further improve for a while (due to limitations such as sewer system requirements). If workers can be queued, then that will make the system much better.

	06-10-2001 01:24									#29
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quote: Originally posted by Akron If workers can be queued, then that will make the system much better.

No worker queue. Firaxis said so on the boards in the summer. Really sucks though, I wish they had implemented one, though I'm sure it'd be a pain in the a$s to code

	06-10-2001 01:35									#30
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No more farms?

I'm not entirely sure this is true!! We haven't seen any modern screenshots really.

Besides, I like the idea of building of up cities as I go, even if it can be tedious at times. It's fun to watch them grow from simpe villages of 10,000 to mega metropolises with 10 million! Building the farms was part of that to me... But hey I'm sure that if they're gone something better will replace them (I hope).