06-10-2001 05:04									#31
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Hoek What do you think of trying to integrate mutliplayer capabilities into the design?

I think that thats a question for Firaxis, not lowly scenario designers


As for the scenarios topic: I vote for a big WW 2 scenario. WW 2 scenarios are popular and fairly easy to make (and I should know - I've made two!)

	06-10-2001 05:27									#32
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Why should it be a question for firaxis? We already know there's going to be multiplayer and we already know there's going to be scenarios...isn't it a safe assumption to say that it is possible to play scenarios online?

I guess I meant moreso should we design scenarios with multiplayer as the basis for balancing, or should we design them based on the AI?

	06-10-2001 05:32									#33
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I agree that multiplayer ain't gonna happen any time soon, so deal with it if/when it happens. And anyways, that should depend on the individual project - some scenarios work well as multiplayer, some not at all.

Case,
Problem with a big ol' WW2 scenario is that there doesn't seem to be any events capability in the shipped game. I hope to God they fix that in the first patch or two, but who can tell when that will be ready. Until then, I don't see how a theater-wide or world-wide WW2 scenario is possible. Whereas I think an Eastern Front scenario is much more doable, cos you can just point the Russians and Germans at each other and have them go at it in one giant non-stop battle, without a lot of events (assuming the AI is smart).

Such a project could be a kind of training wheels exercise to ready people to do a WW2 scenario on a wider scope, once the game can handle it.

	06-10-2001 05:43									#34
	Support Apolyton

Harlan: where did you hear that there is no events capability? That would be a disaster. Do you have a link to that information or do you have a private source of info?

	06-10-2001 06:12									#35
	Put an end to popups!

A few days ago, Dan of Firaxis posted somewhere on these forums something to the effect of: "I don't know where the rumor got started that the game was shipping with a scripting or macro language". Perhaps someone can find the exact quote. I believe it was made a news item.

I'm assuming that by saying "shipping with" he's implying that will come later. Probably like multiplayer, they're being rushed to put the game out before its really ready, and so decided to postpone work on things that didn't absolutely need to be done when the game first shipped.

Really sucks for us scenario making types, hunh? Not to mention, how good can the scenarios coming with the game be if there's no events functionality?

	06-10-2001 06:29									#36
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

That does stink. I think these game companies too often rush products just to get them out there without trying to put a polished product out. I guess that's business though. There's no reason we can't get some preliminary work done before the scripting language comes out.

I was unaware that it wasn't coming with multiplayer capabilities. That really stinks! I'm sure Civ 3 will be good, but the fact is that there is a high demand for scenario-making tools in the civ community and there is also high demand for multiplay options. Firaxis would be stupid not to be speedy about developing an upgrade.

	06-10-2001 08:36									#37
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Harlan Case, Problem with a big ol' WW2 scenario is that there doesn't seem to be any events capability in the shipped game. I hope to God they fix that in the first patch or two, but who can tell when that will be ready. Until then, I don't see how a theater-wide or world-wide WW2 scenario is possible.

I guess Firaxis wants to extort more money by releasing scenario making tools later on.

quote: Originally posted by Harlan Whereas I think an Eastern Front scenario is much more doable, cos you can just point the Russians and Germans at each other and have them go at it in one giant non-stop battle, without a lot of events (assuming the AI is smart). Such a project could be a kind of training wheels exercise to ready people to do a WW2 scenario on a wider scope, once the game can handle it.

Good idea.

Another thing this 'collective' could do is to develop lots of units and maps to provide a database for scenario creation in the future.

	06-10-2001 09:17									#38
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I'll be a playtester

	06-10-2001 10:56									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

I guess we could provide some early graphics, but that isn't really right. My guess is that people will be pretty protective of their work, especially since Civ 3 graphics will be that much more complicated than Civ 2 graphics. If I get a website, one thing I'm hoping to do is to act as a sort of magnet for scenario creators. Collaboration is a great thing, and if we can bounce ideas off of one another, it will be that much better.

I'm a bit drunk right now, so it's possible i'm just spitting jibberish, but I probably stick to what I said in the morning.

	06-10-2001 11:06									#40
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Hoek My guess is that people will be pretty protective of their work, especially since Civ 3 graphics will be that much more complicated than Civ 2 graphics.

All the more reason to set up a 'collective' apporach.

	06-10-2001 11:15									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

haha...in the readme text, it'll be like movie credits...produced by Civ 3 Scenario-Makers Guild, directed by Hoek, sprites by ...etc.

lol

No, but seriously, i know that when allard and I ran a+a's civilization site, we really did act as a big resource for other scenario-makers, but that really isn't the idea here. The idea here is to collaborate within our group, so that we can still put some kind of claim to intellectual property. The idea is to get a group of people who are dedicated to what they are doing, and enjoy making these scenarios. I don't think people are going to part with their intellectual work very easily, despite the fact that we will release scenarios as final products. I remember when people gave Alex Mor alot of **** for trying to charge for his scenarios, but in reality, if you undertand the kind of work that goes into making a scenario, you'll understand why he did that, and why graphic authors insist that you credit them. This isn't business, but it's unethical to steal intellectual work, at leas that's what I think. But again, I'm drunk. There's a high likelyhood that I'll erase this in the morning.

	06-10-2001 12:57									#42
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i assume you try to make some money with the scenario stuff - you ARE drunk...

scenario and mod making should remain totally non-commercial. imho $$$ would suck the fun and idealism out of the creators. if someone is called for higher duties he/she should join a game company.

	06-10-2001 20:44									#43
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Almost forgot.

I can also provide pdf style documentation (tech tree posters, for example) that looks very professional.

Below is a sample to download and look at

Attachment: techtree.zip
This has been downloaded 21 time(s).

	06-10-2001 22:49									#44
	Get a bigger avatar today!

No, I wasn't suggesting that we should charge money. I was just using that as an example of someone who wanted to protect his work. I don't think people will want to make money off of it (nor should they), but I do think authors will want people to respect their intellectual work.

In terms of "setting up a database," that isn't really my goal with this thing yet. Perhaps it might become part of a website, but my goal is really to use the website to post our work, let people know about the guild, and post our progress on various works.

Andrew

	06-10-2001 22:51									#45
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Ooh, bit dodgy posting a CtP2 tech-tree in a Civ3 forum It is rather good-looking though, so

Oh yeah, my other speciality, harrassing Hex with emails

	06-10-2001 22:52									#46
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Oh wow! Hexagonian, that's really quite good! Can I put you down for documentation too?

	06-10-2001 23:10									#47
	Got spare money?

Firaxis will definitely support events etc. I'm willing to bet on it. I don't think they realized to what extent the mod community would expand upon Civ 2. But they were happy it did and they want to support this community as much as possible, not just because they are great guys, but because with all these free extensions to the game, that can only make the game itself more attractive to more consumers. So I have no worry that Firaxis will include or make available (probably for free) highly robust tools for scenario making.

If they don't include them, we can at least work on maps, concepts, units, etc. I have already plotted out a few maps of the largest (256x256) size, basing them on Civ 2 100x100 maps I've done at different scales.

Regarding possible commercial aspects and intellectual property issues, I will make my work available for free to all, but I just want credit, that's all. Everyone involved should get credit. It might be a good idea to collect voluntary payments, though ("If you like this scenario, please pay $1"). We could use the Amazon Honor System to collect. All money would go toward hosting and bandwidth costs for Apolyton, which is always so... darn... slow... (assuming this would be an Apolyton thing -- if not, then it could support whatever other Web site). I'm not suggesting that we require payments, but if this could help support Apolyton (or whoever hosts it), that would be great! Sorry if this idea offends anyone.

	06-10-2001 23:19									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Very nice tech tree, btw, hexagonian!

	06-10-2001 23:24									#49
	Put an end to popups!

@ hoek & el hidalgo

hmm, it seems that i misunderstood you. no offense you all know those "un-official" addons from dubious companies - collections of i-net levels, mods, scenarios and stuff which are sold for money (at least in europe). the authors never get any of those $$$ - just the lousy biz-men.
if you are planning a non-comercial group you'll have my support, no prob

btw, the only "commercial" stuff i'd accept are bonus-cd-rom/dvd which come along with game mags. pro-gamer attitude is a must.

	06-10-2001 23:33									#50
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Tres: are you interested in joining?

	07-10-2001 00:01									#51
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

well, i'm a one man army, idea, concept and process of scenario making is the main fun factor for me. i am not very good in teams, i think. but i'd like to give you my stuff for hosting and publication for a handful of credits

if your project gonna start we can talk about my participation - i hope that firaxis won't smash the scheduled date...

	07-10-2001 01:21									#52
	Support Apolyton

I can do events also, Hoek. If you need any more people, that is.

	07-10-2001 04:17									#53
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Thanks, KH. It seems that we have some good people assembled here.

	07-10-2001 05:41									#54
	Full PM-box? Change here!

I got something for us to work on to plan now:

I've been thinking about a modpack from the Atomic Age to the Nanotech Age. (Atomic, Info, Genetic, and Nanotech Ages)

That would be from say 1950 - 2500/3000.

I would like to brainstorm ideas with you guys about it and maybe work on the techs and units.

We can use historical research for the techs up to the end of the Info Age, and then using our imagination about what the future will be like, and with research on what is being researched today, make the future.

I've got some ideas for the tech tree, but I lost them.

	07-10-2001 07:20									#55
	Tired of ads?

hey Bill:

I love the idea...I took a class last year called "america in the 21st century", and we talked about alot of these issues. I suggest we set up an email ring to discuss details of possible scenarios, so as to sort of congeal the group.

Andrew

	07-10-2001 07:41									#56
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I could do rules.txt tweaking and playtesting. Don't expect me to be able to do much until December, though, with school, homework, sleep and all

	07-10-2001 07:53									#57
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Hoek:

Why don't you get ICQ at http://www.icq.com ? Most people in Apolyton use it, and it'll be a lot easier to talk to than email. Plus, my email's screwed up.

And I also think that we should make a website and apply for hosting here at Apolyton.

	07-10-2001 07:57									#58
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

bill: that's already in the works

I'll see what I can do about ICQ...i prefer AIM

	07-10-2001 08:24									#59
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

as i have no skills in scenario making i would like to test scenarios. i could a pretty good advisor...

	07-10-2001 08:30									#60
	Increase Your PM Length

I have made a full functioning modpack for CTP1, and made a whole new feature to it (sky), but I used other ppl's graphics because the Sprite tool doesnt work on my PC
otherwise I could be helpful in a whole heap of stuff, maybe ever error solving.