06-10-2001 06:28									#1
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http://www.voodooextreme.com/articl...rion3shots.html

many new ones, namely imsaeis and psilon screens, and at last some solar systems views ( planets and moons ).

	06-10-2001 10:11									#2
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i like the style of those grafix. reminds me a little bit of Babylon 5

	06-10-2001 12:24									#3
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Some of those game interface screens are absolutely cool. And there is that almost B5 feel to some of it isn't there.

I really like what they've done with the Planets screen. Primary and Secondary ordering criteria, with species viewing selector and numerous filters. Very nice.

The addition of having tax rates adjustable at multiple levels is also nice. Very realistic, and quite useful. Lets you place most of the tax burden on the oldest and most developed planets and systems, and allowing the newest frontier colonies time to mature.

I do have some questions though. What exactly is that screen with the Secret Police/Disinformation/Codes stuff all about?

I mean the Codes part makes sense and is an absolutly boffo part of the game. Though the cost to change the diplo codes seems a quite steep compared to the other two, considering that historically diplo codes are usually a little easier to crack than military or intel codes. And I think I understand the Disinfo. portion also. Though its not clear if the selections are for one time or continual disinformation. But the Secret Police part is weird. Guess we'll just have to wait and play the game to understand that.

I also like the Ground Combat screen. That little region section on the left almost makes it look like Ground Combat may actually be able to be stretched out over multiple turns, and invasions are a very serious thing to contemplate. Add the other planetary regional stuff shown on other screens and I start to wonder if multiple empires can actually share a planet?!?

Overall, MOO3 is looking cooler and cooler, and I really hope QS can get the contract for MOM2 down the road.

	06-10-2001 20:50									#4
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Very cool! I feel a litted bit short changed though, because I get the feeling that all the screenshots we've seen so far are not even nearly the tip of the iceberg that is MOO3. I still feel that a games such as MOO3 is too good to be true, especially after hearing Alan E. and the MOO3 team say that they would be cutting a part of the game that seemed at first so crucial (ethos). And of course, the've said more cuts maybe on their way.

On the planetary info/tax/revenue screens, I liked the feature of viewing the numbers in terms of monetary units or percentage. It definitely adds to my notion that this game is going to require more than just clicking through build queues and the likes, and I know it will require great thought and strategy.

And finally, I'm hoping that a MOO3 forum savior can pop in to this thread and clarify on the number major and minor civs possible during gameplay. Hopefully, they won't cut this area of the game, because I don't see how we could play without any civs (the game would just be a massive collection of cool screenshots)!

Quixote

"Now what do we have here? A comedian...Private Joker. I like you, hell you can come over my house and f*** my sister!"

Drill Seargent, Full Metal Jacket

	06-10-2001 23:06									#5
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Okay, answering various things here...

Yeah, it does remind one of B5...hadn't really thought of that myself. Neat.

What's the Secret Police/Codes screen all about? Well, you can set levels of an "Oppressometer" on various subsets of your people. Setting it higher gives you one group of effects, setting it lower a different group (the screen itself may mention that). So, for instance, if you really want to crack down hard on your leaders to help eliminate corruption and such, then crank that puppy up...but be prepared for a somewhat lower quality of leader overall, as your best and brightest look elsewhere.

The number on the Codes cost is a placeholder, nothing more. It won't really be that expensive. Same goes for many other numbers you see on those shots.

Ground combat CAN (and often WILL) take multiple turns. And while two civs can contest a given planet, only one can be getting any actual benefit from that planet. So no, no worlds like Traveller's Esalin.

At the start of gameplay, there can be up to 16 total civs, of which up to 8 can be human-controlled. During the course of the game, there can be up to 32 total civs. This part of the game isn't getting cut. And just in case you were asking something different, there are 16 different playable races in the game, and unlike the prior MOOs you can have more than one of any one of them at game start. (I remember a favorite thing of mine in MOO2 was doing a custom race and taking the Elerian picture to "lock them out" of the game; that won't work in MOO3).

	07-10-2001 00:58									#6
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!Molto grazie Seniore Stormhound! Now, if you could just tell us everything else you know about MOO3....
This may not be likely, so I'll ask just a few very small questions:

Elerians were always trouble in MOO2, and as long as you've brought it up, I'd like to ask you about the tech tree and research. I've read on the site that researching all techs will not be possible, but is this true of every race? Is there no way to compliment such a race trait (was it omniscience that granted access to all tech) with some sort of severe handicap? Will there be race specific techs? And also, will races or civs tend to research certain technologies game by game?

And another note on the new screenshots. I noticed that the "star lanes connecting the stars" screenshot slightly resembled an old, no content, a little bit addictive, shareware game called Stellar Empires. Ring a bell?

Also noticed the "To Do List" tab...will this be a memo pad sort of thing, or...?

You've told us that planets cannot be shared (cannot benefit two civs), but solar systems can, right? How about moons? Can moons be split up among several civs, or are they basically attached to whoever colonizes the planet?

So many more questions to ask!
Why torture us with this game. You should have simply released it without an PR!!

snuck back in to ask a final question: You mentioned 16 playble civs, and upto 32 civs in one game. Will there be like different factions of the same race, that is humans living under 2 or three different goverments in neigboring systems?

Quixote

Last edited by Don K Hotay on 07-10-2001 at 01:06

	07-10-2001 01:02									#7
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Yeh, I like the graphics too. They are slightly stylistic, which to me is good. It almost makes you feel like you're in a story, rather than a simulation.

I also noticed the layered tax system and empire administration. Very nice.

I'm somewhat dubious of the oppressometer, but will have to see how it plays.

	07-10-2001 01:26									#8
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(g) If I told you everything I knew, I'd have to shoot us both.

Tech research: It's theoretically possible that you could research all the techs, in much the same way as it's possible for it to snow in Atlanta in July (it might happen, but it's not what you'd call likely). All techs are open to all races, but not all races will necessarily take the same path to any given tech. As for tendencies to research, probably, but that's an AI issue and I don't do AI.

Stellar Empires...I'm sure I've heard of it, but I don't recall anything about it. The concept of lanes isn't anything remotely new, and I've seen comparisons to various games.

I'm not sure that I can say much about the "To Do List", other than that it would be a way to pre-plan actions for the next turn. The idea is that especially for games using the timer, faster players could do some planning ahead instead of just sitting and twiddling their thumbs.

Solar systems can be shared. Moons/asteroid belts/etc. are treated like individual planets, and can't be shared, but each moon can be owned by someone different.
Races: if you decide to play humans, and I decide to play humans, then our two groups are completely unaffiliated and may well reside in distant parts of the map. You can have an entire game full of nothing but humans (or any other race) with independent civilizations...in fact, there are some parts of the design which might make that a very interesting sort of setup. The way you can get to 32 is by revolts and civil wars, in which case you could certainly end up with several contiguous civs of the same race. Have I answered your question yet? (G)

	07-10-2001 04:40									#9
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I really like the icons design in the Secret Police screen.

About the 16 races at the start with a possible 32 later on, resulting from revolts/civil wars, can we say that the average number of players will generally be no more than 20-22, since it should be highly unlikely to see the 16 empires be torned apart by rebels in any particular game ? I know this is an interesting feature part of the AI programming , but will it be hard to control when playing ?

	07-10-2001 09:16									#10
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At this point, I lack sufficient data to give a meaningful answer, MM.

	07-10-2001 11:37									#11
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Stormhound, Thank you for the clarifications.

The Secret Police thing makes much more sense now, although I would have thought that with the way you describe it, there should be an indicator of how much that is going to cost you on that screen. Two other questions now come to mind, though.

1. What with the extensive use of AI governers, does the Secret Police have any tendancy to try to increase its pervasiveness, or resist reduction of said opression, under any of the government types? For example, if you had set the Secret Police setting for Friendly Leaders to a strict setting then later moved it to a lenient one, will you have to watch it to make sure it actually stays low? I am wondering because I know under oppressive governments there is a very strong tendancy for the Secret Police apparat to resist any reduction in their powers once they have gained them.

2. On costs, something just came to mind that I'm not sure I've ever seen in any sort of Civ-type or 4X empire game, and that is a government type where any level of defict spending was allowed. No chance that we'll see something like this is there? Like the Secret Police power thing, it would make sense that certain government types would be able to defict-spend to some degree. Though I could understand if it were not included because it would be rather tricky to balance so that civ wasn't able to go completely hog-wild and overwhealm everyone else.



As for the possiblity of games where everyone is the same race. Very Nice. Very Very Nice. If nothing else, it becomes a good way of showing someone who really is better in an MP game by eliminating the excuse that the map wasn't a good one for their race.

	07-10-2001 18:49									#12
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1) There is a constant political dance going on over both the Secret Police settings and many other policies; this dance is influenced primarily by which species your race is, which type of government you have, and which factions are the most powerful within that government. Internal Security is, BTW, one of the factions. So we've got you covered.

2) Deficit spending is allowed, and there are limits to how much you can do and what effect it'll have on you, and you have to pay interest on the deficit. Also, since there are multiple levels of banks, individual banks can run deficits while others have a surplus; there are ways to move that money around to where it's needed. I don't think I can pass out more details right now, but again we've got you covered.

	07-10-2001 20:36									#13
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Firstly Stormhound, you did indeed answer most of my question(s), except about the "To do list", but from what you did mention about it, I guess it will be primarily used for multiplayer (so it does not concern me that much).

Nice, so deficit spending is in. I guess that means there will be different ways to accumulate debt. How exactly will we be able to use debt? Lets say I want to rush buy a building or a ship, and my treasury is already at zero, can I simply click on buy and go automatically into debt? Or, would bonds be issued. Aside from being gifted money from another civ, is it possible to loan and be loaned money from other civs?

And as long as we are talking about money, what ways besides taxes will be sources of cash inflows? Will civs be able to trade arms/resources/food/slaves/tech....what else? And rather than recieving annual income from this trade, is it possible to get lump somes of money for like a one time deal?

Also, what will "Planet Classification" be all about?

	08-10-2001 01:26									#14
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Don't count on being able to rush-buy things in MOO3. Aside from that, if you have your economy set up to allow deficit spending, and you allocate more money than the budget would allow, you simply go into a deficit. The interest rate you pay will depend on some factors I can't get into yet, but it'll be turn-by-turn rather than issuing bonds. I don't think you'll be able to loan money between civs in a formal, binding way, but see the answer to the next question.

Taxes will be the primary source of income, but civs WILL be able to trade some things. A quick list of things that can be traded (just from my memory): Cash, ships (loaned or given), planets, access to strategic minerals, technology, ships, star maps, military intelligence, support for Orion Senate votes, trade concessions, various levels of military alliances, tribute. Any of these can be traded for any other in combinations of up to five items. So yes, you could make extra money by (for example) building high-tech ships cheaply and selling them to your neighbors for a profit.

Planet classification...if you could tell me a little more of what you mean (is it with regard to terraforming, or grouping worlds for giving orders, or what?) then I'll be happy to tackle the question for you.

	08-10-2001 14:14									#15
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THis game is looking great

Thanx for more screenshots

	09-10-2001 00:29									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound Planet classification...if you could tell me a little more of what you mean (is it with regard to terraforming, or grouping worlds for giving orders, or what?) then I'll be happy to tackle the question for you.

I wanted to know what parts of the game would it be of use...so I guess it will help in figuring out effects of terraforming and so forth? I'm refering to this screen shot: Planet info screen

We'll be able to classify planets in two ways...how else will this come into play

	09-10-2001 01:10									#17
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Ahhh, okay, now I follow you. (And thanks for that link, it made it very easy to answer the question. You get a gold star for being helpful, or at least you would if there was one in the icon list (g).)

The use of classification is for giving orders to groups of planets: "All Industrial planets should add a Neutron Factory to their build queue" or "All New Colonies should build a Mark I Missile Defense Battery". Each world can be put into two classifications, to allow for more flexibility. I don't have the current list handy; last time I saw it there were at least a couple of dozen possible groups. I believe that all "do this/build this" type orders for planets can be given to such groups, and I believe that terraforming orders fall into this category as well.

Basically, it's a way of letting you macromanage instead of having to go in and adjust 200 different colonies individually every time you come up with some new tech toy.

BTW, this is also a great time to point out that not everything in the game gets built at the planet level. Some things are built at the regional level, or system/sector/empire levels.

	09-10-2001 22:52									#18
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Speaking of B5, the Klackons now look a lot like the Shadows

	09-10-2001 23:21									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound Basically, it's a way of letting you macromanage instead of having to go in and adjust 200 different colonies individually every time you come up with some new tech toy.

awesome. Seniore Stormhound, you should make sure a feature like this does not get cut! In fact, you should lobby other civ/turn based games to implement this feature. MOO2 had three classifications, but it was really of no use to players.

Also, what are some things that can be built at the other three levels aside from the planet level (there are four levels of the game, right?) Somethings that comes to mind from MOO3 is the Artemis Net and the Jump gate, which seem like good candidates for building at a system level.

When building at the system level, are other races allowed to be in that system, or do they have to be cleared out in order to build.

	09-10-2001 23:44									#20
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To give you a smattering of detail...

There are unrest-reducing "buildings" (I use the term loosely) which can be built at each level, just for example. Those built at a more local level have more effect, but only affect the region they're in. Those built way up at the empire level affect every region on every planet, but they don't have as much effect.

Work on Jump lanes is a System-level activity. Building ship production facilities is (I believe) a planet-level activity. Developing your ability to refit and reorganize ships is a sector-level activity.

There are five levels: Empire, Sector, System, Planet, Region.

Macromanagement is not even in the same galaxy with the cut list, I assure you. It's a requirement of having IFP; without it you'd never be able to get anything done.

A system does not have to be wholly yours for you to have a system government there, or for you to do system-level things. However, certain things (like development of jump lanes) can be opposed by someone who also has a system government there (or, for that matter, they could even assist you...)

	10-10-2001 02:41									#21
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Wow, its hard to believe that the empires in their entirety will be made up of all the regions, of the all the planets, in all the systems, in every sector. So, what will this region level be like then?, that is, what role will, perhaps up to a thousand individual regions, play in the grand scheme of the empire?

will governors/eadership be assigned to regions? how about to planets?, systems:yes, Sectors?

How many regions are there on a planet? Up to nine planets (with each up to four moons) in a system.....how many systems in a sector?

	10-10-2001 03:09									#22
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There is a ton of stuff going on here. Are you sure this game can still be played on a mere PC?

	10-10-2001 03:27									#23
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Well, let's see...if one takes "normal" numbers for the biggest galaxy, you get about 256*5*3*5 or 19,200 regions, give or take. Regions are where you build DEAs, which are what determine the output of the planet; you can make a planet into just about anything by building different DEAs there. Any given planet can have 1-12 regions, based on the size of the planet (or other body).

Planets will have viceroys; regions won't have anything. Each higher level has someone in charge.

And yes, we're sure. PCs can handle math pretty quickly, and that's what most of this is.

	10-10-2001 04:53									#24
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Two questions.

1. What does DEA stand for in MOO3? Maybe its just me, but I've never seen this acronym used in a MOO3 context before.

2. Your statements about MacroManagement and IFPs almost imply to me that orders given to a broad category ie. "all industrial planets" might cost less in terms of IFPs than going to every single industrial planet and giving the same orders individually. Is this the case?

	10-10-2001 06:26									#25
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Oops...sorry. DEA is Dominant Economic Activity (such as Mining, Industry, Government, etc.). Each region can have two.

An order given to a broad category would not cost you more than 1 IFP. Were you to go around and issue that order to each planet individually, it would cost you 1 IFP per planet. Yes, there's something of a savings there.

	10-10-2001 10:46									#26
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You have probably answered this many times, but how are IFP's generated again? Will certain governement types or races allow for more or less?

Are those the only three DEA's? What about research

And if you don't mind me sidestepping again, I'd like to ask about how spying will work. I wasn't a big fan of it in MOO2, because it never ever worked in my favor, as it did for the AI races, no matter how many spies I had and what techs I researched.

	10-10-2001 19:13									#27
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IFP: There's a base number, and government type and one race pick will adjust that. There are also possible in-game effects that could change how many you get.

DEAs: Well, I did put an "etc." on the list...I was just giving examples. There are 6-7 different ones, if memory serves, but I don't think we've released the whole list.

Spying: Way too big and hairy a beast for me to get into here. You'd be better off going to the main site and reading the data dump. Short-short version: you recruit spies, train them in different skills, and send them off on specific missions. There are lots of different choices.

	10-10-2001 20:05									#28
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quote: Short-short version: you recruit spies, train them in different skills, and send them off on specific missions. There are lots of different choices.

like in Imperium Galactica II? i hope so coz this spy-engine is much more "spyish" than the old moo2 pile-ups

	10-10-2001 21:34									#29
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The spy engine is quite ambitious and far more advanced than anything on the market now. I won't be surprised if some cuts are to be made within. For those not familiar with, there is an old article here , describing MoO3's spying pretty well and not really updated yet unless you have a LOT of time to spend trying to find a few recent QSI posts (good luck).

The main MoO3's datadump page is here , but forget the Religion/Ethos since it has been cut.

Does the Passive spying be sufficient to play peacemaker/hybrid at the highest difficulty levels, or do we have to play mostly the Active spying in order to succeed ???( Hope the AI will not be too swift and out of a whim - it is in MoO2 - when asking something or performing a single sabotage ).

	10-10-2001 23:16									#30
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(g) You're good at asking questions for which there are no simple answers. The balance of spying is just one of those things we'll have to keep an eye on in playtesting; as with most things in the game, the goal is to make it so that you can run it any way you want to and still be reasonably successful...it's the combination of all your actions in opposition to your those of your enemies that determines the overall result.