09-10-2001 01:37									#1
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Guess the release date of the Mac version of Civ 3? I want to be optimistic, but I'm guessing it won't be out any sooner than February. Hopefully I'll be proven wrong....

	09-10-2001 03:02									#2
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january at best. westlake's recent status update was less than encouraging.

	09-10-2001 05:41									#3
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Everyone:

Sometime before April 2002, I hope. The way things are looking, I might use Civ III as an excuse to buy a whole new iMac, rather than bothering to upgrade the OS and hunt down new memory.

According to Apple, OSX.1 requires 128 RAM!!!!!!!! Jesus! My iMac has 160 RAM! Besides that, I'm not sure where to look if I just want to upgrade to 0S9 ... in the long run, it'd probably be better to get OSX, though. Regarding RAM, I don't like having to rip the guts out of my machine in order to install new memory chips (had to do that once to get it to 160 RAM).

One way or another, I am getting Civ III. What I'll do w/my 'puter is another situation.

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 05:56									#4
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I think your iMac should run OS 10.1 fine if it has 160 megs of RAM. My G3 has 192 megs, but the processor is probably slower than yours and OS 10.1 runs great. The only problem I have with X is that it doesn't support the old Mac serial ports, so I can't print or use my peripherals, but your iMac should have USB which is fully supported. You might want to get a second opinion, but I think you're good to go.

	09-10-2001 06:02									#5
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Drake:

I like your words of optimism. Yet an OS that takes 128 of my 160 RAM leaves precious little leftover for other programs to use. I suppose I could use Virtual Memory if I became desperate enough. Or add memory if I don't mind seeing my machine's guts spread out on my bed again.

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 06:09									#6
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I may be wrong, but I don't think OS X ever comes close to using 128 megs of RAM. Isn't the recommended amount of memory for the OS and the applications? I think you would be pleasantly suprised by the memory management system in OS X, the multitasking is excellent. I've had 6+ apps open, plus Classic before and iTunes never even missed a beat. But again don't quote me on this, just telling you my experience.

	09-10-2001 07:16									#7
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Drake:

OS plus apps equals 128 RAM recommendation? That's not so bad, but the part of Apple's Web site on was on didn't specify. It just said RAM requirements were 128. Maybe I'll do some more digging around as time (and enthusiasm) permit.

CYBERAmazon

	09-10-2001 07:30									#8
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i think the game will be out in spring at the earliest, but i'm hoping it'll have fewer bugs that our pc brethren catch.

the new news has me convinced i'll have to upgrade to os9

	09-10-2001 07:44									#9
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http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...&threadid=28663

evidently not, thank God.

	09-10-2001 07:47									#10
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just saw that, although terribly embarrased i am releaved

	09-10-2001 23:54									#11
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quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon I like your words of optimism. Yet an OS that takes 128 of my 160 RAM leaves precious little leftover for other programs to use. I suppose I could use Virtual Memory if I became desperate enough.

It's important to realize that OSX handles memory totally different from the classic MacOS. VM is always on, and works like it does in Windows or Unix. Applications and games don't have fixed memory sizes that you twiddle with - they take RAM on demand.

The VM in OSX is much more efficient than the classic MacOS - it pages in memory as the apps need it, not based on goofy Finder settings. Classic is a bit of a memory suck though, so if you run it, 128 is probably the minimum to keep your hard drive from thrashing a lot.

Brad

	10-10-2001 03:19									#12
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Hey, a civ 3 mac programmer. Care to take a guess on the release date
Incidentally, I've heard that some programs don't work on OS X Classic (*coughSMAXcough*). Can anyone confirm or deny this?

	10-10-2001 04:05									#13
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I think you can get around that by running in OS9 mode. I'm pretty sure OSX can handle all past and present mac software that way.

	10-10-2001 04:48									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Admiral Incidentally, I've heard that some programs don't work on OS X Classic (*coughSMAXcough*). Can anyone confirm or deny this?

I have not heard that. It seems to work fine for me.

Brad

	10-10-2001 05:54									#15
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We wouldn't expect a major release for the Mac to be out in time for the holiday shopping season, now would we? That would be contrary to the Wintel plans for world domination.

	10-10-2001 07:26									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Rue We wouldn't expect a major release for the Mac to be out in time for the holiday shopping season, now would we? That would be contrary to the Wintel plans for world domination.

settle down, they're doing their best

	10-10-2001 10:49									#17
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quote: Originally posted by bradman It's important to realize that OSX handles memory totally different from the classic MacOS. VM is always on, and works like it does in Windows or Unix. Applications and games don't have fixed memory sizes that you twiddle with - they take RAM on demand. The VM in OSX is much more efficient than the classic MacOS - it pages in memory as the apps need it, not based on goofy Finder settings. Classic is a bit of a memory suck though, so if you run it, 128 is probably the minimum to keep your hard drive from thrashing a lot. Brad

I wasn't aware of that factual tidbit. Come to think of it, there's a whole lot of things I am not "up to snuff" on in regards to OS10.1. I've been putting off having to even think about upgrading/buying a new computer ... but I shall not be denied the magical Civ III Macintosh Experience!

Since the game won't be released until February or March (hopefully not later than that), I'll use the interim to look up stuff regarding OS10.1 as time and enthusiasm allow for.

CYBERAmazon

	10-10-2001 22:17									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Rue We wouldn't expect a major release for the Mac to be out in time for the holiday shopping season, now would we? That would be contrary to the Wintel plans for world domination.

There are a lot of half-assed Mac conversions out there already. I'm not anxious to be part of another just to make Christmas. I'm a firm believer in releasing software when it's done. And as I've said before, there's an outside chance it could make Christmas if everything goes perfect, but it's a real slim chance.

Brad

	10-10-2001 22:30									#19
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quote: Originally posted by bradman There are a lot of half-assed Mac conversions out there already. I'm not anxious to be part of another just to make Christmas. I'm a firm believer in releasing software when it's done. And as I've said before, there's an outside chance it could make Christmas if everything goes perfect, but it's a real slim chance. Brad

I couldn't have said it any better myself (maybe that's because I'm not actually making the mac version). I'd much rather wait an extra couple of months for a quality product than get a piece of crap port before Christmas. I want this game very badly, but I've waited for years already and if Brad and the rest of the Westlake team need four or five months to make the Mac version of Civ3, I'm fine with it. Besides, its not their fault Firaxis released the game at the end of October. No one can port a game well in two months....

	10-10-2001 22:40									#20
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quote: There are a lot of half-assed Mac conversions out there already.

really? most of them have been equal if not better to the PC version...The Sims, MPGE, Elite Force, Alpha Centauri, Risk. besides, most popular mac games are released by your company, so watch what you say.

	11-10-2001 00:55									#21
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf really? most of them have been equal if not better to the PC version...The Sims, MPGE, Elite Force, Alpha Centauri, Risk. besides, most popular mac games are released by your company, so watch what you say.

Yes, mostly everything we've ever done has been very good, quality-wise. I was speaking of all the others we haven't done, of which there are still plenty. The worst port I've seen in a long, long time was Driver. It's just hideous. I loved the game and was really looking forward to it, but the Mac port just makes me want to cry.

Brad

	12-10-2001 03:43									#22
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I'm sure the folks at macsoft would disagree

how many sales would translate into a good showing, in the mac market? 30,000-40,000? I'm not much into numbers, sorry if I'm way off. Driver IIRC did well, didn't it?

	12-10-2001 07:13									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf how many sales would translate into a good showing, in the mac market? 30,000-40,000? I'm not much into numbers, sorry if I'm way off. Driver IIRC did well, didn't it?

The definition of good in terms of sales numbers can vary due to the cost of the port. Some games have a lot of code (or very complex code) and thus a very high development cost to port (e.g. Civ: Call to Power). Some games are relatively trivial to port (e.g. Alice or any q3-engine game). Discouting all that for a moment, I think 30k is a pretty good showing. 50k is fantastic, 75k+ is a very rare runaway success. We tend to judge the success by the game if it turns a profit and we then see royalties. There's a reason there are so many Sims expansion packs and Tomb Raider games.

I don't know how Driver did - in general we don't see numbers for games we didn't work on. I have heard about a number of games I would have thought sold better but in actuality barely did 10k units on the Mac. In a couple of cases, it was the Mac publisher bungling the job - Railroad Tycoon II and Rune jump to mind. I wouldn't trust Gathering of Developers to publish a Christmas newsletter, let alone a Mac game. As fate would have it, they're out of business now so the point is moot.

Brad

	12-10-2001 07:48									#24
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I take it the sims, LL, and HP are somewhere in the 20-40,000 range, right? if so I'm getting good at this

westlake seems to be the only major mac-exclusive (overlooking deus ex ps2 ) conversion house out there...several others surface, but I don't remember many of them sticking around for long.

speaking of deus ex, won't the sales of a game on an FPS-craving, play-oriented platform be considerably more than the average computer product released to users with many different and varying interests? in other words, I take it you guys are expecting a lot of dough from your multi platform project right off the bat, as DX is making a lot of noise on the street.

Don't get any "stepping stone" ideas, westlake...

quote: We wouldn't expect a major release for the Mac to be out in time for the holiday shopping season, now would we? That would be contrary to the Wintel plans for world domination.

if I keep him at 'poly long enough, there isn't a prayer. *flashes Microsoft ID card*

	12-10-2001 09:55									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Wiglaf I take it the sims, LL, and HP are somewhere in the 20-40,000 range, right? if so I'm getting good at this

I've never enquired about the numbers for the Sims games, but one thing I have heard over and over is that they're now the best-selling titles we've done.

quote: westlake seems to be the only major mac-exclusive (overlooking deus ex ps2 ) conversion house out there...several others surface, but I don't remember many of them sticking around for long.

Well, there's Omni (OSX only), MumboJumbo - formerly Logicware/Contraband (BG2, AvP and some others, aside from Myth III), Elegant Chaos (Sim Theme Park, Black & White) and Varcon (Vampire, Rogue Spear, Civ 2).

quote: speaking of deus ex, won't the sales of a game on an FPS-craving, play-oriented platform be considerably more than the average computer product released to users with many different and varying interests? in other words, I take it you guys are expecting a lot of dough from your multi platform project right off the bat, as DX is making a lot of noise on the street.

Yes, but you have to realize also that it costs a lot more to do that port than any Mac conversion we've ever done. Those PS2 tools don't come free, and the development time is 2 of our guys (and a horde of Ion Storm people) working full time for about a year, compared to 1 or 2 guys working 3-6 months on a Mac project. As Mark A. has said before, Westlake's focus has always been and will always continue to be the Mac, unless of course Apple goes belly-up. Most of us here don't have any desire to do console work, myself included. I love what I do, and don't really want to switch.

Brad

	12-10-2001 19:59									#26
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quote: Well, there's Omni (OSX only), MumboJumbo - formerly Logicware/Contraband (BG2, AvP and some others, aside from Myth III), Elegant Chaos (Sim Theme Park, Black & White) and Varcon (Vampire, Rogue Spear, Civ 2).

never heard of 'em

quote: Yes, but you have to realize also that it costs a lot more to do that port than any Mac conversion we've ever done. Those PS2 tools don't come free, and the development time is 2 of our guys (and a horde of Ion Storm people) working full time for about a year, compared to 1 or 2 guys working 3-6 months on a Mac project.

if DX sells huge (500,000-million), would that be enough to offset the costs of a ps2 port and turn a massive profit? not that I know what I'm talking about, but you're, at the very least, getting a lot of visibility out of this.

quote: As Mark A. has said before, Westlake's focus has always been and will always continue to be the Mac, unless of course Apple goes belly-up. Most of us here don't have any desire to do console work, myself included. I love what I do, and don't really want to switch.

I don't trust MumboJumbo either

	12-10-2001 21:47									#27
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My first thread at Apolyton is a two pager!

	13-10-2001 02:43									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Drake Tungsten My first thread at Apolyton is a two pager!

an even greater accomplishment when considering the forum

but we have a disagreement over what a page is, don't we?

this one's almost 3 on my browser