10-10-2001 17:12									#1
	No caravans - how to rush wonders? Full PM-box? Change here!

This has almost certainly been talked about before but I did a search and couldn't find an answer so...

Given that trading is now done through the magic trade screen, and there are no more caravan/freight units (right?), is it going to be possible to store production for later use on a Wonder in some other way?

I always find myself overproducing at times, and I know that by stockpiling caravans that that production is not wasted... also having a few caravans to hand means I can rush-finish a Wonder if I get the 'X is about to finish United Nations', or whatever. Is there going to be a mechanism for this?

	10-10-2001 17:17									#2
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I think that can be done by great leaders. I'm not sure about it since details about what great leaders can do has been very scarce. I was wondering more about them myself.

	10-10-2001 17:20									#3
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Cold hard cash?

	10-10-2001 17:20									#4
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As far as I know: There will be a feature called great leaders (there are threads about these, but some info can be found at www.civ3.com ). These leaders can be sacrificed (in another words : killed ) to rush-build things in cities. These leaders are thus lost.

Related question: Am I right? The main purpose of leaders is to create armies?

	10-10-2001 17:25									#5
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo As far as I know: There will be a feature called great leaders (there are threads about these, but some info can be found at www.civ3.com ). These leaders can be sacrificed (in another words : killed ) to rush-build things in cities. These leaders are thus lost. Related question: Am I right? The main purpose of leaders is to create armies?

I must say the idea of having a great leader rush a wonder comes accross as quite silly. So now suddenly the great general knows how to magically construct a magnificient building, and demands that when it is done he can enjoy an early retirement... or how should one imagine this process?

	10-10-2001 17:45									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy I must say the idea of having a great leader rush a wonder comes accross as quite silly....

Yes, it's weird. I think that this feature is in only, because they (fire-axis) want to make the rush-building things more costly than it was in previous games.

Like in SMAC - you could rush-build Secret Projects (read: wonders) in two ways: by using the supply convoys (like caravans in original civ) and with alien artifacts (could be found in the planet; much like leaders). There was also another use for alien artifacts, but i won't tell about it here, 'cos it's not relevant.

	10-10-2001 17:51									#7
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Yes, it's weird. I think that this feature is in only, because they (fire-axis) want to make the rush-building things more costly than it was in previous games. Like in SMAC - you could rush-build Secret Projects (read: wonders) in two ways: by using the supply convoys (like caravans in original civ) and with alien artifacts (could be found in the planet; much like leaders). There was also another use for alien artifacts, but i won't tell about it here, 'cos it's not relevant.

Yeah a gameplay thingie. The other thing was completing a technological advance. :P

	10-10-2001 18:00									#8
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Great leaders are not only great because their military abilities, most of the leaders that were good at war was because they were good organizers, and they managed their resources in the best possible way. So I think Julius Caesar could have devoted his geniality in organizing the construction of a wonder.

	10-10-2001 18:12									#9
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I thought that you needed great leaders in order to be able to construct certain wonders? Well we will have to wait and see...

	10-10-2001 18:16									#10
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For the most part the "ancient leaders" were the people who had the most education or knew how to organize and deploy large groups of people effectively. How do you think Alexander managed his armies across so much terrain, including resupplying and out-fitting them, etc?

Ceasar, Napolean, etc? Most of the truly great leaders of their time WERE the highest educated and thus had the skills to organize all aspects of a large army, empire, etc to get what they wanted done.

If you look at history (and know a little about it) you'll see this isn't tht far off the mark at all.

	10-10-2001 18:31									#11
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Great leaders can be used to build an army, rush a project, and there was something else I can't remember.

So great leaders will be neccessary to rush projects for an OCC game. I wonder if you can stockpile them to build shakespeare, Ribannah, and Paul's on successive turns...

	10-10-2001 18:35									#12
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Well that just seems to suggest that they allow you the capacity to rush them, ie, if you have great leaders, you can rush buy the project. But who knows, looks like we will have to wait until the game is available...

	10-10-2001 18:40									#13
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The difficulty is that great leaders will (apparently) only arise from elite units who are repeatedly successful in battle. So you won't get any great non-military leaders appearing. This reinforces my suspicion that leader farming is going to become one of the key strategies in Civ 3, either by using an elite unit to defeat anything that emerges from a conveniently located barbarian hut, by keeping once city of a defeated opponent alive to use as a whipping boy or another method.

	10-10-2001 18:42									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast ...I wonder if you can stockpile them to build shakespeare, Ribannah, and Paul's on successive turns...

Ribannah....? What is that (in addition to that she's a member of Apolyton)?

	10-10-2001 20:59									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast Great leaders can be used to build an army, rush a project, and there was something else I can't remember. So great leaders will be neccessary to rush projects for an OCC game. I wonder if you can stockpile them to build shakespeare, Ribannah, and Paul's on successive turns...

Father, I think Great Leaders can be added to armies to improve their effectiveness in combat.

	10-10-2001 21:02									#16
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quote: Originally posted by Father Beast Great leaders can be used to build an army, rush a project, and there was something else I can't remember. So great leaders will be neccessary to rush projects for an OCC game. I wonder if you can stockpile them to build shakespeare, Ribannah, and Paul's on successive turns...

Last thing is they can found an academy so that you won't need a great leader to make armies.

	10-10-2001 21:25									#17
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quote: Originally posted by aaglo Yes, it's weird. I think that this feature is in only, because they (fire-axis) want to make the rush-building things more costly than it was in previous games. Like in SMAC - you could rush-build Secret Projects (read: wonders) in two ways: by using the supply convoys (like caravans in original civ) and with alien artifacts

You forgot my favorite rush-build method: keep building a wonder that's already been built, and then switch to a new wonder when it becomes available.

Personally, I don't think switching from one wonder to another (or one building to another or one unit to another) should be allowed at all. You should have to start over from scratch.

As for the Great Leader allowing a rush build, this makes perfect sense. The Great Leader is applying his/her talents and leadership to completion of the wonder. What's silly about this?

	10-10-2001 21:28									#18
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold This reinforces my suspicion that leader farming is going to become one of the key strategies in Civ 3....

From what I've seen, I believe there is a limit to the number of great leaders that can be generated for a Civ. And it's probably a very limited number considering how powerful they are.

	10-10-2001 21:35									#19
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That is possible, but even so it will be advantageous to 'farm' your maximum number as early as possible, have elite units poised to create another one at the sudden loss/wonder expenditure of an existing one etc. The actual mechanics of the process will certainly depend on how the game implements them.

	10-10-2001 21:50									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold That is possible, but even so it will be advantageous to 'farm' your maximum number as early as possible, have elite units poised to create another one at the sudden loss/wonder expenditure of an existing one etc. The actual mechanics of the process will certainly depend on how the game implements them.

I wonder if you can have more than one Great Leader at a time... it would be cool if they limited you to one at a time. That would avoid some of the unbalancing effects.

Hmm... hmm! I'm growing weary of the wait-and-see thing. I'm ready to play now.

	10-10-2001 22:31									#21
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Yeah now that I think about it, the peaceful player's not gonna have a whole lot of great leaders... Thus, rush building will become a thing of the past... What good is cash then? One would think if you can't rush build stuff, then the only other use for cash is diplomacy and upkeep...

???

It can't be this *funky* can it?

???

	10-10-2001 22:35									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Stuie As for the Great Leader allowing a rush build, this makes perfect sense. The Great Leader is applying his/her talents and leadership to completion of the wonder. What's silly about this?

There's nothing silly to me- but perhaps I am merely confused- this chump horseman can apply his leadership to rush build, but ME, the GREATEST LEADER OF THEM ALL (according to my population), has no such power... ??? ???

A very simple question: what CAN be rush built WITHOUT a great leader?

	10-10-2001 22:50									#23
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On the matter of whether a Great Leader is killed when rush-building a Wonder, www.civfanatics.com has this to say:

"Great Leaders may be used to hurry (rush build) a city's construction project - very nice when you're building a wonder.
Each race has a stable of great leaders that are drawn from when you create one. They live until used for either rush building an improvement or building an army."

	10-10-2001 22:54									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold The difficulty is that great leaders will (apparently) only arise from elite units who are repeatedly successful in battle. So you won't get any great non-military leaders appearing. This reinforces my suspicion that leader farming is going to become one of the key strategies in Civ 3, either by using an elite unit to defeat anything that emerges from a conveniently located barbarian hut, by keeping once city of a defeated opponent alive to use as a whipping boy or another method.

It isn't that easy. I don't know what the exact calculations are, but I do know that Great Leaders are only spawned from "great" military victories (hence the name). Trouncing a couple of barbarians with an elite knight isn't going to cut it. In my experience, it's happened *very* infrequently, to the point where having the militaristic ability as one of your civ abilities and/or building the Heroic Epic (Small Wonder) are really important if you want to see Great Leaders appearing.

It's supposed to be something that doesn't happen often, and when it does, you have a tough decision to make. Should you rush a wonder, or build that army? Or, do you hold onto your leader for later? It's certainly not intended to be the kind of thing that happens on a regular basis.

As far as the Civ III rush caravan buy goes, I can see a couple of problems with it in Civ III. First off, we don't have caravans anymore Second, because wonders generate a LOT of culture, rush buying wonders with caravans is basically equivalent to buying culture, which pretty much defeats the purpose of culture and eliminates one of the biggest benefits to wonders. Third, by forcing you to "sacrifice" a great leader to rush a wonder, it makes wonders more valuable to you, and you aren't as likely to just start rush buying every "leftover" wonder that you hasn't been built yet. You're more likely to build only the wonders that mesh with your current goals and play style instead of just jamming every available wonder you can into a city.

Dan

	10-10-2001 23:16									#25
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I heard that Great Leaders could also raise armies (by creating units) from scratch if they're in your cities.

Is this true?

	10-10-2001 23:22									#26
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quote: Originally posted by Sandman I heard that Great Leaders could also raise armies (by creating units) from scratch if they're in your cities. Is this true?

Yes. If a great leader is in a city, you can create an army with the leader, in which case the leader will disappear and an army will appear in its place. You then "load" units into an army just like a transport unit and voila, instant army.

Dan

	10-10-2001 23:28									#27
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Thanks for the info Dan, looks like we'll be experimenting with the uses/abuses of Great Leaders for a while.

But what about cold hard cash, can we buy culture?

David

	11-10-2001 00:42									#28
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quote: Yes. If a great leader is in a city, you can create an army with the leader, in which case the leader will disappear and an army will appear in its place. You then "load" units into an army just like a transport unit and voila, instant army.

I don't quite understand...

What I was trying to ask is:

Can great leaders be exchanged for normal units INSTEAD of an army?

Will I get a reply I wonder? Round here Dan-posts are like gold dust.

	11-10-2001 00:50									#29
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

As far as I know: There will be a feature called great leaders (there are threads about these, but some info can be found at www.civ3.com ). These leaders can be sacrificed (in another words : killed ) to rush-build things in cities. These leaders are thus lost.

Related question: Am I right? The main purpose of leaders is to create armies?

Building wonders seems to be a very dangerous job, so keep on fighting

	11-10-2001 00:53									#30
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What's the advantage of having an army? I know that it pools the hit points, so does that mean that they're just harder to kill?