12-10-2001 14:13									#1
	Have you noticed this before? Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

First everyone should notice this screenshot is quite old.

Have you noticed how nation borderlines are drawn at sea? Looks like deepness of the sea affects them.

I edited this picture so it's easier to see the borderline and different levels of deepness in water. Everyone can see this light blue level next to the land, but then I draw blue lines to next deeper level and red lines to next deeper after that. The borderline is drawn to these blueline sea squares, but not to the red ones.

Attachment: borders.jpg
This has been downloaded 289 time(s).

	12-10-2001 14:18									#2
	Support Apolyton

Ok, I just noticed the borderline is actually drawn at next deeper level after those with blue lines at the bottom left corner near the city. But look at bottom right part, doesn't it look rather odd borderline if you look where the city is? The border just follows those light blue squares.



Maybe we shouldn't analyze this old screens, just look at the very bottom of the screen. What is that crap?

	12-10-2001 15:00									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Ok, here's another pic. Those borderlines just doesn't make any sense.

Last edited by Wexu on 12-10-2001 at 16:12

	12-10-2001 15:14									#4
	Inflate your Upload Space

I wouldn't be in the slightest surprised if you controlled all of your coastal waters. I presume the rest would just become international waters which are free for movement for anyone.

	12-10-2001 15:24									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

But look at the second pic, it's very weird and in all the other screenshots, which I've been now looking, there's just normal straight borderlines, just like in land squares.

	12-10-2001 15:29									#6
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The second one looks consistent to me. You control all the light and medium blue zones out as far as your culture border would normally extend. Some cities just have stronger culture so push the border out further.

	12-10-2001 15:31									#7
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Grumbold The second one looks consistent to me. You control all the light and medium blue zones out as far as your culture border would normally extend. Some cities just have stronger culture so push the border out further.

It seems there's 4 levels of water. If you look top of the pic, you can see it controls one level 3 (4 is the deepest) sea square, but not at the left. That left part looks odd to me.

	12-10-2001 15:33									#8
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Yes, that was mentioned in this thread:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...3098#post473098

My speculation is that your borders extending into the ocean take into account culture and ocean depth.

	12-10-2001 15:33									#9
	Tired of ads?

Yep, I agree with Grumbold, this certainly looks to be the case. It makes sense as well...I presume that entering coastal waters with a unit would be considered a violation of a peace treaty as well, which has been a very grey area in SMAC...

	12-10-2001 15:40									#10
	Full PM-box? Change here!

On second look there is one square of medium/dark blue near the top city that falls in the border too. Perhaps they have different costs depending on depth. Only a strong cultural city is going to 'own' any nearby deep water.

	12-10-2001 15:45									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

actually, that is kinda nice. i like irregularly shaped borders

	12-10-2001 15:45									#12
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The 3 types are coastal, sea and ocean, they can effect where your boats can/should sail

	12-10-2001 15:48									#13
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

So what is the fourth? The Deeps?

	12-10-2001 15:54									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

As long as there are no ocean-cities, I have no objection against these concepts.

	12-10-2001 16:15									#15
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

Attachment: borders3.jpg
This has been downloaded 240 time(s).

	12-10-2001 16:19									#16
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by Wexu I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

Have you thought about other Civs exerting their influence? Their borders might push your back a bit, even if they do not touch. A similar thing happened in SMAC.

	12-10-2001 16:27									#17
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Grim Legacy Have you thought about other Civs exerting their influence? Their borders might push your back a bit, even if they do not touch. A similar thing happened in SMAC.

If you look that little map at bottom left corner of the pic you can see that other Civs shouldn't affect too much about these borderlines.

	12-10-2001 16:56									#18
	Increase the size of your Attachments

The "x" in the upper right corner of your screenshot is what convinces me (with 90% certainty...) that there is a relationship between culture and depth that determines how far out the border goes.

Besides borders and ship movement, I'm wondering what other effects the ocean depth will have. I know in SMAC the food/production/trade values were different for different depths of ocean squares. Think we'll see the same in Civ3?

	12-10-2001 17:09									#19
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Stuie The "x" in the upper right corner of your screenshot is what convinces me (with 90% certainty...) that there is a relationship between culture and depth that determines how far out the border goes. Besides borders and ship movement, I'm wondering what other effects the ocean depth will have. I know in SMAC the food/production/trade values were different for different depths of ocean squares. Think we'll see the same in Civ3?

As long as other Civ's respect borders over ocean squares (unlike SMAC) I'll be happy.

As the engine in Civ3 is the same as used in SMAC it wouldn't be unrealistic to have different ocean depths have different attributes, although the best engine I have seen (graphically and game-play wise) for handling ocean depths was in the CtP series. Say what you want bad about the series, how they handled the ocean aspect of the game was pretty good, IMHO.

	12-10-2001 18:41									#20
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

:sigh: , lol, that 'fourth' is the fog, the bit you can't see, it's actually just the ocean. So there's no fourth

	12-10-2001 18:53									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by Wexu If you look that little map at bottom left corner of the pic you can see that other Civs shouldn't affect too much about these borderlines.

Oh yes indeed. Hm well then I have no explanation except that these borders may be generated by a flawed algorithm in a pre-beta version of the game.

	12-10-2001 18:59									#22
	Suffering from ads?

quote: By wexu: I marked the strange squares with red X and numbered those different sea levels.

In that picture the square with the red x on upper right is inside the city production radius (I mean it seems so), so it naturally belongs inside the nation's borders. And for the same reason the square "of same sea-level" with the red x on the left side doesn't belong inside the borders.

Or... is it possible that the culture rating (which expands the borders) can expand borders also downwards (at sea, of course)

	12-10-2001 23:10									#23
	Support Apolyton

I wonder if mountains are treated a smilar fashon?

	12-10-2001 23:53									#24
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Harbours, ports and coastal fortresses may play a role in the depth to which your culture can spread.

A city without any marine improvements will only be able to claim the coastal waters, harbour enables sea claiming, and ports enable ocean claiming.

This is all rather cool, as you could possibly claim an important channel and keep your enemies from sending ships along it.

Additionally coastal forts now play a more active role, so they might have a ZOC.

	13-10-2001 00:39									#25
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Sandman Harbours, ports and coastal fortresses may play a role in the depth to which your culture can spread. A city without any marine improvements will only be able to claim the coastal waters, harbour enables sea claiming, and ports enable ocean claiming. This is all rather cool, as you could possibly claim an important channel and keep your enemies from sending ships along it. Additionally coastal forts now play a more active role, so they might have a ZOC.

Very smart post!

	13-10-2001 01:26									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I don't know if it was mentioned, but you can also see the effect of water depth on borders in the (very old) screenshot which says "American Despotism". Sorry, I don't have a link to it. My guess is that upon reaching a certain naval technology or culture level, deep water borders occur.