13-10-2001 19:17									#31
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

If Firaxis learn from this and instead give us information that affects us as their fans (like MP not being in), then i will be happy. Rather than torturing their fans for weeks, and then dropping the bad new on us, they could have handled this issue much better by letting us know as soon as they discovered MP couldnt be completed in time / or their marketing department decided to charge us for MP seperately.

Its not the whole Firaxis PR that i have a problem with - Dan has done an excellent job here and on the Civ 3 site, giving us information and stopping the rumours he was allowed to stop. to Dan.

The simplistic views that
"Firaxis are great, they can do no wrong" or
"Firaxis suck, they can do nothing right" are both useless in helping us achieve our common goal: to make Civ 3 the best game we can. Only by posting constructive criticism can Firaxis mend the things they havent done well and learn what we feel they have done well.

	13-10-2001 19:21									#32
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i think, as shown by the mp poll, that instead of being a large number of people a tad bit angry about mp, there is a much smaller number that SEEM absolutly enraged on the subject...

sorry if someone has made this point before...

	13-10-2001 19:22									#33
	Increase Your PM Length

Nice piece, Orange.

But you forgot to complain that the name of the game isn't "Yin26's Civilization 3".

	13-10-2001 19:35									#34
	Tired of ads?

Never said it was. But troll on if it sports you some wood.

	13-10-2001 20:20									#35
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Unreal. This column has turned into the biggest flame war since Yin's last inflammatory thread!

Nice to see you writing a column, orange. I remember you on these forums as orangesfwr, and had some REALLY good ideas on civ3.

But I have to disagree with you on soe points.

Owe us? technically, they don't owe us anything. they can make a game, or not. They can tell us about it, or not. They can tell us lies, or not. They really don't owe us anything. But on THE SAME TOKEN, we have the right to b**ch. They have the right to screw the game over, and we have the right to complain about it. They have the right to tell us nothing about it, and we have the right to clamor for more, ever more, info. They can send it out incomplete, and we can refuse to buy it and urge all our friends to do likewise.

To give them the rights and deny ours is absurd.

Next...

To defame a man, a myth, a company, a legend. Truth is, Civ3 is not yet a legend. Civ and Civ2 are, which is why we are so concerned about the ruining of the sequel. of course we don't own the game, so we don't have any real control over how it's made. we just love the previous versions so much it would break our hearts to see it ruined.

as for the man and the company, maybe you're right. after all, they produced Alpha Centauri, an endlessly fascinating game which was well balanced, came with a fine demo, and had multiplayer working out of the box. Truly, as you say, would should quit our complaining and accept that of course they will do the same with Civ3. Same company, same results. Just trust in big brother sid

	13-10-2001 20:22									#36
	You people are missing the point... Put an end to popups!

Criticism is OK. I do it myself! But I'd like to believe I do it in a tasteful, constructive way

What's I've seen from the majority of you is lack of respect, Firaxis bashing, jumping to conclusions, it's sick! If there was a Civ 4 or other Firaxis game, I wouldn't blame them if they found a new site, with respectful posters, to give information to.

The ones that are constantly bashing Firaxis and Sid, you're all giving Apolyton a bad name

	13-10-2001 20:24									#37
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I totally agree with the article.

	13-10-2001 20:26									#38
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast Unreal. This column has turned into the biggest flame war since Yin's last inflammatory thread! Nice to see you writing a column, orange. I remember you on these forums as orangesfwr, and had some REALLY good ideas on civ3. But I have to disagree with you on soe points.

Thanks

quote: Owe us? technically, they don't owe us anything. they can make a game, or not. They can tell us about it, or not. They can tell us lies, or not. They really don't owe us anything. But on THE SAME TOKEN, we have the right to b**ch. They have the right to screw the game over, and we have the right to complain about it. They have the right to tell us nothing about it, and we have the right to clamor for more, ever more, info. They can send it out incomplete, and we can refuse to buy it and urge all our friends to do likewise. To give them the rights and deny ours is absurd.

Yup, but notice Firaxis has been respectful to us. We can criticize all we want. Why not do it tastefully and respectfully.

quote: To defame a man, a myth, a company, a legend. Truth is, Civ3 is not yet a legend. Civ and Civ2 are, which is why we are so concerned about the ruining of the sequel. of course we don't own the game, so we don't have any real control over how it's made. we just love the previous versions so much it would break our hearts to see it ruined.

I mean the Civ series and the people behind it. If it wasn't legendary, there wouldn't be 10,000 apolyton posters.

quote: as for the man and the company, maybe you're right. after all, they produced Alpha Centauri, an endlessly fascinating game which was well balanced, came with a fine demo, and had multiplayer working out of the box. Truly, as you say, would should quit our complaining and accept that of course they will do the same with Civ3. Same company, same results. Just trust in big brother sid

A better title would have been "Have a little respect". That was my main point, though I do feel that if we give ideas and constructively criticize the way we have done in the past, everything WILL turn out ok

	13-10-2001 20:47									#39
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: What's I've seen from the majority of you is lack of respect, Firaxis bashing, jumping to conclusions, it's sick!

"Lack of respect."

Well, for the PR. Yes. I will show it no respect, nor should I.

"Firaxis bashing."

Well, for the PR. Yes. I will continue to bash it when it fails horribly.

"Jumping to conclusions."

Well...thanks to the PR.

"It's sick!"

Actually, how did it get this way? You claim to remember how this board 'used to be.' Any clues why it changed lately?

	13-10-2001 21:14									#40
	Got spare money?

Woah! This has touched a few nerves.

Not too much to add, except to praise Orange on a passionate, well argued column. Oh and a question: Are there any games companies that are as responsive as Firaxis? Sure there are some points that needed better explanation like MP, but I can't think of a better one. A well done to all!

	13-10-2001 21:36									#41
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by yin26 [quote]Well, for the PR. Yes. I will show it no respect, nor should I.

Aren't we high and mighty

quote: Well, for the PR. Yes. I will continue to bash it when it fails horribly.

and you are the judge and jury of whether Firaxis is doing a good job or not? I for one am impressed with the information they've given us and the website.

quote: Well...thanks to the PR.

No, thanks to the lack of PR. And that's no excuse. Assumptions are wrong. Back them up with proof, and they're no longer assumptions.

quote: Actually, how did it get this way? You claim to remember how this board 'used to be.' Any clues why it changed lately?

People who have no respect...

...like you!

	13-10-2001 21:46									#42
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

QUOTE]You paid for 4 previous products, and 4 products you have recieved. [/QUOTE]

What I meant was companies owe their customers if they want them to continue to be their customers. That's basic marketing 101. Of course Firaxis doesn't owe me anything personnally but if they expect me to be their customer then they do owe it to me, other customers and themselves to have an effective marketing campaign and a good game. The first has been called into question and the second we have to wait and see.

It has been my experience when very little or pathetic stuff comes out pregame the game sucks, otherwise why would Firaxis put out their worst stuff to entice us?

SID: New tact, take all the stuff we hate about the game and give it to the customers, that'll really make them salivate!

	13-10-2001 21:51									#43
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by eohian What I meant was companies owe their customers if they want them to continue to be their customers. That's basic marketing 101. Of course Firaxis doesn't owe me anything personnally but if they expect me to be their customer then they do owe it to me, other customers and themselves to have an effective marketing campaign and a good game. The first has been called into question and the second we have to wait and see.

So use the power of the dollar and don't buy the game. It's that simple.

quote: It has been my experience when very little or pathetic stuff comes out pregame the game sucks, otherwise why would Firaxis put out their worst stuff to entice us?

Assumptions, and nothing more.

quote: SID: New tact, take all the stuff we hate about the game and give it to the customers, that'll really make them salivate!

if all's we've seen so far is the bad stuff, then the good stuff is damn likely to make me ***

	13-10-2001 22:45									#44
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the article is spot on !

	13-10-2001 22:50									#45
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Orange, this is by far the worst column I have ever read. How old is it to mock people who are just expressing their point of view? I am so sick of the numerous posts saying "stop arguing" and "how dare you be so pessimistic." Just when I thought people were getting the message that it doesn't matter what people like you think, here comes this column that is more full of uppity complaining than most of the "anti-civ" posts that I have seen. People can complain whenever they want to, and you are just a hypocritical whiner if you flame them just because they have a complaint. Your column is a ****ing joke, and serves no purpose other than to start this flaming war that was probably the aim of your column anyway. Congrats, orange, you've lost all of my respect. Go b*tch somewhere else.

	13-10-2001 23:02									#46
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

It seems that a lot of people (including high-and-almighty Yin) may not have read the FAQ answer closely. Here are a couple of points:

quote: However, we're working on some cool multiplayer concepts that will take a fresh approach to the challenge of making multiplayer for a turn-based game fun.

They're working on new concepts, possibly ideas from their fans?

quote: Once we have more details to report, they'll be posted on this FAQ.

The reason why they don't give any details is because they can't give any details because they're not completely sure themselves!

Note that this is a promise to release information when available. Also note the "once we have more details to report" clause, which indicates that they don't have all of the details yet.

The Apolyton board may itself be to blame . . . you guys came up with good ideas, and now the programmers at Firaxis may be working on implementation. You're complaining about something you may well have started .

	13-10-2001 23:15									#47
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Orange, this is by far the worst column I have ever read.

quote: How old is it to mock people who are just expressing their point of view?

Nope. No mocking. Just anger that people are defaming Apolyton by being rude, arrogant, smug little *******s.

quote: I am so sick of the numerous posts saying "stop arguing" and "how dare you be so pessimistic."

Me too, too bad we have to have those types of threads...eh?

quote: Just when I thought people were getting the message that it doesn't matter what people like you think, here comes this column that is more full of uppity complaining than most of the "anti-civ" posts that I have seen.

Just when I thought people were getting the message that it doesn't matter what people like you think, here comes this post which is more full of whiney *****ing than anything Yin has posted. Whine all you want, I'm entitled to my opinion, and I'll speak it if I want to. Why not write a column yourself

quote: People can complain whenever they want to, and you are just a hypocritical whiner if you flame them just because they have a complaint.

Sure can. I've got no problem with complaints. Hell, I do it myself. I'm upset about Iroquois being in over Spanish, as numerous threads have shown. I was upset when someone said "only 8 civs in the game" and I complained when the biggest map size was not much bigger than the Civ II maps. But again I'd like to think I did it tastefully. And if I didn't do it with respect, I apologize to Firaxis for pretending to know something I have no knowledge of.

quote: Your column is a ****ing joke

No. This guy walks into a bar and says "ouch". That's a joke.

quote: and serves no purpose other than to start this flaming war that was probably the aim of your column anyway.

Nah, actually I just started writing, realized that people submit stuff like this all the time, and sent it to Markos. In all actuality, I didn't think there'd be a thread on it, or if it would even be posted.

quote: Congrats, orange, you've lost all of my respect.

no loss, I'm sure.

quote: Go b*tch somewhere else.

no thanks. I like it just fine right here

	13-10-2001 23:23									#48
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Orange, I don't write a column because I'm not in any particular hurry to make a fool out of myself. I am just telling you what I think of your column and your complaining; it is a post adressed only to you. You don't need my permission to post what ever the heck you want - I'm just informing you that IMO you're just a complaining *****. And that's my take, like it or not.

Have a nice day.

	13-10-2001 23:26									#49
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Oh, gimme a break! "pr!ck" shouldn't be censored. I'ts a legitimate verb AND a legitimate noun!

	13-10-2001 23:27									#50
	and I have given you mine... Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: I'm just informing you that IMO you're just a complaining *****.

according to a recent poll, more than 3/4s of the people on this board feel that all the *****ing and moaning about Civ III isn't even legit. It's all about finding something to hate.

And from the results of this thread and some PMs, E-mails, AIMs, and ICQs I've recieved, you're opinion is in the clear cut minority.

quote: Have a nice day.

Likewise

	13-10-2001 23:36									#51
	Put an end to popups!

Well then, I assert that 3/4 of the people in this forum are also IMO complaining pr!cks. That doesn't make you any more right.

Minority or not, the fact is that your column and subsequent columns won't effect any kind of change. If the people that complain are voicing legit complaints, they won't take anything you've said with a grain of salt. And if they really are all just haters, then they will continue to hate despite whatever you say. So all 3/4 of Apolyton can continue to decieve themselves if they like, that's their own problem. Really, it's all much ado about nothing.

And I stick to my opinion: Worst Column Ever.

Not that anything I could write would be better...

	13-10-2001 23:42									#52
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Well then, I assert that 3/4 of the people in this forum are also IMO complaining pr!cks. That doesn't make you any more right.

You're going to fit in here juuuuuuusssssst fine

quote: Minority or not, the fact is that your column and subsequent columns won't effect any kind of change.

Fact eh? Can you prove it?

quote: If the people that complain are voicing legit complaints, they won't take anything you've said with a grain of salt.

(I assume you mean they will take it with a grain of salt.)

voicing legitimate complaints does not = whining and moaning and making rude statements.

quote: And if they really are all just haters, then they will continue to hate despite whatever you say.

This I'll agree with.

quote: So all 3/4 of Apolyton can continue to decieve themselves if they like, that's their own problem. Really, it's all much ado about nothing.

So why do you bother posting?

quote: And I stick to my opinion: Worst Column Ever.

Think whatever you want. I really don't care what you think.

quote: Not that anything I could write would be better...

at least you have a sense of humour

	13-10-2001 23:47									#53
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by CobraA1 It seems that a lot of people (including high-and-almighty Yin) may not have read the FAQ answer closely. The reason why they don't give any details is because they can't give any details because they're not completely sure themselves! Note that this is a promise to release information when available. Also note the "once we have more details to report" clause, which indicates that they don't have all of the details yet.

Firaxis could end most of the flame war by making a simple commitment to make MP a free download.The FAQ's blatant side stepping of the issues isn't a good thing. Dan has done a fantastic job keeping us interested and excited with what little he has at his disposal, but this is a PR fiasco for the company because they are too concerned to maintain the illusion of mystery. We're reasonable people, but it is our hard earned cash they want which could go to any number of game publishers this holiday.

	13-10-2001 23:55									#54
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Well then, I assert that 3/4 of the people in this forum are also IMO complaining pr!cks.

When in doubt flame everyone ehh? Nice thing to do when you dont know their resons for it.

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 So all 3/4 of Apolyton can continue to decieve themselves if they like, that's their own problem. Really, it's all much ado about nothing.

It must be nice to be one of the chosen few who are right ehh?

Its one thing for people to complain if they have a legit reason. It a whole other thing to turn it into a jihad because of personal reasons. If someone has doubts about the game then DO NOT BUY IT. Wait till you know enough for you to buy it. But running around screaming out how bad the game is going to be is pure stupidity when no one has even played it yet. Griping about Firaxis not having MP in the game without knowing why they didnt have it in there is useless. Its not there, get over it, move on. True it looks like Firaxis mishandled the whole thing but then again without knowing what was going on behind the closed doors you'd know as much if you'd read tea leafs.

	14-10-2001 00:00									#55
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by orange You're going to fit in here juuuuuuusssssst fine

Don't I know it! I spend more time arguing on this site than arguing elsewhere...

quote: Fact eh? Can you prove it?

Wait and see. Nothing will change.

quote: (I assume you mean they will take it with a grain of salt.)

No, I don't mean that. Listen Orange, it's pretty simple. Observe:

People with legitimate complaints: These people will observe that your column is just out to flame them and will ignore it, continuing to post legitimate complaints.

People who just want to hate: These people are convinced that they really do have a legitimate complaint, so they will behave as people with legitimate complaints.

quote: So why do you bother posting?

Good question.

quote: Think whatever you want. I really don't care what you think.

That's too bad. It's hard to have a good argument when you aren't in the lest bit receptive to the ideas of others. Oh well...

quote: at least you have a sense of humour

Nice of you to recognize that.

	14-10-2001 00:05									#56
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Wait and see. Nothing will change.

It already has. I've caused people to think. That's the best I could hope for.

quote: People with legitimate complaints: These people will observe that your column is just out to flame them and will ignore it, continuing to post legitimate complaints.

Hopefully they'd know that I am 'flaming' the people who go about complaining in the wrong way. The overall rudeness lately paints a horrible picture of the Apolyton public.

quote: That's too bad. It's hard to have a good argument when you aren't in the lest bit receptive to the ideas of others. Oh well...

Hardly. You know as well as I do that what I said was in response to you saying "Worst Article Ever"

	14-10-2001 00:06									#57
	Remove this text

Shiva, put a sock in it. Observe that that comment was based on orange's comments on the poll.

Oh yes, it is delightful to be one of the chosen few who is right. You should try it sometime...

	14-10-2001 00:09									#58
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by cyclotron7 Shiva, put a sock in it. Observe that that comment was based on orange's comments on the poll.

And that makes the polls any less valid? And makes calling them a name right ehh?

	14-10-2001 00:12									#59
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Hopefully they'd know that I am 'flaming' the people who go about complaining in the wrong way. The overall rudeness lately paints a horrible picture of the Apolyton public.

That's just the point. People who are just haters THINK they are really people with valid complaints, so they say to themselves "either orange is just a complainer, or he isn't adressing his complaint to me" and they keep on posting.

I couldn't care less about how the Apolyton public is portrayed. Are you really doing this because you are concerned that the "image" of this particular Civ3 forum is at stake? That seems like an awfully trivial reason to do anything...

	14-10-2001 00:19									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Shiva And that makes the polls any less valid? And makes calling them a name right ehh?

The polls aren't invalid; the people's opinions are.

Actually, I'll call them whatever I want. People who think that everyone who complains here is a hater really are ignorant ******. And that is right.