15-10-2001 02:18									#31
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Funny map though

	15-10-2001 02:28									#32
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I made this point about ctp1 and 2 and got flamed so much I got 3rd degree burns.

Civ2 was too euro-centric - Britain had waaaaaaaay too many wonders.

	15-10-2001 02:42									#33
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That map about the USA's view of the world was hilarious and sadly it is true for a lot of people. I am an american and I guess it should offend me but I understand and in some cases I agree with it. Although it does seem a lot of people dislike the USA just becuase there the most powerful country in the world. If it were up to me there wouldnt even be countries because all they do is start conflicts, there should just be one. The Civ series bases there monuments and wonders on the nest of a certain type of thing.Many happene to be from America. But only in the modern age and industrial. Nothing can be from america before that because it didnt exist, its just that the dominating country of the owrld tends to have the most wonders of the age, the USA dominated the end of the industrial age and the modern age so they get the most wonders, its that simple.

	15-10-2001 03:10									#34
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin Put it this way... I once told an American lady that I was from Canada, and she replied: "Is that in the Caribbean?"

Yes this is quite sad......I do think that generally Americans could be a little more informed about the world outside of the US. I mean they've got bases all over the world you'd think they would know more.....
I wonder if she even knows where the capitol of her own country is???

That being said, although they may have stupid governmental and military leaders/policies (many do!), I generally find Americans likable and well meaning.

	15-10-2001 03:44									#35
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Simpleton: What I've seen of you tells me that you're well-meaning and even likeable (), but I can't believe this statement:

quote: Yes this is quite sad......I do think that generally Americans could be a little more informed about the world outside of the US.

There is no 'generally.' Each American is different. Some are ignorant, yes, but many, many more are quite knowledgable. This is a classic example of how a few bad apples spoiled the entire batch. I would have hoped that the people here at Poly would be a little smarter than that.

	15-10-2001 04:13									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th Simpleton: What I've seen of you tells me that you're well-meaning and even likeable (), but I can't believe this statement: There is no 'generally.' Each American is different. Some are ignorant, yes, but many, many more are quite knowledgable. This is a classic example of how a few bad apples spoiled the entire batch. I would have hoped that the people here at Poly would be a little smarter than that.

Yes, I apoligize. My poor choice of words. What I wanted to say is what you said. I got called away while writing this post several times and obviously lost my train of thought. I think I edited my post 4 times trying to get it right but obviously never did.
Thanks for making my point for me.
Although I stand by my point about "political and military leaders".

	15-10-2001 04:16									#37
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quote: Originally posted by tuckson The problem usually is that the US often underestimates anything outside their borders. Besides that, Most Americans are pretty sure The US of A are the best country in the World. Of course other countries have sort a like ideas, only they usually don't try to be the world's police officer. America seems to think the World NEEDS America. Well... it can be used, but the world can survive without the USA I guess.

There are quite a few Americans who would love to disengage from the rest of the world, such as removing our troops (Balkans, Israel-Egypt, et al.) and whatnot. Unfortunately we cannot. If we retreat into isolationism, then we would be burned at the stake for *NOT* using our power to make the world a better place. As it stands now, we use that power and we still get spat on because we don't use it in a "proper" manner.

It would be interesting if we chose to only *trade* with the rest of the planet, but not get involved with any other aspect of internationalism. Then we would probably be accused of being vultures. Or worse, Ferengi.

quote: It's not we (non-americans) don't like the USA. Not at all, usually they have our sympathy. But if we look at the circus you make of the democratic principle of election, how can you expect to be taken seriously?

I'm willing to bet your own leaders have their own bread and circuses, too. But for some reason, it doesn't make me think less of an entire nation because of it. If that were the case, you'd see me slamming Germany for Helmut Kohl's transgressions. France ... don't even get me started on France.

Perhaps there is one constant across all cultures and all nations: Individuals can be smart, generous and wise. They can also be idiotic, tight-fisted and not-so-wise.

CYBERAmazon

	15-10-2001 05:07									#38
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It was written by US developers. Just be glad we decided to export it's greatness to you at all

	15-10-2001 05:17									#39
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Heh, I guess they're pretty glad too, taking in our foreign bucks...

	15-10-2001 05:20									#40
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I finally am able to finish the thoughts I wanted to earlier.
Given the fact that Americans have ample access to TV, Radio, etc. I believe that, on average Americans are less informed about the rest of the world than they ought to be.
That being said, although Canadians have the same access to these media resources they too are less informed than they should be. However, I do believe that Canadians on average are more well informed about the rest of the world than Americans.

	15-10-2001 06:27									#41
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quote: Originally posted by tuckson The problem usually is that the US often underestimates anything outside their borders. Besides that, Most Americans are pretty sure The US of A are the best country in the World. Of course other countries have sort a like ideas, only they usually don't try to be the world's police officer. America seems to think the World NEEDS America. Well... it can be used, but the world can survive without the USA I guess.

First, the USA IS the best country in the world! That's why most of the world's immigrants come here.

Second, the world DOES need America! We tried to stay out of World War One, but had to come and save Europe from destroying itself. Then we tried to stay out of World War Two, but once again were forced out of our isolation to come save everyone from the warmongering Germans and Japanese. Then the British and French BEGGED us to keep troops in Europe and send some to the mid-east to counter the Soviet threat. Then we had to prop up the dying European economies with the Marshall plan.

Third, the US is now the world's police officer because the world NEEDS a police officer! After the experience of repeatedly going from war to isolationism, we were finally forced to stay out by the length of the Cold War. And we are merely replacing the British in their role of the "Balancer" in world affairs. With so many fires constantly igniting in the world that threaten to become greater conflagrations, the world needs someone to come along and put out the fire.

It would be nice to see some international body, like the UN, be given the authority to be the world's policeman, but so far that hasn't panned out. So the top dog is forced into the role. Who else is gonna do it? The Netherlands!?

Be thankful it was the Soviets that collapsed and not the US. Can you imagine the Soviets as world policeman? At least the US attempts not to harm civilians (depite the fact that we recently lost 6000 of them). A Soviet war machine might not be so polite.

	15-10-2001 06:27									#42
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We're all guilty. The average hayseed Canadian is no better informed than the average hayseed American. The world is much the same wherever you go. A lot of people throughout the world just don't give thought to matters outside their own immediate concerns.

It's no different in America than anywhere else. Whereas America I'm sure has some of the most uninformed people on earth, we also have some of the most informed people on earth - it all balances out in the end.

	15-10-2001 08:26									#43
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius First, the USA IS the best country in the world! That's why most of the world's immigrants come here. Second, the world DOES need America! Then the British and French BEGGED us to keep troops in Europe and send some to the mid-east to counter the Soviet threat. Then we had to prop up the dying European economies with the Marshall plan. Third, the US is now the world's police officer because the world NEEDS a police officer! .

Oh man!! I was going to drop this and not post in this thread anymore but after this one I couldn't stop.

Your arrogant comments are one of the reasons Americans are disliked throughout the world? If you go pushing that pompus attitude in people's faces of course they're going to react with contempt!
Yes, America has done a lot of good things but maybe watch the news a little more often (non-American) and you might notice that other countries make really great contributions around the world too!!

Hey? One question. If Americans are so proud of their country why is it that they wear Canadian pins and shirts when they vacation abroad?????
When someone posts crap like this it's so hard to like Americans!

	15-10-2001 08:34									#44
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius It would be nice to see some international body, like the UN, be given the authority to be the world's policeman, but so far that hasn't panned out.

God forbid that ever happens. The UN has been a useless body for many many years. Nice to run up the political score there on someone by having them condemmed but for the most part useless. Nato is far more useful.

	15-10-2001 13:42									#45
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quote: Originally posted by Simpleton Your arrogant comments are one of the reasons Americans are disliked throughout the world? If you go pushing that pompus attitude in people's faces of course they're going to react with contempt!

You're very good at name-calling, but lousy at refuting my assertions. Name one thing I said that isn't true.

	15-10-2001 14:30									#46
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PLEASE!!!

Everybody chill out.
No "God bless America" or "yankee go home" parties - yes, an extreme designation, but I trust you all undestand what I mean.
I would appreciate opinions on the national names on the game, and I really ask you to avoid any partisanry - even if it is wickedly temping.
Please.

I did not want to start this thread to ignite atlantic catfights or hystory analysis, and surely not to spoil people's fun with something unrelated to the game we will soon buy, I think.
I apologise.

The point is:
could there have been some more "global" designation of some MINOR wonders?
I think that MAJOR wonders should stay "national" because they are the creation of a particular nation (in History) or civ (in CivIII),
but MINOR wonders are something that everybody can build, and so they should bear a more "general" name in my opinion.

Thank you for your attention.

	15-10-2001 14:56									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th There is no 'generally.' Each American is different. Some are ignorant, yes, but many, many more are quite knowledgable. This is a classic example of how a few bad apples spoiled the entire batch. I would have hoped that the people here at Poly would be a little smarter than that.

Hey, I guess it shouldn't bother you Yanks so much. In the whole world, usually Americans are recognised so, even without having spoken a single word. But this goes for more nations. Over here in Holland we are half the year flushed with Germans having their holiday on our beaches. Most of them are nice folks, and it's usually not fair to remind them of the (2nd world) war or anyting else of a past generation. However, this does not take away the fact that they often are recognised by native dutchmen as being german, also without even having spoken a word. I guess it's something cultural that's visible in the way people behave/act.

And AFAIK, in the countries where Ducth youngster spend their holidays, they don't have that good a name either. Look around for the most drunk, most misbehaving teenagers. Big chance they're dutch.

So don't bother too much with it (is this correct english?).

	15-10-2001 15:30									#48
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English holidaymakers and football fans have a similar reputation based on the actions of a minority.

If you have to allot blame, then the media has to accept its fair share. Filming trouble then getting some xenophobic bigot or radical extremist to spout off their views makes for better ratings than devoting airtime to the calm voice of reason. Consequently outbreaks of foot and mouth in Northumberland has Americans cancelling their trips to London because all they see is image after image of burning cows. A train crashes and people switch to driving their car even though statistically they are still much safer using any other form of transport. A few people get infected with Anthrax that can only be caught on contact and gas masks sell out overnight. The list is endless.

	15-10-2001 15:40									#49
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quote: On Wall Street in particular: "the City" in London is the oldest, most historic national stock exchange on the planet.

Actually, the oldest stock exchange in the world is the Amsterdam Stock Exchange.

	15-10-2001 15:40									#50
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Most people have a stereotypical image about Americans, for example:

American: Where are you from?
Dutchie: From Holland.
American: Oh, nice town, Copenhagen!

But of course you can complain about virtually any nation. Some youngsters setting your hotel on fire? Good chance they're Dutch (or English). Some guy on the beach digging trenches? Probably a German. (D-Day syndrome ).

quote: It would be nice to see some international body, like the UN, be given the authority to be the world's policeman, but so far that hasn't panned out. So the top dog is forced into the role. Who else is gonna do it? The Netherlands!?

Well, at least we have the attitude required, Dutchies are always eager to point out other nations faults, that's why we are so annoying!

	15-10-2001 15:56									#51
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quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon It would be interesting if we chose to only *trade* with the rest of the planet, but not get involved with any other aspect of internationalism. Then we would probably be accused of being vultures. Or worse, Ferengi.

I think in this case, The US are prisoner of their own foreign politics from the post WW2 decades. Indeed it's not possible for them right now to retreat and let it all go. They're too deep into it.
And I do think it's a good thing one helps someone else when it can be done. However it's a bit silly to think the us do things for the sake of the world. All the world knows that the primary concerns of the US foreign politics are the US own needs.
Examples? The US only got into WW2 AFTER Pearl Harbor. The Gulf War only was there because of the US oil needs.

But as soon as interests of US and "the world" become different, The US choose NOT to stay close to the world, but go their own way. Today's example of this? The Rocket shield project.

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon I'm willing to bet your own leaders have their own bread and circuses, too. But for some reason, it doesn't make me think less of an entire nation because of it. If that were the case, you'd see me slamming Germany for Helmut Kohl's transgressions. France ... don't even get me started on France.

You bet. Of course we also have some sort of circus. However, Our elections and party programs usually are aimed on capabilities and plans, and not on the person of a political leader him (or her)self. It's a typical American thing to, as soon as a president is installed, dig up his entire personal life and history to find even the tiniest mistake in order to break his career. Things like the Monica Lewinsky story would not happen here because it's a leader's private life. The important thing is how he/she is running the country. That's the reason someone is (re)elected. Not because he could find the most dirty facts about his opponents or because he came up with the longest nicknames for them.

quote: Originally posted by CYBERAmazon Perhaps there is one constant across all cultures and all nations: Individuals can be smart, generous and wise. They can also be idiotic, tight-fisted and not-so-wise.

I'll go for that.

	15-10-2001 16:12									#52
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius First, the USA IS the best country in the world! That's why most of the world's immigrants come here.

See what we mean?

quote: Originally posted by Falconius Second, the world DOES need America! We tried to stay out of World War One, but had to come and save Europe from destroying itself. Then we tried to stay out of World War Two, but once again were forced out of our isolation to come save everyone from the warmongering Germans and Japanese. Then the British and French BEGGED us to keep troops in Europe and send some to the mid-east to counter the Soviet threat. Then we had to prop up the dying European economies with the Marshall plan.

Oh, come on and give us a break. The only reason you got involved in WW2 is because of Pearl Harbor. And it took you quite some time to retalliate because you were totally unprepared for an attack. The Japanese attacks were a total surprise. And the begging? No need for begging because the US did not want the Soviets to get too much influence in the world. I don't say your help wasn't quite welcome, but don't make it more than it was.

quote: Originally posted by Falconius Third, the US is now the world's police officer because the world NEEDS a police officer! After the experience of repeatedly going from war to isolationism, we were finally forced to stay out by the length of the Cold War. And we are merely replacing the British in their role of the "Balancer" in world affairs. With so many fires constantly igniting in the world that threaten to become greater conflagrations, the world needs someone to come along and put out the fire.

The British never had the role of balancing the world affairs. They also only protected their own empire (which was quite large indeed). And no one blames them for that. No one should blame America for doing so either, but stop whining about how good and charitative you are.

quote: Originally posted by Falconius It would be nice to see some international body, like the UN, be given the authority to be the world's policeman, but so far that hasn't panned out. So the top dog is forced into the role. Who else is gonna do it? The Netherlands!?

Nah, I guess we are not the party that should do these things. I think indeed the UN and NATO are the bodies that should handle these tasks. However, America is an important part of those bodies. So maybe you need to learn a bit humidity and let the major decisions to those bodies instead of trying to use them to your own good (as China and Russia are doing also, not only the US. And I guess that's inheritent to the size and the power of the tree of you. Of course France thinks it's still a Superpower , but that doens't count).

quote: Originally posted by Falconius Be thankful it was the Soviets that collapsed and not the US. Can you imagine the Soviets as world policeman? At least the US attempts not to harm civilians (depite the fact that we recently lost 6000 of them). A Soviet war machine might not be so polite.

I agree on that. No one is waiting for a communist world. And as staed earlier by me and others, Most people (including me) do have a warm heart for the US.

If only they became a bit realistic...

Grtx

	15-10-2001 16:21									#53
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quote: Originally posted by Grumbold If you have to allot blame, then the media has to accept its fair share. Filming trouble then getting some xenophobic bigot or radical extremist to spout off their views makes for better ratings than devoting airtime to the calm voice of reason.

You bet.
Yesterday I read an article about media reportings of the Israel-palestine conflict and the difference it makes when a suicide Hamas guy is called a " Hamas warrior or activist" or a "Hamas terrorist" in an incident report.

Same story. only the way the guy is named sets the attitude.
This says a lot I guess for those kind a things. However, we all can watch CNN. (Not all day of course, seeing the same thing over and over again makes you go crazy).

	15-10-2001 17:15									#54
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quote: Originally posted by Simpleton Given the fact that Americans have ample access to TV, Radio, etc. I believe that, on average Americans are less informed about the rest of the world than they ought to be.

That would be due to 1) the crap that is provided by media organizations on both television and radio and 2) the fact that our news organizations are vying for ratings, not for quality content. In other words, the most exciting news program wins - who cares if it informs.

There are some Americans who seek out information through alternative sources and are better informed and better educated about what is going on in the world. There are also too many Americans that think Uzbekistan is something out of a Dr. Suess book, and I don't just mean the 3-year olds.

	15-10-2001 17:23									#55
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quote: Originally posted by Yoleus I know that this has probably been discussed for long, but... isn't Civ3 a little to US-centric? Wall street The Pentagon Manhattan Project

Llike it or not, these things are all readily recognizable as symbolizing a particular "thing" to people around the world. While you suggest some more generic alternatives, I think they lack the color that is provided by using specific examples.

Further, even some of the specific alternatives suggested by others in this thread would be meaningless to a vast number of gamers in the US. Call it ignorance or self-centered or whatever, but the game needs to be readily accessible to a wide US market in order to be successful.

	15-10-2001 17:24									#56
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quote: Originally posted by Saracen31 We're all guilty. The average hayseed Canadian is no better informed than the average hayseed American. The world is much the same wherever you go. A lot of people throughout the world just don't give thought to matters outside their own immediate concerns.

This is true. Everytime I've been to Europe and I told them that I'm from Canada, they couldn't get it past their skulls that I wasn't an American. I don't think they knew where Canada was or that it was an independant country.

Oh well... it doesn't really matter. Sometimes, it's nice to be unnoticed.

	15-10-2001 17:58									#57
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In first place:

EVERYBODY PLEASE STOP DIGGING CULTURAL TRENCHES!

In second place, Stuie, yours is a good point in theory, but I think that something like:

East Indies Trading Company
Kremlin
Manhattan Project

could have worked, even in US. And at least to me sound more global.
I know, somebody else could -ando should- complain about ny choice.
I just PROPOSE something, and I do not see much counter-proposal...
Anyway, my first choice is to go with non specific names for MINOR wonders.

For MAJOR wonders I have nothing to complain with Hoover Dam or Statue of Liberty. My guess is that they forced US names for the local wonders because they lacked any great wonder for US - Statue of Liberty AFAIK is out and Hoover Dam is not so great.

	15-10-2001 18:02									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Yoleus [...] because they lacked any great wonder for US - Statue of Liberty AFAIK is out and Hoover Dam is not so great.

Sorry, what I really meant is that there are not as many as they pleased (for selling reasons). Nobody doubt at the Apollo Program. And definitely Manhattan Project sounds best.

	15-10-2001 18:09									#59
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin This is true. Everytime I've been to Europe and I told them that I'm from Canada, they couldn't get it past their skulls that I wasn't an American

I think I agree. Anyway, at least in UK they should grasp immediately the difference, I suppose AFAIK, the Canadian Head of State is still formally Her Royal Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, while the executive Premier is J. Chretien.

P.S.: let me know if I am completely out of my trolley

	15-10-2001 18:18									#60
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quote: Originally posted by Yoleus Stuie, yours is a good point in theory, but I think that something like: East Indies Trading Company Kremlin Manhattan Project could have worked, even in US.

Fair enough. I wonder if Firaxis just grabbed the first thing that came to mind for some of the new wonders, and then the names stuck as development progressed. Believe me, I'm not arguing the game should be US-centric (or any-centric, for that matter). I just feel that wonders need to be specific examples of human accomplishment and readily identifiable by most gamers.

Maybe once the game is out we can make some changes........