14-10-2001 21:35									#1
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I know that this has probably been discussed for long, but...
isn't Civ3 a little to US-centric?

Wall street
The Pentagon
Manhattan Project

These are some examples of MINOR wonders (not the major ones, which obviously are peculiar to one civilization in history and so shall be in Civ3) that are, let's say, too "north-american".
On Wall Street in particular: "the City" in London is the oldest, most historic national stock exchange on the planet.
What about:

National S. Exchange
Ministry of Defence
Nuclear Project

There are also other issues of the like, but I am just conderned about these, just because of the fact that they are MINOR (and consequently GENERAL) wonders.
Do anybody share my point of view?

	14-10-2001 21:40									#2
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ask yourself "where is the game gona sell most?" and you've just found the answer to your question...

	14-10-2001 21:43									#3
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quote: Originally posted by splangy ask yourself "where is the game gona sell most?" and you've just found the answer to your question...

Yes, I know, I just think that even a US civ player can have enough taste for historical accuracy to shiver at building the Pentagon in Moscow.

	14-10-2001 21:46									#4
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Everything in the game is editable (is that a word, sounds too much like a can eat it...). If you want to call it the Nuclear Project, go right ahead and call it the Nuclear Project. Another one of the great things about Civ III.

	14-10-2001 21:51									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Lorizael Everything in the game is editable (is that a word, sounds too much like a can eat it...). If you want to call it the Nuclear Project, go right ahead and call it the Nuclear Project. Another one of the great things about Civ III.

Again, I agree and appreciate this. But that' not the point. I do not want to change the game, I just want to know what do you think about it. And by the way, I can't customize (easily) any civilopedia that celebrates me the economic glory of Wall Street

	14-10-2001 22:02									#6
	Tired of ads?

i agree



You should named this wonder as you wish.

	14-10-2001 22:52									#7
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The entire concept of creating shares and trading them originated in Europe, so I can see their point.

By the same token, this is an American company.

	14-10-2001 22:55									#8
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I take the point about renaming but it does seem to be more of the subtle unintentional racism I was mentioning earlier that while they are calling a nations defense centre 'The Pentagon' they have renamed J.S Bach's Catherdral to simple 'Great Cathedral'.

The point about sales is true but it points out the truth in my "subtle unintentional racism" comment yet again......

	14-10-2001 23:06									#10
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Once again an American turns a blind eye to accusations of their rapidly growing nationalism.........

	14-10-2001 23:11									#11
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Put it this way...

I once told an American lady that I was from Canada, and she replied: "Is that in the Caribbean?"

	14-10-2001 23:22									#12
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That.......

Your........

That isn't a Canadian flag is it??????



I was expecting maple leaves.......

	14-10-2001 23:26									#13
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That's the flag for the Ontario province in Canada. I just like the way it looks.

The Canadian flag before 1967 was either the British flag, or a flag that looks very similar to my Avatar. It was called the red standard.

	14-10-2001 23:33									#14
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Yes, it IS "US-centric."
Considering where it is being created from, are there any other 'better' ways to do it? Should 'flavor' be dropped and everything be named generically?
Or how about a splattering of obscure, authentic names from different societies that would have little or no name recognition? Then add an historical encyclopedia to really enrich our lives.

This is a lose-lose argument, because however you do it, it will seem wrong to a lot of people.

Actually, all of the civs should have been given generic names. No historical names at all.

	15-10-2001 00:05									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Jaybe Considering where it is being created from, are there any other 'better' ways to do it?

Nobody said better, I just wondered if it could be more "politically correct" or historically accurate without being obscure, as you say.

quote: Should 'flavor' be dropped and everything be named generically?

Ah, now it is called "flavor"

quote: Or how about a splattering of obscure, authentic names from different societies that would have little or no name recognition? Then add an historical encyclopedia to really enrich our lives.

Well, it seems you are right, since Sid took out the obscure "Bach" designation and went for "Grand Cathedral"
Apart from the jokes, do you really think that "American" is equal to "well known"? This fuel prejudices on US people not knowing much of the "outer space". And I do not mean Europe, but also India, China, etc. (even Canada! I mean, it's big and it's on your heads!)

quote: [...]however you do it, it will seem wrong to a lot of people.

I agree. And the facts too

quote: Actually, all of the civs should have been given generic names. No historical names at all.

Here I do not agree. You can try and look for a better compromise,
don't you? But it seems that nobody tried, instead they cut on what is NOT tipical of US (the aforementioned Bach, for instance, which anyway I think was misused for a cathedral).
Believe me, I am not trying to make the game less American, as you say it is made there and I will probably buy it soon because I like it, I would just like it to be more "global", that's it.
What I wanted in this thread were opinions, and I really appreciate you gave yours.

	15-10-2001 00:15									#16
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Ya... and maybe we should have called the CIVs: California, Texas, New York, Michigan, Nevada, etc.

	15-10-2001 00:19									#17
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I agree, it would have been nice if each civilization had a different name for its "Manhattan Project" and "Pyramids".

After all, wouldn't it be neat if you were other cultures to...

"Pyramids" could be "Kremlin" (Russian)
"Manhattan Project" could be "Delhi Project" (Indian)
"Great Cathedreal" could be "Dome of the Rock" (Arabic)

Would be neat, but given that the game was not given such depth it would be better for it to be consistantly ethno-centric with respect to European/American culture rather than all over the place attempting to borrow aspects from all sorts of different cultures.

It'd be on my wish list for a Patch of CivIII (this could be easily accomplished) or for Civ IV (just have to wait till 2007)

	15-10-2001 00:52									#18
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So much for the view of the World by the average American.
BTW, I got a taste of the Ignorance of american people after the Attack on the 11. October. Hard to belive if you don't see it with your own eyes....

I also would like a more world open Civ 3. If you take a look on History, all culture of america was initially imported from Europe......

	15-10-2001 01:17									#19
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quote: BTW, I got a taste of the Ignorance of american people after the Attack on the 11. October. Hard to belive if you don't see it with your own eyes....

WTF does that mean? Americans are ignorant because of a terrorist attack?

I'm not saying we are necessarily justified in what we're doing in the middle east, but I am tired of the f*cking double standard surrounding the U.S. Any time anything happens, the U.S. is expected to just sit and take it. No more of that. If we are attacked, we will retaliate.

I am sick and tired of the prejudice around the U.S. Yes, SOME Americans are ignorant and stupid, but every country has that. People say bad things about the U.S., but every country has its problems. Just because the U.S. is the only remaining superpower doesn't mean that it's corrupt or deserves what much of the world is throwing at it. We are not completely innocent, no, but we are not the only ones to blame.

	15-10-2001 01:25									#20
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quote: Originally posted by LordGrey ofLeva [IMG] BTW, I got a taste of the Ignorance of american people after the Attack on the 11. October. Hard to belive if you don't see it with your own eyes....

U.S. was attacked on the 11th of Sept. you dumm ass.

	15-10-2001 01:25									#21
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You're talking about the most powerful country in Earth's history. Of course it will be slanted that way. If Rome still ruled the world, it would be a Rome-centric game. Who cares?

	15-10-2001 01:36									#22
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no way is USA the most powerful nation in history, 18the British Empire from 1815-1880 was.


shame they changed Bach's. I like his music, and would have looked forward to a prelude beinmg played when you built it. oh well.

i also agree about the wall street thing, i mean, the first (truely) economic center of the world was 19th Centry london (hence GMT being there etc)

	15-10-2001 01:40									#23
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quote: Originally posted by LordGrey ofLeva So much for the view of the World by the average American. BTW, I got a taste of the Ignorance of american people after the Attack on the 11. October. Hard to belive if you don't see it with your own eyes.... I also would like a more world open Civ 3. If you take a look on History, all culture of america was initially imported from Europe......

A joke or not this actually quite offensive. You are making a stereotype based on a select few. No one says, OH NO THE COMMIES anymore. How is your stereotype any better than a game made in the United States using easily recognizable (at least to Americans) symbols? And somebody already mentioned that the attack happened on SEPTEMBER 11, so I won't say it again.

	15-10-2001 01:42									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th Any time anything happens, the U.S. is expected to just sit and take it. No more of that. If we are attacked, we will retaliate.

Nah... Depends on the motive. Revenge is not a valid motive. Extinction of terroristic threat is.

quote: Originally posted by Sabre2th I am sick and tired of the prejudice around the U.S. Yes, SOME Americans are ignorant and stupid, but every country has that. People say bad things about the U.S., but every country has its problems. Just because the U.S. is the only remaining superpower doesn't mean that it's corrupt or deserves what much of the world is throwing at it. We are not completely innocent, no, but we are not the only ones to blame.

The problem usually is that the US often underestimates anything outside their borders. Besides that, Most Americans are pretty sure The US of A are the best country in the World. Of course other countries have sort a like ideas, only they usually don't try to be the world's police officer. America seems to think the World NEEDS America. Well... it can be used, but the world can survive without the USA I guess.

It's not we (non-americans) don't like the USA. Not at all, usually they have our sympathy. But if we look at the circus you make of the democratic principle of election, how can you expect to be taken seriously?

	15-10-2001 01:45									#25
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quote: no way is USA the most powerful nation in history, 18the British Empire from 1815-1880 was.

Because the US hasn't chosen to expand like rabbits as the British did does not make them less powerful. With the advent of media coverage 24 hours a day, the American influence is much more pervasive around the world than Britain's ever was.

	15-10-2001 01:53									#26
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Your going to get a lot of crap for posting that.


But even a faithful Americuhn like me must admit that it is extremely funny.

I agree, the average American has had the reaction to the situation which is least productive. Furthermore, they've displayed a complete inability to understand the situation that percipates in the Middle East. However, the USA just can't take this sitting down either. It's a two sided coin. Once mother's start getting a lot of MIA reports (inevitable if Ground Troops are sent due to the trouble with fighting somebody on foriegn ground) the country will probably see-saw a bit.

	15-10-2001 01:54									#27
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Hey, like chill out, guys!

	15-10-2001 01:58									#28
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These American threads always stir everyone up. It's entertainment value...

	15-10-2001 02:02									#29
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Please lets not have another pro/anti US fight. It never gets won by anybody.

Object naming is exactly the sort of thing that country specific localisation can handle, if they think it is worth the effort. Americans, English (and people from virtually every other country) could have trouble discussing Monopoly because virtually every square on the board has a different name in the separate editions. People probably know where Mayfair is, but not something like Piccadilly unless they've played the UK version.

Will they bother for Civ? Since the deadline between US and UK release now seems to have shrunk to a mere 2 weeks it seems unlikely unless a lot of it was prepared in advance. It'll give us Yuropeens something to moan about if everything else about Civ3 is great

	15-10-2001 02:05									#30
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Agreed. Object naming is the sort of nice little touch that everyone appreciates. Little things like that go a long way with gamers. If it's not in the game, hopefully it will come out in a mod later...