17-10-2001 06:09									#61
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quote: Originally posted by Executor Is there a limit on the number of spy missions per turn? For if there is, it had better not be one.

Good question. I was thinking you have to pay something, either gold or some resource. This way you are limited by what you could afford.

	17-10-2001 06:38									#62
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This really is excellent news! I was hoping Civ3 would get away from units doing non-conventional work. I've had some doubts about Civ3 but things are looking up.

	17-10-2001 06:39									#63
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quote: Originally posted by Executor What's the difference between forced labor and paid labor? I would assume that hurrying production will always cost money, so is forced labor just cheaper?

My guess is that paid labor is like the old game, and forced labor costs less or nothing but causes a degree of unhappiness.

	17-10-2001 07:58									#64
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by Falconius My guess is that paid labor is like the old game, and forced labor costs less or nothing but causes a degree of unhappiness.

Probably the sort of thing that represents a Stalinist "5 year plan" type thing.

	17-10-2001 08:31									#65
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius My guess is that paid labor is like the old game, and forced labor costs less or nothing but causes a degree of unhappiness.

Forced labor means you can hurry production by forcing your citizens to engage in brutal, backbreaking labor. The unfortunate side effect of this is that some of your citizens will die, and the ones that don't will hold a grudge against you for a long time because of it.

I had a game where I was ambushed by the Romans and I was the Persians. They kept sending Legions after me and I kept having to sacrifice citizens to rush Immortals to defend my city. I refused to let it go without a fight because it was providing me with iron I really needed. Long story short, eventually I repelled the Romans, but I had sacrificed so many citizens that they *really* hated me to the point that the city was constantly in civil disorder. At least the Romans didn't get it though

So you can choose what method a government can use to hurry production (if any): paying money or "sacrificing" citizens, and you can set how many shields equal the life of one citizen, for the purposes of rushing a building or unit.

Dan

	17-10-2001 08:35									#66
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Forced labor means you can hurry production by forcing your citizens to engage in brutal, backbreaking labor. The unfortunate side effect of this is that some of your citizens will die, and the ones that don't will hold a grudge against you for a long time because of it.

See? I said it was a Stalinist 5 year plan.

	17-10-2001 08:52									#67
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS I had a game where I was ambushed by the Romans and I was the Persians. They kept sending Legions after me and I kept having to sacrifice citizens to rush Immortals to defend my city. Dan

Ha! This reminds me of a certain Civ of the Week comment:

"Ironically, they were called Immortals because they would often perish quickly in combat, only to be immediately replaced by fresh troops, giving the illusion that their forces never dropped in strength. Apparently, "Expendables" didn't have quite the same ring to it."

Glad to see you were forced into using the Expendables....... err, I mean Immortals in a fashion that was true to life.

	17-10-2001 10:22									#68
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And some people were saying that Civ 3 wasnt historically accurate enough
Kewl, sounds like an excellent feature, and now we can (more) accurately model the 'evil' government types

	17-10-2001 10:22									#69
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS I had a game where I was ambushed by the Romans and I was the Persians. They kept sending Legions after me and I kept having to sacrifice citizens to rush Immortals to defend my city. I refused to let it go without a fight because it was providing me with iron I really needed. Long story short, eventually I repelled the Romans, but I had sacrificed so many citizens that they *really* hated me to the point that the city was constantly in civil disorder. At least the Romans didn't get it though

You lucky stiff! Getting to repel Romans while we all sit and drool!

	17-10-2001 11:50									#70
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Harlan El Hidalgo, Why then would they have "experience level of Diplomats" and "experience level of Spies" written in the editor? You wouldn't need to break it into those two unit types if it was just done from the diplomacy screen. Otherwise, you could just get more espionage related options as you move further through the tech tree, as I'm sure happens with the diplomacy screen in other ways. Clearly, its just the same as Civ2, even down to some government types having naturally better Spies (as Communism did in Civ2). What's the evidence that there are no Spy or Diplomat units?

Well, this has already been answered by the Firaxians, but for the record I just remember reading it somewhere. Probably in a post from Dan. There's gold in them thar posts!

	17-10-2001 12:20									#71
	Put an end to popups!

El Hidalgo,
I had a feeling based on an earlier post that that was true about Spies and Diplomats, but I thought I'd get emphatic about that to try and squeeze some more info out of Firaxis. Bwa-ha-ha - my fiendish plan worked!

	17-10-2001 12:50									#72
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quote: Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS Diplomats and spies are indeed gone but you can still perform espionage missions. The experience levels for diplomats and spies pertain to bonuses/penalties for diplomatic and spy missions. Thus, if your diplomats are highly experienced, diplomatic missions will be more likely to succeed. Likewise, if your spies are inexperienced, spy missions will be more likely to fail.

So can we train our diplomats/spies in Civ 3 now that they are not actual units?? Or is it determined soley by which government you choose?? Does sending them out on a mission give them experience??

I remember in Civ 2 sending my spies on training missions (sabotage) against the deadly enemy units (caravans) so that i had a group of vet. spies for use in harder missions. Most survived and were promoted to veteran, some 'went missing'. I guess they didnt step out of the caravans way fast enough

	17-10-2001 17:20									#73
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Looking at the gov editor, I can't help but wonder if I can put Fundamentalism back into the game with it. Looks like I can set the free units to 10, like of old, but I don't know if I can impose the 50% science penalty the no citizens unhappy, or the government specific units.

If I can't even customize a gov that much, then this editor is lacking.

	17-10-2001 17:36									#74
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha FIRAXIS Forced labor means you can hurry production by forcing your citizens to engage in brutal, backbreaking labor. The unfortunate side effect of this is that some of your citizens will die, and the ones that don't will hold a grudge against you for a long time because of it. I had a game where I was ambushed by the Romans and I was the Persians. They kept sending Legions after me and I kept having to sacrifice citizens to rush Immortals to defend my city. I refused to let it go without a fight because it was providing me with iron I really needed. Long story short, eventually I repelled the Romans, but I had sacrificed so many citizens that they *really* hated me to the point that the city was constantly in civil disorder. At least the Romans didn't get it though Dan

So I guess its too much to hope for that nerve-stapling is in the game? What about executions of disobedient citizens? That'll teach the others to fall in line.

	17-10-2001 17:45									#75
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I think no one has mentioned this so far: there is an "Eras" menu. I take it that those are "Ancient", "Renaissance", "Industrial", etc., and that the tech tree has as many parts as Eras are in a normal Civ3 game.

Being able to edit these things will probably be the most interesting new feature for scenarios, I think...

	17-10-2001 18:13									#76
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quote: Originally posted by Dan Magaha of FIRAXIS: So you can choose what method a government can use to hurry production (if any): paying money or "sacrificing" citizens, and you can set how many shields equal the life of one citizen, for the purposes of rushing a building or unit.

When you pay money to hurry production, does this still generate hatred from your citizens?

	17-10-2001 19:10									#77
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Nah, you would just get some tired, but well paid citizens running around

	17-10-2001 19:38									#78
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quote: Nah, you would just get some tired, but well paid citizens running around

That depends on how you view overtime.

	17-10-2001 20:06									#79
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin When you pay money to hurry production, does this still generate hatred from your citizens?

No. Your citizens don't mind writing checks, they just have a slight aversion to slow, painful deaths


Dan

	17-10-2001 20:12									#80
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quote: No. Your citizens don't mind writing checks, they just have a slight aversion to slow, painful deaths.

So... when you "forced" your own citizens to work harder at pumping out those Immortals, you either had little money, or just enjoyed the thrill of imposing your iron will on your subjects.

Thanks for the reply Dan!

	17-10-2001 21:54									#81
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin So... when you "forced" your own citizens to work harder at pumping out those Immortals, you either had little money, or just enjoyed the thrill of imposing your iron will on your subjects.

I think one is restricted by government-type also.

The more dictatorial (an economically inefficient) gov-type you have, the more the pay-check alternative is non-viable. And on the other hand: Forced labour under republic/ democracy is most likely a non-workable solution also.

	17-10-2001 22:17									#82
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Ralf I think one is restricted by government-type also. The more dictatorial (an economically inefficient) gov-type you have, the more the pay-check alternative is non-viable. And on the other hand: Forced labour under republic/ democracy is most likely a non-workable solution also.

If that's true, somebody better tell my boss.



I think the editor is covering pretty much everything I could want to see changed, except the Leader portraits. I know, I know...too much to ask...

	17-10-2001 22:47									#83
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quote: Originally quoted by Ralf: The more dictatorial (an economically inefficient) gov-type you have, the more the pay-check alternative is non-viable. And on the other hand: Forced labor under republic/ democracy is most likely a non-workable solution also.

IMO the logical answer is anarchy

	17-10-2001 23:47									#84
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quote: If that's true, somebody better tell my boss.

I know the feeling.

quote: I think the editor is covering pretty much everything I could want to see changed, except the Leader portraits. I know, I know...too much to ask...

They've said time and again that these can be changed. My guess though is that they are NOT going to include the software to make professional looking stuff though.

	17-10-2001 23:59									#85
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by The Templar: My guess though is that they are NOT going to include the software to make professional looking stuff though.

It is rediculous to even expect that you would. They are a game company not Adobe or Corel. Think of the time and money it would take them to create such a thing.

	18-10-2001 00:11									#86
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quote: Originally posted by Jason Beaudoin It is rediculous to even expect that you would. They are a game company not Adobe or Corel. Think of the time and money it would take them to create such a thing.

Anybody that optimistic is crazy - besides if you could get a full Adobe + civ3 for $50, well that would be downright weird.

	18-10-2001 02:36									#87
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf I think one is restricted by government-type also. The more dictatorial (an economically inefficient) gov-type you have, the more the pay-check alternative is non-viable. And on the other hand: Forced labour under republic/ democracy is most likely a non-workable solution also.

Why is it nonworkable in a republic/democracy. Ever Hear of slavery in the US. That's forced labor. Everyone treats democracy like it is pure and good but it has its flaws (don't get me wrong i like it better than a dictorship or anarchy) but people can be quite willing to subjunct poplutions in a democracy as in a totalitarian government. Likewise some dictars do pay their citizens back, although not many so i do see your point - although you should be allowed to be one of those leaders. I'm just annoyed with how democracy is depicting in some of the civ and civ style games as being totally against war and suffering of the human.

	18-10-2001 03:30									#88
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Father Beast Looking at the gov editor, I can't help but wonder if I can put Fundamentalism back into the game with it. Looks like I can set the free units to 10, like of old, but I don't know if I can impose the 50% science penalty the no citizens unhappy, or the government specific units. If I can't even customize a gov that much, then this editor is lacking.

Hmm. Considering we can't see half of the editor - anybody notice that the current tab (probably "Government Types") is not even on the screenshot? That's at least two tabs we can't see! Your science penalty might be in the unseen space.

	18-10-2001 03:49									#89
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Dan - How about for the Pic of the Week you make it a full picture of the the Editor, especially with a different tab? Cheers!

	18-10-2001 06:37									#90
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quote: Originally posted by SITS Dan - How about for the Pic of the Week you make it a full picture of the the Editor, especially with a different tab? Cheers!

Sorry, I already took another request that will be this week's pic. Something tells me you won't be disappointed this week, though...


Dan